LSiM 707 Review

ZLTFUL

*facepalm*
There is a difference between "being able to drive a speaker" and actually providing a good quality high current supply of power to a speaker.
Sure...your TV's amp can drive those TSi500s but it is not doing it efficiently, it is not doing it cleanly and it is not doing it properly.

Let's use a car analogy...it would be like yanking the V10 out of a Murcielago and replacing it with a Toyota I4...the car is still a Lamborghini and you can still drive it but it is not being driven to its fullest potential.

falconcry72

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Let's use a car analogy...it would be like yanking the V10 out of a Murcielago and replacing it with a Toyota I4...the car is still a Lamborghini and you can still drive it but it is not being driven to its fullest potential.

good analogy.

Good speakers deserve good amps. The better the speakers, the better the amps they deserve. This is not an overly complicated concept.

NutsAndBolts

I have to disagree. It depends on what you want out of the car. For instance speed vs handling, comfort vs grip, gas mileage etc. On a twisty road a car with a small engine but great handling draw rings around a car with a large engine and bad handling. The TV's 18W amps were rocking the speakers and they sounded as good as it could with the TSI500s. It would not have made any difference if I was putting those 18watts in with the TV's amp or from an amp that is rated at 500/1000W. This is physics. The measure of power put into the speaker is not a matter of how much more reserve power the amp has (providing the amp is not clipping) but it is a matter of the output signal vs the impedance of the speakers. Now come to think of it, I am pretty sure the TV's amps are underrated (Pioneer tends to do this with all their output ratings), it was probably more like 40W or even more. Now your 500/1000W amp can probably burn out these speakers, the TV's amp cannot. But that is not the argument here. The question is, can I produce good quality sound with a 140W of SC-37 on the LSIM 707 or RTI A9s, or not. I am saying you can, up to the power level of the amp. You cannot push the speakers beyond the power capability of the amp, but it will produce good quality sound providing you are not going beyond the load limits, for instance using 4 Ohm on an 8 Ohm amp.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

I have to disagree. It depends on what you want out of the car. For instance speed vs handling, comfort vs grip, gas mileage etc. On a twisty road a car with a small engine but great handling draw rings around a car with a large engine and bad handling. The TV's 18W amps were rocking the speakers and they sounded as good as it could with the TSI500s. It would not have made any difference if I was putting those 18watts in with the TV's amp or from an amp that is rated at 500/1000W. This is physics. The measure of power put into the speaker is not a matter of how much more reserve power the amp has (providing the amp is not clipping) but it is a matter of the output signal vs the impedance of the speakers. Now come to think of it, I am pretty sure the TV's amps are underrated (Pioneer tends to do this with all their output ratings), it was probably more like 40W or even more. Now your 500/1000W amp can probably burn out these speakers, the TV's amp cannot. But that is not the argument here. The question is, can I produce good quality sound with a 140W of SC-37 on the LSIM 707 or RTI A9s, or not. I am saying you can, up to the power level of the amp. You cannot push the speakers beyond the power capability of the amp, but it will produce good quality sound providing you are not going beyond the load limits, for instance using 4 Ohm on an 8 Ohm amp.

The Lamborghini comparison may have been a little misleading for you, because it implies we were talking about quantity of watts over quality of watts. We were talking about quality, not quantity. We are not talking about how loud an amp can make your speakers, we're talking about how good a quality amp can sound, even at very low listening levels. All amps sound different. Many times, low-wattage SET or tubed amps sound better than high-wattage solid-state amps. Other times, depending on design and QUALITY, a high-wattage solid-state amp will sound better. All amps sound different. If you think that this statement is true:

It would not have made any difference if I was putting those 18watts in with the TV's amp or from an amp that is rated at 500/1000W.

...then you don't get it. It's not about the quantity of watts that the other amp is rated at; it's about the quality. Signal to Noise Ratio, Dynamic Headroom, Distortion, Current Capacity.... finesse. If you can't hear a difference between amps, consider yourself and your wallet very lucky. I'm assuming, however, that you have not had the chance to try different power amps compared to the internal amps in that SC-37. Until you try it for yourself and let your own ears be the judge, your argument for the physics of electricity doesn't go very far.

