I have a friend who is looking into getting into home theater stuff

Jstas

He gave me a budget of 2500-3000 bucks. I spent like 2330 already and that includes a pair of LSi 15's and I'm hoping I sold him on them! He'll have about 2K worth of Polk Audio speakers!

Anyway, he was asking about wiring. Given his limited budget, I wanted to get recommendations on wiring that won't break his budget if I can help it.

So what kind of speaker wire should he use? I'd prefer to keep him away from Monster cable if I can. I have had bad experience with home application Monstaer Cable. Hell, I have bad experiences with car stuff too! I'd rather stick with StreetWires by Scosche but thats really not for home use.

Also, what kind of patch cables? Well, RCA cables, just my car audio lingo slipping in there. Again, I'd want to go with StreetWires Zero Noise 6.0's. That is what is patching my 2 channel stereo together right now and they work great. But, not meant for home use.

So any recommendations?

VR3

IXOS.....I say....

faster100

So i take it he has a receiver of some sort already? If he is new to HT and very limited on funds, I may have suggested the Rti line of speakers, unless you purchased a whole Lsi outfit for the $2330
which includes the mains, center and rears? so is this budget just for speakers and wire? or for a whole HT setup? Ie: speakers, receiver, wires, interconeects??

Ixos, Monster works well for alot of us, signal cable for interconnects, AR,

Jstas

The speakers are coming in under typical retail because of sale prices and discounts that I have found locally. However, I recommended the LSi15's because number one he likes them and number two, he does alot of entertaining at his house for business and pleasure and wants a really kick **** set of stereo speakers. For the price, I have yet to see anything better. The LSi speakers are nicer musically and he wanted a good set of stereo speakers. Right now, the planned setup uses the LSi 15's because of his musical requirement and a CSi30 center channel and FXi Bipole/Dipole surrounds. Granted, they are not the best options to match the LSi15's but they will work well enough for HT duty until he is ready to upgrade. His budget doesn't fit the LSi surrounds right now so this is the best compromise to do double duty and do it well, IMO.

We have not yet decided on a subwoofer though. He isn't sure about which room he wants to put the system in.

When he gets his yearly bonus, he said he will have more money to upgrade the surrounds and possibly go from a single reciever to a pre-amp and component amplifiers. He currently has an Onkyo reciever/tuner which should be adequate for him. He isn't hardcore and I don't want to to upgrade the reciever and kill the LSi15's for him. It really is the best compromise to get him what he wants now.

Really though, home theater is a goal but not as important to him as musical capability because of the entertaining that he does. I'd rather focus him on that aspect and get him sold on the LSi15's and ween him into HT slowly. HT can be daunting and I'd rather not see him get soured by a bad experience. He doesn't have very many "manly" things to occupy him. He is in real estate for commercial properties, large commercial properties. We are talking skyscrapers and malls and industrial complexes here. His job takes up alot of time and whatever other time he has, he devotes to his family. This is the first real hobby-like thing he can have and can get into and share with his family. I'd like to see him keep at it and get into it. He is interested and wants to learn and I want to help him with it so he understands it. He could really use something other than real estate in his life and he loves his kids and they all like to watch movies. So right now, its a good compromise. I'm sure it will grow in the future.


Just be glad that he didn't get the Bose Lifestyle system that his brother told him about. Slowly but surely I am steering more and more sheep away from the darkside!

faster100

I believe all the Onkyo's/Integra's are only 6 ohm stable.. The lsi's are 4 ohm and can dip to 2-3 easily.. I would say the receiver will be running hot and possibly not run at all.. i have heard people say the Onkyo's don't work well with low ohm loads.. or at higher volumes shutting down, That is a reason to start with a 8 ohm speaker regardless if its Polk or similiar.

VR3

Adcom

Jstas

Background music. That's it. On a volume scale of 1-10, 10 being highest, he hits maybe a 5 tops. It wouldn't see extreme duty in the HT realm either. He doesn't listen to movies loud. again, he hits maybe a 5 or 6 tops. He just wants something clean and clear. Hell, he may even want to upgrade his receiver. It's up to him really. I will keep it in mind and suggest it to him. but then again, I haven't heard back from him about it yet so I can't be sure exactly what he wants.

Then again, all I did ask for was recommendations on wire to fit in a budget where 2330 or 3000 was allocated. Thank you for the advice though.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by Jstas
Then again, all I did ask for was recommendations on wire to fit in a budget where 2330 or 3000 was allocated. Thank you for the advice though.

