Entering the World of Tubes

audiocr381ve

The only experience I have with tubes other than playing the drums with guitarists who have tube guitar amplifiers, is owning a little Yaqin tube buffer a couple of years ago in my 2 channel system. That experience left a sour taste in my mouth.

I've been chatting with an audio buddy of mine who highly recommended a tube integrated amplifier, the Onix SP3 MkII for my AV123 Strata Minis. This is a guy who has owned a lot of gear, and has also had a setup similar to mine (Emotiva gear). He couldn't be more clear when explaining to me that this little tube integrated would blow my current system out of the water which is strictly 2 channel.

I've been doing a lot of research and I'm a bit overwhelmed by the whole tube rolling thing, but it looks fun.

Just thought I'd share with you guys who are hard core about tubes that I'll be joining the family! Any input or advice for a complete newb entering the tube world would be appreciated! (No wise cracks! )

rromeo923

I just bought a Yaqin MC-10L and it is the best $$$ I have ever spent on audio equip.
I had formerly about $5000 tied up in pre amp and amp (seven channel). Well this 2 channel tube amp absolutely blows them away.
Get the tube amp and dont look back. I can't believe it took me this long.

Joe08867

OK, don't get mad but rolling tubes takes patience. And to be honest one of the best guys to talk to is H9. There are a few on hear that know a ton about tubes. But you have to decide if you actually plan on listening.

PS Tubes take time to break in. I think you are heading in the right direction but now is when patience will really be needed.

Just so you know there is no tone controls on the Onix, so turning the bass up to 11 isn't going to happen.

The combo should work well as the mini's can be hot sounding. The Onix should calm that down.

Ern Dog

Congrats!!!!

Be sure to try some NOS tubes. They costs more, but they sound great. Also play around with some tube dampers. I use the red rings and they do the job nicely. Always handle the tubes with gloves or something. Always have some spares for when a tube dies. You don't want to be caught with your pants down. Lastly, tube rolling is key to finding the right match or synergy.

heiney9

Shane, the Onix will certainly give you a taste of tubes, but that particular unit has a much more solid state type of presentation vs. something that sounds like full blown tubes. I am not knocking it (I know you are the sensitive type) but that was one of the reasons I didn't buy the Onix.

You are liable to go deep down the rabbit hole with tubes, because the magic, the fun, the enjoyment of tube gear is in rolling all kinds of various tubes. This can be both frustrating and exhilirating all at the same time and most of all it takes Patience, and expendable cash. I have as much or more in my tube stash as I have in all my tube gear. I'd say it's approaching $1K in tubes. That is extreme, but I have 4 pieces of tube gear to buy tubes for and some of my pairs of tubes are TOTL.

IMO, if one isn't really going to put more effort than plopping a piece of tube gear on a shelf and nothing more, there is no point in getting into tubes. It'll be a waste and perhaps even leave a negative impression.

Realize everytime you turn it on, it will take about 45-60 minutes to warm up and hit it's sweet spot. Realize it needs to be kept away from small fingers. Realize the tubes that are shipped with it are mediocre at best compared to what's available. Realize tubes can be extremely rewarding but it takes, time and patience and willingness to experiment and spend the time listening.

That's my take on it and I am a hardcore tube head, but I wasn't all that long ago. The bug bit me.........and bit me HARD.

H9

marvda1

just got one of these in and the sound is pretty good. waiting to get a handle on it's final sound before i start rolling.
http://www.china-highend-hifi.com/prod01123412422621345223.htm

audiocr381ve

I'm going to give this one so time for sure. Everything I've read about tubes makes me think I've taken a huge step in the right direction to getting the sound I'm looking for. The reason I loved my Marantz 2245 so much wasn't because it was sonically superior to my other gear, it just had a weird way of pulling me in to the music. I'm really hoping this piece of equipment has the same effect.

Thanks for the insight guys. H9, Joe, I hear ya loud and clear dudes.

heiney9

audiocr381ve wrote: »

The reason I loved my Marantz 2245 so much wasn't because it was sonically superior to my other gear, it just had a weird way of pulling me in to the music. I'm really hoping this piece of equipment has the same effect.

Thanks for the insight guys. H9, Joe, I hear ya loud and clear dudes.

I think it will because that's what tubes have that many SS pieces lack, for the last time I'll say this......Patience (think the Guns-n-Roses song).

H9

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

I think it will because that's what tubes have that many SS pieces lack, for the last time I'll say this......Patience (think the Guns-n-Roses song).

H9

Right on, I hear the message loud n' clear. I've never had such a high expectation for a piece of gear. I think it's gonna deliver the goods too!

I'm stoked. (Socal language)

megasat16

Shane,

I usually stayed out of your threads but what you are doing; you'll go broke before you know it. And your wife will beat the hell out of you.