Your SC-37 will produce VERY GOOD sound out of either of those speakers. A higher quality external power amp (whether rated at higher or lower wattage) will produce better sound. The LSiM's need a higher quality amp than the internal amps in your SC-37 to sound their best.

NutsAndBolts

Your SC-37 will produce very good sound out of either of those speakers.

Well then what are we arguing here? That is my assertion. Yes I can spend $$$ on another amp that has 0.01% less 3rd harmonic distortion. But I will not be able to hear it at the sound level I use my set up. My objection was against the claim that you cannot test the 707 with SC-37 (and the fact that he said he wants to break in the power cable :eek:) Then you guys jumped in with the V10 and I4s.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

...But I will not be able to hear it at the sound level I use my set up...

Don't be so sure about that. You can get a pretty nice 2-channel power amp, that will sound NOTICEABLY better than your receiver, for 500 bucks... which sounds pretty cheap to me when you're looking at speakers that retail for $4k. Think of it this way: that extra 500-800 bucks on a sweet power amp is really an investment to help you get as much quality as possible out of those $4k speakers. Some people would argue that it's a waste of money to run those speakers off that receiver, because you'll never hear what they're capable of... and you know us, we just HATE wasting money around here.

On a serious note, I've noticed some real improvement with good external amplification at lower listening levels.

NutsAndBolts

falconcry72 wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. You can get a pretty nice 2-channel power amp, that will sound NOTICEABLY better than your receiver, for 500 bucks... which sounds pretty cheap to me when you're looking at speakers that retail for $4k. Think of it this way: that extra 500-800 bucks on a sweet power amp is really an investment to help you get as much quality as possible out of those $4k speakers. Some people would argue that it's a waste of money to run those speakers off that receiver, because you'll never hear what they're capable of... and you know us, we just HATE wasting money around here.

On a serious note, I've noticed some real improvement with good external amplification at lower listening levels.

Can you point out the deficiencies of the SC-37 vs the $500 amp you talk about? What are the differences in spec that would make it worthwhile spending $500 and using up additional power. I am not for wasting money for sure, I even consider the power usage of the equipment I have. I am not sold on the 707s. I am inclined to believe Jim regarding the 703 vs 707s. As it happens I sold the TSI500s and put my TSI200 as the front speakers and they sound a lot better than the TSi500s. So now I am reading up more and will goto a store where have these speakers to listen a few times before I commit. But I am not budgeting on getting amps. I am very happy with the SC-37s 140W p/c and I bi-amp the fronts. So that is plenty power and quality for me.

nme medic

Great Review!!

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

Can you point out the deficiencies of the SC-37 vs the $500 amp you talk about?

At the moment I was talking about a Parasound HCA-1500a, but, Dude, you gotta use YOUR OWN EARS, not your eyes. PM Mantis, he is a Pioneer dealer and he LOVES the SC's and their ICE amps... but even he knows (first hand) the benefits of real power.

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

I am very happy with the SC-37s 140W p/c and I bi-amp the fronts. So that is plenty power and quality for me.

Good, that's great, but please quit citing the number of watts. You're missing the point. Oh and by the way biamping with that receiver is completely pointless.


I'm hoping that one day you'll try a real amp and say "wow", but you seem pretty certain about your opinion... which was developed purely through speculation and reading, as opposed to actually LISTENING to different amps. Good luck on your journey... but it's going to be a short one if you continue to be this closed-minded.


I mean, you seem a little hypocritical to me. You bought a VERY NICE receiver. A receiver that cost A LOT MORE than other receivers. Why? Because you believed it (and its AMPS) would SOUND BETTER than a lesser receiver! So why, then, would a better external amp not sound better than YOUR receiver? Is your sc37 the exact perfect point in the audio spectrum where anything less expensive sounds bad but anything more expensive is a waste of money? lol. That's silly!