You know we go the extra mile here...

At moderate volumes I doubt the Onk will have issues.

Seriously, if he's only into background music, I'd have trouble counseling him towards expensive wire and IC's. Especially in a rig that is not set as yet. The RS fusions and some 14 ga RS, HD, etc. wire would be a nice start and leave your bud with relatively cheap tweaks, if he feels something is lacking, after he upgrades in 2004.

I find your use of "auto" IC's and wire interesting and not at all improper. What kind of price for a 1m IC? per foot of speaker lead?

Jstas

Automotive wire is quite different from home wire. Automotive wire is subjected to a much more electronically hostile environment. Consequently, interconnect leads are sheilded excessivly. They are designed to keep out very much if not all of the RF and EM emissions that are created by cars from both the twitchy (for lack of a better word) DC electrical systems and the EM fields created by static charges induced by the movement of various parts on the vehicle.

Houses don't have those kinds of problems. But where the home audio world debates the cost of interconnects until they are blue in the face, in automotive, the better the interconnects the better the sound, hands down, case closed. If you have junk wire you get junk sound in car. Cost can be high though. My 12 foot Streetwires Zero Noise 6.0's cost me 78 dollars a pair. The 16 footers that I wanted but couldn't afford cost 119 dollars a pair. Are they over priced? IMO, yes they are. Are they worth paying too much? IMO, yes they are. Are they overkill for a house? IMO, yes they are. The only reason I am using them for home is because I had them left over from when I pulled the stereo out of my Ranger. It was a smaller truck and only needed 10 ft wires to reach the amp behind the seat.

As for speaker wires, it can get extremely expensive there too. But not because of quality of wire. Copper wire is copper wire. The major factor there is purity of the copper. All the major brands use wire that is at least 99% oxygen free and void of impurities. That is not the real issue. The real issue deals with insulation. Cars are subjected to not only weather but harsh chemicals. The insulation on automotive wires is designed to resist stuff like gasoline, alcohol, brake fluid, motor oil and even battery acid to an extent. Home wire will resist that too but insulation is usually only a fraction of that on car wire. Also, home wire does not meet SAE standards and using it can actually end up causing a short that could set fire to your car.

Also, some speaker wires are sheilded. they cost considerably more than non-sheilded wires though. However, Monster Cable and Scosche have a rather ingenious idea for speaker wires. They have braided wire. It comes out to like .70-1.50 a foot but it works better than sheilding. I cannot remember the name of the effect that causes this to work but what it basically does is creates two EM feilds that cancel each other out. The positive and negative lead are either wrapped around each other or a 3 "core" wire that just hanges there, unattached. Because thier fields cancel each other out, it makes for a very clean signal to the speaker and prevents outside radiation of any kind from interfering. Of course it can be over-powered but that takes alot of juice to create a field that strong.

So I didn't use it by choice, just by chance. The technology works well but I think it is overkill for a house. You probably wouldn't notice a difference at all.

F1nut

Back in the day of 8 tracks and the early years of cassette's we ran regular old copper speaker wire, that one would also use in a home system, to the Jensen three ways mounted in the rear deck. There wasn't anything else to use and no one I knew ever had a problem. That said, I know car wire and gear has come a long way, but I have to disagree that today's car wire is overkill for a home system. There are the same RF and EM problems in a house, hence the need for excellent shielded wires too.

In comparing the car speaker wire mentioned at $1.50 a foot, the speaker wire running in this house costs $150.00 a foot and the IC's are $235.00 a foot. I consider this to be damn good wire, but by no means the best or the most expensive, sick isn't it?!? Did I notice a difference between the old $x.xx Monster cable I use to run, Hell Yes!!! Will good car wire out perform good home wire, in the home....no way.

Back to the topic at hand, I agree that for background music the Onkyo should be fine and there is no need for high-end wires at this time. I'm sure any of the suggested wires will work perfectly for him. Maybe in time and with your help, he will develop the disease of audio nirvana.

faster100

Well if its only for background music, and basic wire is fine for now, why spend the money on lsi15's? isn't that wasted money for background music, a set of Rti70's would work on all volumes on the Onkyo.. why if the family also plans to watch movies and he wants a funtional system would he want to be limited to volume while useing the Lsi's?? doesnt seem like the optimal setup IMHO, But maybe that's just me,

Tour2ma

faster,
Given that the electronics are slated for upgrade first of the year, it's not all that long to wait. To my mind his plan is solid.