You should just concentrate on one path you choose and consider to improve with better electronics or better speaker. You are now walking in the circle of maze with no end in sight.

Tubes give you one thing but takes away the other. If you don't compare a good tube based electronics with a good transistor based electronics, you won't likely figure out what tubes are missing.

Good Luck in whatever you are trying to achieve!

audiocr381ve

megasat16 wrote: »

Shane,

I usually stayed out of your threads but what you are doing; you'll go broke before you know it. And your wife will beat the hell out of you.

You should just concentrate on one path you choose and consider to improve with better electronics or better speaker. You are now walking in the circle of maze with no end in sight.

Tubes give you one thing but takes away the other. If you don't compare a good tube based electronics with a good transistor based electronics, you won't likely figure out what tubes are missing.

Good Luck in whatever you are trying to achieve!

Hey bro, thanks for the feedback, honestly. I completely get the cons of tubes, and those things aren't nearly as important to me as "feeling" the music. Based on everything I've read, I seem like the perfect candidate for tubes, lol.

I totally admit that I've gone crazy with this hobby for the past 2-3 years trying to achieve different things and sounds. I feel like I'm rounding out the last lap and settling into a system that I'll be content with. The new speakers have gotten me sooo much closer.

heiney9

I agree with James, but tubes don't take anything away if you find what you like. But that is James opinion and I respect it. I just don't find where tubes take anything away. It would be interesting to hear about James' experiences with all kinds of tubes and tube gear to see how he formed his opinion. He always says SS is better than tubes but I don't think I;ve ever read about a detailed path he's taken to discover that.

H9

cnh

I have to agree with Brock on this one although I haven't gotten into that Holy Grail Tube rolling mentality quite yet.

In my case, I had a chance to hear the gear in its stock form--and yes with the cheap Chinese tubes in place. And even in that state it was better than most standard SS equipment I had heard. Perhaps not by 'much' but it definitely had that 'tube' sound which is what people are looking for. Now I can only imagine what rolling some tubes will do to what sounds quite reasonable to begin with?

Is there good SS gear that can compete...sure to an extent, but you'll have to pay for it and up the debt ceiling--look for simple designs, quality materials, class A and all that--it can probably be as exhausting as searching for the 'magic' tube so 'patience' is something that does not just apply to tube equipment. Look at some of the showcases of some of the old timers on this site--or how often Doro sells and switches out pieces, for example!

My advice is, get your 'ears' on the gear 'before' you purchase anything. That way, even with the stock tubes you'll know you have something that you like and can work with!

cnh

heiney9

If it were me I'd keep the 1C's and sell the Strata's. SDA's, especially when upgraded LOVE tube gear, different planet kind of love.

H9

heiney9

FWIW, I was EXACTLY like James in my opinion about tubes, until I actually dove in head first. Man I was an idiot for not doing it sooner, but the path has been varied, costly and time consuming, but after 2 years of my own experimenting I've finally settled on the sound. But, I still love to roll different tubes occasionally just to mix things up. I wouldn't turn the clock back for any reason.

H9

Poee7R

heiney9 wrote: »

that particular unit has a much more solid state type of presentation vs. something that sounds like full blown tubes. I am not knocking it (I know you are the sensitive type) but that was one of the reasons I didn't buy the Onix.H9

Im guessing you havent listened to one yet?


Dave

heiney9

Poee7R wrote: »

Im guessing you havent listened to one yet?


Dave

I have, and I stand by my comment. The SP3 is very well built and quiet and has some good grunt. It's just not the tubiest of tube amps and you'd never mistake it for something with EL34's, etc. It might be a very minor quibble.

For me it's about preferences, and while the SP3 was in my list, I found others that were less $$$, and based on reviews and the small amount of time I spent with it (not in my rig), the others are preferred. I'd love an opportunity to demo it again.

H9

factorz

Ok so this might be a dumb question, but how do tubes and solid state differ when it comes to power. If a speaker can take 500W solid state what would that equal in tube power?

heiney9

factorz wrote: »

ok so this might be a dumb question, but how do tubes and solid state differ when it comes to power. If a speaker can take 500w solid state what would that equal in tube power?

500w

h9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

He always says SS is better than tubes but I don't think I;ve ever read about a detailed path he's taken to discover that.

H9

Brock,

Thanks for the nicer post. I did try a few Tube Pre and Amps with a few Tubes.

There are threads and posts here with my Tube gears purchases. I don't like to name "names".

IMO with Tube Gears, you have two variables (i.e. the gear that is sensitive to tube rolling and the tubes you are using). With the SS Gears, you only have one variable. If you don't like the SS gear, you simply move on to the next.

I think dealing with two issues is worse than dealing with one issue. Your opinions may differ. By the time you done rolling tubes, you may have more money invested in Tubes than the gear itself like you have said.