Your points are based on speculation. I'm speaking from experience with many different amps and receivers.

NutsAndBolts

falconcry72 wrote: »

At the moment I was talking about a Parasound HCA-1500a, but, Dude, you gotta use YOUR OWN EARS, not your eyes. PM Mantis, he is a Pioneer dealer and he LOVES the SC's and their ICE amps... but even he knows (first hand) the benefits of real power.

I am going by what I hear, not by what I read in a spec. I do not even know the THD for SC-37. I am confident it is pretty decent on paper and my ears do not disagree.

Good, that's great, but please quit citing the number of watts. You're missing the point. Oh and by the way biamping with that receiver is completely pointless.

Well I have never been concerned over the power rating of the amp. I quoted 140w because it got brought up here by folks who are on your camp re: separate amp.

Why would bi-amping be pointless? I have two outputs doing nothing, I can drive the HF with the spare ones. Why would that be pointless?

I'm hoping that one day you'll try a real amp and say "wow", but you seem pretty certain about your opinion... which was developed purely through speculation and reading, as opposed to actually LISTENING to different amps. Good luck on your journey... but it's going to be a short one if you continue to be this closed-minded.

As it happens I regularly listen to music and watch movies at my friends house. He has separate amps (I recall the cost being in $5000 or so for each amp, he has two) and my ears do not tell any difference to what I hear from my SC-37. May be my hearing is not so good. Or may be he has a bad set up (it was installed professionally) or for me there is no difference. After all, it is subjective.

I mean, you seem a little hypocritical to me. You bought a VERY NICE receiver. A receiver that cost A LOT MORE than other receivers. Why? Because you believed it (and its AMPS) would SOUND BETTER than a lesser receiver! So why, then, would a better external amp not sound better than YOUR receiver? Is your sc37 the exact perfect point in the audio spectrum where anything less expensive sounds bad but anything more expensive is a waste of money? lol. That's silly!

I bought SC-37 because of a number of things, yes I think it has high quality audio output, has enough HDMI inputs etc. Let me try to make my point again. I do not think an external amp is going to make a difference to me. See my comments about my friends set up above. And how much better is the amp you are referring to? Can I see a spec to have some kind of an idea on how much better it is?

Your points are based on speculation. I'm speaking from experience with many different amps and receivers.

Says you and you are wrong. I have heard a few amps and serious HT and music set ups. I am not speculating. In fact I was kind of suggesting you were, that is why I asked for spec comparison. What I hear and what I like may not be sound good to another person. Like I said, it is subjective. But lab tests should bare the quality differences. Whether I or someone else can hear those differences is another thing.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

...May be my hearing is not so good...

Bingo.

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

Can I see a spec to have some kind of an idea on how much better it is?

You don't get it.

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

...lab tests should bare the quality differences.

You definitely don't get it.

wallstreet

I test ran the 707 for a couple of days with my B&K 150x7 and thoroughly enjoyed the audio experience. I believe you will thoroughly enjoy the audio experience with your Pioneer SC 37.

ken brydson

DSkip wrote: »

Looks like lasagna came out to play with ravioli.

Nuts, you don't get it and you should be happy that you don't. I think we all wish we didn't get it.

Where's the "like" button???

NutsAndBolts

falconcry72 wrote: »

Bingo.

I was being humble and open minded. I do not think there is anything wrong with my hearing.

You know what would be the proof of the pudding? If a set of speakers, say the 707s were set up with two different amps, one a decent A/V receiver and the other with separate $500 amp in the same room with good switches where you can switch between one amp or the other. Both amps set to same effective volume level, playing the same source. I wonder how many of those of you who insist on external amp can tell the difference on a blind test? May be someone here can set this up and we can all pile in guess which is which. I will say it now, I probably cannot tell them apart.

You don't get it.

Yo got it wrong. "I do not hear it".

And apparently specs do not matter, but to me that is based on controlled environment and it is a reliable way to measure performance, it removes my questionable ears out of the loop. Anyhow I will stick with my SC-37. And for the LSIM 707s, I am cooling off from them. May be hearing them at Magnolia will change my mind.

