Electrostatic's

mantismantis Posts: 15,374
edited September 2003 in 2 Channel Audio
Ok,
here's the deal.Big debate going on as to what to run them with.I know about the Quads and how they sound wonderful with tubes,but Martin Logans some say Solid some say Tubes.For all you 2 channel guys out there can you guys shed some light on the topic?Add to it,get some experience with these types of speakers and why one would work better then the other???

I also talked to a guy about Sunfire amps of today that have the correct amount of current to drive difficult type speakers well like Martin Logan.

Personally I have heard Martin Logan on tubes and Solid state.I have mixed feeling both ways.I kinda favor the Solid state but there is a certain sweetness for a lack of a better term.


Guys..............lets hear it,I would love some opnions.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on

Comments

  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    Personally, I don't think that any speaker, electrostat, ribbon, horn or whatever is designed primarily for tubes or SS. I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Run them with whatever you think sounds better. I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong answer.

    A Sunfire amp has the current to drive any speaker that you care to come up with but, hell, it's just another Bob Carver design.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,431
    edited September 2003
    A coworker of mine runs 4 Mirage OM-5's on a Parasound Halo A21(SS-Amp) and Parasound Halo P3(SS-Pre), he has mentioned no problems or complaints with sound. they are in his studio, and he mixes and records ALOT of music, so I would imagine that he is quite concerned with what his ears are hearing.

    He killed his Yamaha trying to do the same thing, I found that amusing. That is quite a load for any amplifier I am sure.

    EDIT: Added Pre-Amp information.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,374
    edited September 2003
    Troy,
    as a matter of opnion of the general so to speak,whats the word on the street?

    I know you can build your system anyway you see fit.As long as the amp has the ability to play at a volume you enjoy without clipping.

    Tubes is what I thought may have a slight edge with stat speakers but one of my engineering bud's said alittle different due to the design of the tube amp.

    As you might know,I'm not a huge 2 channel guy.But what most people find when driving this type of speaker,what works best.......opnion of many here could outway other factors.Listening it's different.Detail could be said to be somewhat lost but at the gain in smoothness....It's hard to put into words....but thats what I got for now....

    I don't dislike all Bob Carvers stuff.I happen to care for there newer ****.There new 2 channel stuff was impressive when I listened to it the other day.They also have a slight facelift going on.Still looks the same but differnet..........check it .


    out when you get a chance,
    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Tubes all day:). If the speakers are too difficult to drive, then a tube pre and ss amp.
    You will find tube amps that will drive ML's but that many tube watts is very expensive.
    There's nothing like being able to fine tune your system by using different tubes or some combination of tubes.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,374
    edited September 2003
    If the speakers are too difficult to drive, then a tube pre and ss amp.

    now this is intresting.A suggestion of this combo is in the wind and a trail is in order.I'm not a big fan of mixing brands(I really don't exacly why other then changing the sonic signature of the combo.........)

    Tube preamp with a SS amp as I have heard it sounds pretty terrific.Good call here I think.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Scott is doing tube/ss combo. I'm not that picky about mathing brands of pre and amps. While I was fixing the Dynakit, I used the ASL pre and NAD amp. The sound was waaaaay better than using the matching NAD pre.

    What's up Dan? Are you getting some ML's or something?

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    word on the street? What the hell am I? Channel 4's roving man on the street? :rolleyes:

    Again, I wouldn't say that ML's or any other electrostat particularly lends themselves to tubes or not. It's all in how each individual hears it. I like tubes, what little experience I have with them. For purely practical reasons, they don't fit, amp-wise, with my scheme of things.

    When Bob Carver started Sunfire (psssst....don't tell anyone, but a lot of people think that Sunfire amps sound similar to Carver amps) his Sunfire preamp is a tube affair to match with his SS amps to give you the best of both worlds. A friend of mine (the guy who gave me the pair of RT7's that Russ now has) has a Sunfire tube pre and Sunfire amps powering some B&W Matrix 801's......sounds pretty sweet to me.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    Not to start anything but my opinion on the sunfire??? It has all the sound characteristic disadvantages of SS plus the sound characteristic disadvantages of tubes. Kinda adds the wrong way. In real life what you would want is the advantages of tubes plus the advantages of SS.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by TroyD
    A Sunfire amp has the current to drive any speaker that you care to come up with but, hell, it's just another Bob Carver design.
    You know I am a "classic" Carver fan, but I look on Sunfire as THE Carver design. Almost perfect load independent linearity, wonderfully neutral and loads of power all in one package. It's the full realization of the Lightstar Bob started before he left Carver.

    Where's Paul? He needs to be in here...

    Electrostats need power, and as pointed out above that means SS amps. Pre's diferent matter.

    And as far as mixing manufacturers up front, why not? The mix could actually be better.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,374
    edited September 2003
    word on the street? What the hell am I? Channel 4's roving man on the street?
    Very well could be............and so on.

    My opnion of todays Sunfire is very different then Carver of the years past.Opnion yes so let that be..........

    organ,
    A buddy of mine owns Martin Logans and we are trying to figure out what to drive them for a 2 channel rig.He has a 5.1 Logan theater with B&K and it's fine.But 2 channel is very differnet with differnet needs.I don't feel the B&K has what it takes to show off what Martin Logan can sound like,or not sound like maybe better put.

    I perfer Krell and Audio Research driving Martin Logan.Mixing them up could be the way to go.Audio Research pre with 2 power balanced mono's........thoughts,demo's more fun in the line.......

    Mad,
    not a fan of Carver or Sunfire huh???Well not many are.Most people around here bash them harder then Bose.I don't perfer there sound quality with all the systems I have heard them in.Todays Sunfire sounds pretty damn good but I felt it got out classed by Rotel costing much less.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by mantis
    not a fan of Carver or Sunfire huh???Well not many are.Most people around here bash them harder then Bose.
    I don't believe that's true. I don't even believe you believe that's true...