But it's probably not a bad investment. I also have a stash of tubes that's now worth more than I've paid for. It's the only positive move I did with some Tube Pre.

Comparing used SS gear to used Tube gear, Tubes Gears get ridiculously expensive for the performance I like.

Anyway, I found my recent discovery of the $100 SS preamp better sounding and flatter FR than the $300 Tube Preamp with the NOS Tele 12AX7 in it.

heiney9

James, it's never my intent not to be nice in my posts. All of the things you mention abbout tubes are most of what I love about them, that's why I told Shane about frustration to exhiliration. Don't get me wrong I still love me some SS amplifier. I just have found extreme aural pleasure using a tube pre-amp with a stellar SS amplifier. And while I probably could have been extremely content a long time ago, the hunt for the tubes, the research on tubes and the actual listening evaluation is extremely fun for me.

I have stated several times I think for me the research and the hunt for the tubes is the most fun sometimes, especially if you find a really stellar deal. :biggrin:

factorz

heiney9 wrote: »

500w

h9

Ok maybe I didn't ask the question right. If I was looking at something like the Rogue Titan which is rated 55wpc is it going drive a speaker the same as a SS rated 500wpc?

Poee7R

heiney9 wrote: »

I have, and I stand by my comment. The SP3 is very well built and quiet and has some good grunt. It's just not the tubiest of tube amps and you'd never mistake it for something with EL34's, etc. It might be a very minor quibble.

For me it's about preferences, and while the SP3 was in my list, I found others that were less $$$, and based on reviews and the small amount of time I spent with it (not in my rig), the others are preferred. I'd love an opportunity to demo it again.

H9

Well I had a well written response ready, that I somehow deleted. Stupid smart phone's.

Right on, Ive never personally heard one sound SS like, granted the stock tube's only stayed in long enough to make sure everything biased and worked properly, but I would say mine sounds quite SET like with the 350b's in it. SET that can push a 6ft pair of stats like one wouldnt believe. Yes one needs 200wpc eh?

But no worries, we all like different stuff, just wanted to voice an opposing side of the SS comment. Ive just yet to hear it that way, even after owning one for a few years now.


Dave

Poee7R

factorz wrote: »

Ok maybe I didn't ask the question right. If I was looking at something like the Rogue Titan which is rated 55wpc is it going drive a speaker the same as a SS rated 500wpc?

Dont get caught up in the numbers, quality vs quantity is the old mantra.

Really depends in the speakers sensitivity and impendence, as to how well it will work with lower wattage ratings. To give you an idea Im probably running 35 wpc or so, but with my current speakers, its more than enough for my listening room (office). The speakers Im currently running are Polk LSi9's, and the SP3 has zero trouble withem. Now If it were a large room, with open ceilings etc, then I may say the opposite. But as it is now, 12 o'clock on the dial can run you out of the room.

As one fella said, "Everything Matters".


Dave

cubdog

I had an SP3 paired with Cornwalls for about 5 years. It's a nice well built amp for the money but I was never in love with it's sound. When the Cornwalls went so did the SP3. I can report however that the new owner loves it.

cubdog

F1nut

It'll be for sale one week after it arrives.

audiocr381ve

F1nut wrote: »

It'll be for sale one week after it arrives.

Thanks for contributing to the thread like everyone else is.

factorz

Poee7R wrote: »

Dont get caught up in the numbers, quality vs quantity is the old mantra.

Really depends in the speakers sensitivity and impendence, as to how well it will work with lower wattage ratings. To give you an idea Im probably running 35 wpc or so, but with my current speakers, its more than enough for my listening room (office). The speakers Im currently running are Polk LSi9's, and the SP3 has zero trouble withem. Now If it were a large room, with open ceilings etc, then I may say the opposite. But as it is now, 12 o'clock on the dial can run you out of the room.

As one fella said, "Everything Matters".


Dave

So how does one find out sensitivity and impendence? I run some RTA-12C so if I ever want to get tubes would it be listed in the speakers manual?

Poee7R

Im not sure where the manual may be posted. But knowing some of the Polk speakers of the time, I assume they're 8ohm and probably around the 90db mark. I'd say you're good to go on the Rogue, as long as the room isnt too large.

Would probably sound pretty good, Rogue makes nice gear.


Dave

inspiredsports

audiocr381ve wrote: »

Entering the World of Tubes

This should prove to be interesting.

factorz

Poee7R wrote: »

Im not sure where the manual may be posted. But knowing some of the Polk speakers of the time, I assume they're 8ohm and probably around the 90db mark. I'd say you're good to go on the Rogue, as long as the room isnt too large.

Would probably sound pretty good, Rogue makes nice gear.


Dave

According to the manual I found it's 4ohm, but I am sure you are right about the Rogue being enough. Nothing I am going to do right now, but tubes have always seemed interesting.