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

Looks like lasagna came out to play with ravioli.

Nuts, you don't get it and you should be happy that you don't. I think we all wish we didn't get it.

LMFAO !!!!

You do realize comments like this at my age put me at risk of a heart attack.

TNHNDYMAN

I think when the bolts went thru his nuts, his primal scream permanently damaged his hearing and good sense.

Then again he may have a pair of 68' Plymouth Valiant hubcaps in his earlobes and the 2nd order diffraction of the standing waves bouncing off his ears is really hard to solve without that MCACC eq added to the mix.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

...You know what would be the proof of the pudding? If a set of speakers, say the 707s were set up with two different amps, one a decent A/V receiver and the other with separate $500 amp in the same room with good switches where you can switch between one amp or the other. Both amps set to same effective volume level, playing the same source.

LOL. DUDE! This is what we do! ALL THE TIME!!!

Going over to your buddy's house and hearing his amps on his setup does not teach you anything about how amps sound. You have to try different amps, in YOUR OWN setup, on YOUR OWN speakers, and in YOUR OWN room.

This is what we do! All the time!

Guess how many different amps/receivers I've A/B'd using this method in the last 2 year time frame?

Fourteen!

That's right fourteen different power amplifiers have come in and out of my door purely so that I could listen to them CRITICALLY, on MY GEAR, in MY ROOM, so that I would really fully understand their differences in sound. Here's a list:

2-channel amps:

- Adcom GFA-545
- Adcom GFA-5802
- Yamaha M60
- Yamaha M80
- Yamaha MX-1000u
- Parasound HCA-2200ii
- Krell KAV-2200
- Balanced Audio Technology VK-500 (the current king)

5 Channel Amps:

- Emotiva XPA-5
- Rotel RMB-1095
- Sherwood somethin

Receivers:

- Denon 3805
- Onkyo TX-NR805
- Yamaha RX somethin

Keep in mind, this does not include preamps, DAC's, USB converters, CD players, cables, or speakers ... LOL ... all of which I also compare regularly.


Until you do some real A/B'ing in your own setup, you're not going to get it.

Some of the differences can be dramatic, other times it's subtle. It's like evaluating fine wine, or food, or craftsmanship... bigger differences can be appreciated by most people, smaller differences take a more trained ear, nose, or tongue to be appreciated.

Again... just get a good amp in your house one of these days, play around with it for a few weeks, and see what YOU think. Right now, you don't even know what you think because you've never done it!

This doesn't have to cost any money! Find a good deal on a used piece, and sell it if you don't want to keep it! I almost ALWAYS break even, and sometimes I even make money.

NutsAndBolts

DSkip wrote: »

Nuts, the issue with these topics is that those who "don't get it" get offended. It's not meant as a derogatory statement, it just is what it is. It takes a lot of critical listening with a lot of different setups for someone to get it. I bet your system sounds amazing as it is. Given the components, there's no reason it shouldn't. That isn't to say that a separate amp wouldn't increase your sound quality though. Whether you could perceive the differences or not is up for debate, but a quality amp would most definitely improve your fidelity.

Welcome to the forum. Stay a while and listen.

Thank you Skip. I am not offended by "do not get it" comments. I am not offended by silly personal attacks either, it shows how shallow they are when people start making personal attacks. I appreciate your comments, allowing me to have a differing view without belittling or talking down. Yes, my system sounds great, but since I moved into a larger house, my HT room is being much larger I am looking to upgrade my speakers. I got pretty good money for my entry level TSI500s. I am looking to move up the Polk flagship models. If I am somehow convinced I need separate amps I will have the rack space for them. My friend keeps telling me I need it and will change my mind. So far I am not convinced. But like I said, I am open minded. I am happy to listen and consider all points of view on this.

NutsAndBolts

falconcry72 wrote: »

LOL. DUDE! This is what we do! ALL THE TIME!!!

