Dared sl2000a Tube Preamp

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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,249
    edited June 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Sorry for the delay guys,, some clown decided to ignore a stop sign and hit me while I was on the way home.
    I didn't know Ben was back in Atlanta. :biggrin:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    lol,, I forgot that I had your Anthem in the trunk.:redface:

    just kidding-- I did have a tube amp from a console--it's upside down now--anyway back to the Dared output caps-- I think I'm gonna look for a small 1uF 400 volt cap x 4 to pop into it,,if there is such an animal.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,249
    edited June 2011
    Doh!
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    eh,, I'll be replacing them with film caps,,, the oilers would cost anywhere fron 200 dollars and upwards.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited June 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If they are in series couldn't one just double the value of a single cap and jumper the other position, giving a bit more room? My electronics memory is a little foggy on parallel vs series circuits at the moment.

    H9
    The series connection will net .5 uf.And yes it would usually be preferable to use a single cap for cost,size and simpler signal path reason's.However unusually it looks like they have taken feedback for the first tube section at the intersection between the two caps. yet with a load resistor connected after the second cap.Since they used this arrangement for a reason I wouldn't change it without knowing the effects.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    Popped one of these in,,suppose I should turn the amp on eh?:rolleyes::wink:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    Popped one of these in,,suppose I should turn the amp on eh?:rolleyes::wink:

    Yep, slow warm up about 1 minute, so be patient. :biggrin:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Yep, slow warm up about 1 minute, so be patient. :biggrin:

    H9

    Man,, you are not kidding are you--I thought maybe the tube was bad :smile:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2011
    Warming up a pair 1960 Amperex Bugle Boy ECC81's made in France :smile:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    Tell you what,,the Dared is really starting to come in,,maybe it's the caps,,or the signal or rectifier tubes,,but the bass is audibly more present,and pretty tight as opposed to flabby--anyway,something good has occured.:smile:

    Two words,,tone and presence.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2011
    I have noticed the 6106 rectifier is a bit tighter on the bass. Perhaps that's part of it. I'm sure the caps helped as well.

    I hope you documented the cap swap. :tongue:
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I have noticed the 6106 rectifier is a bit tighter on the bass. Perhaps that's part of it. I'm sure the caps helped as well.

    I hope you documented the cap swap. :tongue:

    So far I've only replaced the "input caps",,I used the big a$$ed Russian PIO K-somethings which I secured to the inside chassis and then ran wires to the pcb,,the output caps have not yet arrived(Obligatto's),rest assured when they do,I'll post my usual somewhat blurry pic's.:tongue:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited June 2011
    Keiko wrote: »
    Reckon I have to track down a 6106 now and give it a try in mine.

    Current tube compliment, Mullard GZ30 and Sylvania Gold Brand 6201. Mmmm, tasty! :wink:

    This is honestly the First time I've ever heard an audible difference changing rectifier tubes.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2011
    New house, new listening room which is just a tad too lively until I start my room treatments. I listened to the Amprex BB's (made in France) last night for about 3 hours and they are a bit more forward and lively than the current Sylvania 5965 and on acoustic and vocal music they really shine, they are leaner in bass than the Sylvania's but not in a bad way, just not quite as full. The soundstage was frickin' HUGE, it gained a bit in height (not much) and again things are a little bit out in front, good depth. The side to side was almost too much on certain songs. Amazing, but at the same time on certain songs just a smidge artificial.

    Obviously more listening is in order. Probably not entirely fair that I listened to some different songs last night that I haven;t listened to on the Sylvania's, mainly Patty Larkin - ReGrooving the Dream The song Mink Coats was simply stunning, except for some of the instruments in the song (mainly the huge bass drums) sounded like they were being playing in my dining room :biggrin:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited June 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    This is honestly the First time I've ever heard an audible difference changing rectifier tubes.

    I've heard the differences going from a Sovtek to Mullard 5AR4 in my other integrated tube amp as well as the Dared. I do know that the 5Z4 and 5Y3, which is essentially what the Bendix 6106 is have different electrical characteristics so that could be part of it.

    In the beginning I was also using a 5V4G and I had several flavors and I could even hear some slight differences between those too. I kept the one I liked best which is a 1954 Sylvania 5V4G w/in-line black plates, not the parallel plates. I have one of those too :tongue:

    One of the things I love about the Dared is its responsiveness to tube rolling; in all positions.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    If I change the caps to .22uf Mundorf Supremes (I think they might fit), would the sonics improved further? How would the Mundorf Supremes compare to the Auricaps?
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    As promised, some pics.