    Most here run DD/ DTS AVR's and that eliminates Carver as an option. Most don't spend $3000 on their AVR and that eliminates the Sunfire Ultimate. So for most, Carver/ Sunfire is simply not a consideration.

    But when you look at the segment of Club members that run separates, especially in 2 ch rigs, I think that Carver amps are well represented.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • organorgan Posts: 5,022
    edited September 2003
    Dan,
    Try the tube forum on audioasylum.com. I'm sure you'll find people running ML's with tube amps. If he's willing to spend big bucks on Krell and Audio Research, then he'll have the $ for a powerful tube amp.

    Maurice
    CD Player: Original CD-A8T
    Receiver: Harman/Kardon HK3390
    Speakers: Polk Audio RT1000p
    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,431
    edited September 2003
    I like Carver, I just don't want to follow the trends.

    Its a great piece, always will be, its classic vintage, bottom line. Sunfire? **** I only know of a bad demo with some bad B&W's....does that mean I think it sucks or B&W's suck...nope, just bad day for demo. And yea they cost a baby or 2...both of them.

    I personally really want to try a Tube Pre w/ SS Amp for the SDA's. That is what I am going to do. I am sure I will like/dislike it when that comes to fruition. How could the sound not be at least real good tho'?? The A/B is being set up at the same time. It may not be fair, but its all I have available. A Sony ES Receiver(Pre) v/s Dedicated Tube Pre?
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    Dan,

    I think you will find that A. madmax owns a few Carver amps, in fact I think that's what he used primarily before he got the tube bug. and B. I think you are the only one on the forum who doesn't like Carver.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,431
    edited September 2003
    I would have bought a Carver in a heartbeat, had I been able to find one at the time.
  • gidrahgidrah Posts: 3,031
    edited September 2003
    Tell your buddy to look into a decent hybrid. Then again it's a personal taste thing, kinda like Carver/Sunfire. I've only ever owned one Carver amp. I'm not currently using it, but it's not going anywhere either.
    Make it Funky! :)
  • wallstreetwallstreet Posts: 1,405
    edited September 2003
    Old Mark Levinson (signed) amps.
    Fronts - LS-90
    Center - CS-400i
    Sides - FX-1000
    Rears - AB755 (2)
    Sub - SVS 25-31 PC-Plus
    Amp - B&K AVR317
  • cmy330gocmy330go Posts: 2,324
    edited September 2003
    I can't speak from personal experience. But from what I have read, Parasound makes some really nice amps for the money. Their standard HCA series amps are fairly inexpensive yet still designed by John Curl and receive very nice reviews. Their Halo series from what I hear is really great stuff, but at that point they start to get a little expensive.

    Once again this is just what I have read. Might be worth checking out.

    Later
    HT
    Mits WD-65737, DirecTV, Oppo DV-970HD, XBOX ONE, Yamaha RX-A1030, Parasound Halo A23, Rotel RB-985, Music Hall MMF-7, Parasound PPH-100, LSi-15, LSi-C, LSi-FX, LSi-7, PSW-1000, Monster HTS2600

    2 CH
    Parasound Halo P3, Parasound Halo A21, Sutherland Ph.D, VPI Classic 3 w/ 3D arm & Soundsmith Aida Cartridge, Arcam CD72T, B&W 802 S3, Monster HTS2500,
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,431
    edited September 2003
    I own two Parasounds now...they are solid. I can't wait to bridge them at 630w on F1Nut's SDA 2.3TL's...hehe

    Bring the Pain!
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    Tube amps do not seem very good for speakers that require high current. They tend to run out of gas real soon (from my experience with the LSi series). I have only tried two differt brands though. As for Carver/Sunfire, I have used several carvers and the sunfire 300. The sunfire is OK but I think the older ones are better, even though they are a little clinical sounding. They are the way to go if you really need a really high current amp. I think most people on this forum like them but I'm not sure. I like them, just not really the sunfire for two channel if I'm driving something that tubes could drive.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    Originally posted by wallstreet
    Old Mark Levinson (signed) amps.

    I just read an article (courtesy of Russ) on how Brer Carver built his m1.5t to sound both objectively and subjectively indistinguishable from Levinson ML-2 monoblocks.....damn good reading.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • madmaxmadmax Posts: 12,438
    edited September 2003
    Is that Bobs brother?
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,638
    edited September 2003
    yeah, that's it!

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • tonyv1tonyv1 Posts: 365
    edited September 2003
    I'm using a Parasound HCA 1500A (SS amp) with an Anthem PRE 2L Special Edition (tube pre) to drive my MG 12s. The great part of the the tube pre is being able to roll in different tubes for a different sound. I'm using Brimar CV5358, tried the Sovtek 6922 strong bottom end, but not as open and the midrange was lacking.
    There's a used Parasound HCA 3500 at my local dealer that I'm drooling over for only $1430 ($2195 retail). A modified 3500 was the base unit for JC-1.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,374
    edited September 2003
    I think it's going to come down to trying some B&K monoblock to start.
    The preamp is most likely going to be this Vaccum tube I forget the model now,it's used at my buddies store in mint cond with all new tubes.It's nice sounding.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,371
    edited September 2003
    I wouldnt rule out the Adcom Mono Blocks, they go for 600-700 a pair on EBay. 300 watts of real man power. Would not rule that out...
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,431
    edited September 2003
    Tony - Nice to see another Parasound fan. I am also going the tube pre-amp route. I wanted something very simple, so it looks like a AES AE-3. The changing of tubes has really piqued my interest. I would like to know more of your opinions on what you have used thus far. Drop me a line at [email protected] at your leisure.
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