Going over to your buddy's house and hearing his amps on his setup does not teach you anything about how amps sound. You have to try different amps, in YOUR OWN setup, on YOUR OWN speakers, and in YOUR OWN room.

This is what we do! All the time!

Guess how many different amps/receivers I've A/B'd using this method in the last 2 year time frame?

Fourteen!

That's right fourteen different power amplifiers have come in and out of my door purely so that I could listen to them CRITICALLY, on MY GEAR, in MY ROOM, so that I would really fully understand their differences in sound. Here's a list:

2-channel amps:

- Adcom GFA-545
- Adcom GFA-5802
- Yamaha M60
- Yamaha M80
- Yamaha MX-1000u
- Parasound HCA-2200ii
- Krell KAV-2200
- Balanced Audio Technology VK-500 (the current king)

5 Channel Amps:

- Emotiva XPA-5
- Rotel RMB-1095
- Sherwood somethin

Receivers:

- Denon 3805
- Onkyo TX-NR805
- Yamaha RX somethin

Keep in mind, this does not include preamps, DAC's, USB converters, CD players, cables, or speakers ... LOL ... all of which I also compare regularly.


Until you do some real A/B'ing in your own setup, you're not going to get it.

Some of the differences can be dramatic, other times it's subtle. It's like evaluating fine wine, or food, or craftsmanship... bigger differences can be appreciated by most people, smaller differences take a more trained ear, nose, or tongue to be appreciated.

Again... just get a good amp in your house one of these days, play around with it for a few weeks, and see what YOU think. Right now, you don't even know what you think because you've never done it!

This doesn't have to cost any money! Find a good deal on a used piece, and sell it if you don't want to keep it! I almost ALWAYS break even, and sometimes I even make money.

I had not thought of doing this in my own HT room. Good idea. I will look into it. May be I will convince my buddy to part with his amps for a day or so. If not I can buy an amp. But first I need to listen to the 707s and decide what front speakers I want.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

I had not thought of doing this in my own HT room. Good idea. I will look into it. May be I will convince my buddy to part with his amps for a day or so. If not I can buy an amp. But first I need to listen to the 707s and decide what front speakers I want.

OK enough about amps... onto your fronts...

I've owned all the LSiM's. It is my opinion that the 707's are the best performing, but the 703's are the best value. I only decided to keep the 703's. The magic of the LSiM's is in the midrange and treble, which they all do equally well. I'd recommend going 703 plus dual subs... that setup will blow the socks off the 707's on their own, and cost less. I went 703's plus dual SVS PC12-NSD subs, and it cost me less than either the 705's or 707's on their own would have cost. Plus your SC37 will have an easier time driving the 703's than the 707's.

Jhayman

Nice.....

ZLTFUL wrote: »

It appears that someone is trying to steal that "Troll of the Year" title away from JHyman...

NutsAndBolts

falconcry72 wrote: »

OK enough about amps... onto your fronts...

I've owned all the LSiM's. It is my opinion that the 707's are the best performing, but the 703's are the best value. I only decided to keep the 703's. The magic of the LSiM's is in the midrange and treble, which they all do equally well. I'd recommend going 703 plus dual subs... that setup will blow the socks off the 707's on their own, and cost less. I went 703's plus dual SVS PC12-NSD subs, and it cost me less than either the 705's or 707's on their own would have cost. Plus your SC37 will have an easier time driving the 703's than the 707's.

How about the 705s? I will probably get 703s, if not for fronts, for the surround speakers. I do like the looks of towers for the fronts as opposed to bookshelf on a stand. 707 looks great, I must admit that is an important factor. I see other brands, apparently better speakers than LSIMs, but I cannot warm up to their looks.

F1nut

I own the SC-37 and while it makes for a very good HT AVR, it is not all that when it comes to music. You will absolutely need a good power amp to get the most out of the entire LSiM line.

Originally Posted by NutsAndBolts
Can you point out the deficiencies of the SC-37 vs the $500 amp you talk about?