    Dared001.jpg
    Dared002.jpg
    Dared003.jpg
    Dared004.jpg
    Dared005.jpg

    You can see the Auricaps, but I don't have the gold plated boards either. I remember asking the seller about that.

    H9

    Are these Auricaps .22uf?
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    I hear a hiss in the speakers (Harbeth C7 and VA Mozart) with the Dared SL-2000A. Would changing the tubes eliminate or lessen the hiss?
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited September 2011
    The input caps(Auricap) should be .22,,,hiss,, at what volume? Tube rush maybe,,swap em' out and see.I'd leave the auricaps alone and concentrate on the 1Uf jobbies if you are determined to change them,,otherwise,try some rectifiers and/or small signal tubes and see how you like it.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    There is some hiss although very slight with the Dared preamp on (no hiss without the preamp). There is a tube rush initially then after a few seconds a constant hiss. I have changed the rectifier to a Mullard but will see how it goes if I change the 12AT7 tubes.
    Dared informed me that this new model does not have the Auricaps installed so I was thinking of having Mundorfs (due to its availability here) installed to replace the existing caps.
    Thanks, George.
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    George, so if I decide to change the caps, I can use a 1uf over the .22uf?
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    George, so if I decide to change the caps, I can use a 1uf over the .22uf?

    The 1Uf caps replace the yellow square ones IIRC,, I replaced a total of 6 caps with the same uF,,but equal or higher voltage rating.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    George, so if I decide to change the caps, I can use a 1uf over the .22uf?

    That should be fine.I no longer have the schematic but IIRC .22uf's are used for interstage coupling(AC coupling) between the two gain sections,not directly at the input.(Their purpose is to block any DC from the ouput of the first section of the tube from reaching the second section).Using a higher value capacitor will shift the bass roll off to a lower frequency which should be non problematic.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited September 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    , I replaced a total of 6 caps with the same uF,,but equal or higher voltage rating.

    Huh?

    Should be (and correct me if I'm wrong)

    (2) Input coupling caps that go across the tubes those .22uF 400v

    (4) Output coupling caps (4 yellow square Carli caps) 1uF 400v

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited September 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Huh?

    Should be (and correct me if I'm wrong)

    (2) Input coupling caps that go across the tubes those .22uF 400v

    (4) Output coupling caps (4 yellow square Carli caps) 1uF 400v

    H9

    was kinda misleading-- 2 each .22uf,,,,,4 each--1,uf,,,or were you struggling with the math:tongue:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,349
    edited September 2011
    Now you guys have me wanting one of these.. I guess I could sell my DODD?? I have been putting money away for the W4S preamp and don't want to dip into that at the moment..
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited September 2011
    george daniel wrote: »
    The 1Uf caps replace the yellow square ones IIRC,, I replaced a total of 6 caps with the same uF,,but equal or higher voltage rating.
    george daniel wrote: »
    was kinda misleading-- 2 each .22uf,,,,,4 each--1,uf,,,or were you struggling with the math:tongue:

    George I was just confused by the bolded part, so I was just clarifying :biggrin:. There are two different values amongst the 6 caps.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited September 2011
    yes sir,,you are correct,and I've got that big A$$ Brimar that you sent me in it right now.Thank you.:smile:
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • jessie52
    jessie52 Posts: 34
    edited September 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    As promised, some pics.

    Dared001.jpg
    Dared002.jpg
    Dared003.jpg
    Dared004.jpg
    Dared005.jpg

    You can see the Auricaps, but I don't have the gold plated boards either. I remember asking the seller about that.

    H9

    To where the Auricaps are mounted, it indicates 12AX7. Can we use 12AX7 tubes then? Are these Auricaps intended to drive these tubes?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,217
    edited September 2011
    jessie52 wrote: »
    To where the Auricaps are mounted, it indicates 12AX7. Can we use 12AX7 tubes then? Are these Auricaps intended to drive these tubes?

    Not that I'm aware of, but I did have an email exchange with a Dared authorized dealer/repair center owner who had some NOS replacement boards on EBAY. He stated the Dared SL2000A's he sold and repaired all used 12AX7's. I never did get a clear answer on why. I'm sure by changing some resistor values you could probably use 12AX7's. To be honest, 12AT7's are 20-40% less than most equivalent 12AX7's and I think 12AT7's (certain brands) sound as good or better than the equivalent 12AX7, so I don't see a reason to mess with it.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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