Easy, it all starts with the power supply. The SC-37, like all AVR's, shares one power supply between all the channels. Stereo power amps share only 2 channels and with dual mono or mono blocks each channel has its on power supply. Forget bi-amping with your AVR. For starters, it's not bi-amping and secondly even with the SC-37 using more than 5 channels drops the actual watts per channel.

I understand breaking in speakers, but what is this about breaking in a power cable? What is there to break in? Square electrons that needs to be rounded off

Power cords don't break-in, they burn-in. You should try a good one for yourself on a quality piece of gear.

Specs and lab tests can tell you some things, but they cannot tell you how a piece of gear sounds.

falconcry72

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

How about the 705s? I will probably get 703s, if not for fronts, for the surround speakers. I do like the looks of towers for the fronts as opposed to bookshelf on a stand. 707 looks great, I must admit that is an important factor. I see other brands, apparently better speakers than LSIMs, but I cannot warm up to their looks.

The 705's are great... as are the 707's and 703's. :cheesygrin:

I agree that towers look better for fronts. Especially the LSiM's. They are damn sexy. The 707's are a very DEEP speaker, so make sure you have room. The 705's are a much more manageable size. Like I said, in terms of pure performance, I like the 707's, followed by 705's, followed by 703's.... but all you're really talking about is differences in bass.

The best setup would be towers PLUS dual subs... but if you don't want to spend the money for towers AND dual subs, then the 703's plus the dual subs will blow the towers on their own away! ESPECIALLY in a home theater setup!

You can get some nice looking stands. They grew on me big time.

Jhayman

Very nice review..
About the quality of finish that is horrible for speakers costing $4k, completely unacceptable I hope they were returned for that reason.?
Are those made in China or the USA?
I know some companies make their cheaper speakers in China and the higher priced models in their home country.

F1nut

^Troll^

Jhayman

Oh Really and your comment about drinking the kool-Aid in the other thread was what??

F1nut wrote: »

^Troll^

ZLTFUL

Jhayman wrote: »

Oh Really and your comment about drinking the kool-Aid in the other thread was what??

Not directed at you but at someone he has a friendly report with...

wallstreet

NutsAndBolts wrote: »

I had not thought of doing this in my own HT room. Good idea. I will look into it. May be I will convince my buddy to part with his amps for a day or so. If not I can buy an amp. But first I need to listen to the 707s and decide what front speakers I want.

A sure way to catch upgraditis. I loved my old Denon until a buddy brought over the latest top of the line yammy. The speakers just opened up in a way I hadn't experienced with my Denon. Two grand later I'm enjoying my speakers all over again with a B&K.

RocketOCannon

First let me say,...great responses and awesome review by Jim.

I am no expert vs all you guys on this thread. You all had some great points in which i have learned a ton. However, I do know what my ears like and appreciate so I just wanted to chirp in with a quick comment or two now that I have had time listening to these great speakers.

My equipment;
NAD M25
Marantz AV7005
Oppo 95
Signal Cable

1. The first thing that hit me front and center with the 707s is the amount of bass they can emit. wow...even on an old Pioneer SX-780 I could hear the bass wanting to bust out. Once I got my basement in order and got the break in time on the NAD M25, i was even further impressed with the bass. it was very balanced and impressive at low volume (Sting, Police, Zep etc) yet when I go to reference levels they want to breathe...like thoroughbreds!. I notice control and brawn...balanced well...just right for my ears. I have seen some people give it a lil knock for to much bass. I don't hear it. I cant say enough positive things about the bass output on these. I use them for my two channel listening and love them.

2. Mids and highs are brilliant...no need to say more.

3. I also got what I wanted...a neutral sounding system with great eye candy for when I show them off. :>)) BOOM!

I listen to music from A-Z...so I have been getting a good curve of different sounds, styles and vol output.

Thanks for all the posts above..one of the better threads i have followed. Learned a lot too.

and..right now I have a perfectly poured Guinness at my bar and cranking Steely Dan Aja - Aja...sounds magnificent!
Have a great Holiday weekend in sonic heaven!

Thanks Jim!!