F1,
Obviously car wire is "underkill"... At least from a cost standpoint.

Would be interesting to include some in a shoot-out.

faster100

well what i am saying is, "he only uses it for background music" is kinda a waste for lsi15's No?

it's his money after all.. just suggesting

Jstas

I never said car wire would outperform home wire. I said it was overkill. A home is no where near as hostile.

An example, all you have to worry about in a house is a 60 Hz cycle from the AC outlet and any feedback produced when a high current draw appliance is turned on. For the most part, home stereo enjoys a relativly unmolested existence.

In a car however, DC current has a fluctuating cycle resonance. Add to that the fact that your ignition system is cramming several thousand volts down itty bitty wires to fire you engine and that engine is pumping out its own cycle resonaces on several frequencies at once. Your charging system is tied into your starting system and your ECM computer and while they may not share common grounds, they share the same near-earth ground of the car's frame. Add to that the static charged built up through friction of the car rolling down the road. It makes a pretty powerful EM field that doesn't really have any place to discharge except the near-earth grounding of the frame of the car. That is just HALF of what goes on! Most modern cars are fuel injected so wonderful things like throttle control motors, ABS, fuel pumps and HID headlights with 1500 watt ballast resistors add to the fray. There is also the rotating mass of teh drivetrain and all its associated computers that add a whole other set of interferences along the same lines a the engine and engine management systems. Please, tell me where you get that kind of intereference in a home? Keep in mind that any transient radiation and ambient EM fields that a home is subjected to, a car is also subject to. Everything I listed is in addition to that.

Wire can make a difference. I'm sure I can find home wire that is better than car wire. I'm sure I can find car wire that is better than alot of home wire. Will I find car wire that is 200+ dollars a foot? Most likely not. Is wire like that needed? IMO, no. But that is a different subject altogether.



As far as the LSi's go, it's his money, he can do what he wants. If someone else doesn't like it, well, that's a shame. All I or anyone else can do is guide him and maybe influence his decision. No use arguing about because I just don't care. He is the customer, he can tell me what he wants and what he is looking for and it is my responsibility as his consultant to give him the best solution possible within the constraints of his given requirements.

faster100

well lets just leave it at that.. enjoy

Tour2ma

.... and the roller coaster reaches the top of the hill and ....

WHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

faster100

HUH??

I'm climbing back in my hole ive been staying in, stay outta trouble that way, LOL

F1nut

.......I love coaster rides, talk about a static charge!

Jstas

I'm sorry but I have to ask, what the hell is the problem here? I'm asking questions to gain information to help a guy out the best I can. I came here because I knew that I could get good help.

All I did was correct statements that were made in error about my statements and explained things that may not have been clear to the other participants of this discussion.

The only friction from anyone is being caused by those who feel the necessity to point out what they percieve as friction.

Get off my case already. If you can't be civil or mature about this then just leave it alone.

VR3

IXOS Speaker Wire

Radioshack Gold Cables or Fusion

If amps

NAD, Adcom, AMC

Frank Z

Gentlemen,
Lets all take a deep breath and try to remember the origal question here shall we. Pretty straight forward really, suggest a wire/interconnect and maybe explain your recommendation. No need to butt heads over this one guy's, I'm sure something else will come along that really deserves a good "Texas Cage Match"!!

F1nut

Jstas,

You're right, you didn't say car wire would outperform home wire. My mistake, I thought that's what you meant by overkill.

Friction? Where? On this forum...lol

I've found it helps to have a sense of humor around here.

goingganzo

9 times out of 10 if a recever is not rated at 4 ohms it will die. i have experance at this. my last ht recever with was a sony but alot older when they still made good stuff. is dead beacues of abuse wireing up loads that were out of the 6-16 ohm range. i would say get a cheap set of speakers like the rm series and a good pre pro. then he can add any speaker to that .

burdette

I was also wondering why in the world he'd go with LSi's given his listening habits.

Also have to agree with gonzo... heat will kill electronics quicker than just about anything, and running a too-low impedance is going to generate heat.

faster100

Huh, thats what i suggested and it seemed out of line,
for casual back ground music, get a sat/sub combo or some small rt/rti's to go with that onkyo... But i guess jstas already picked him out Lsi's...

Jstas

OK, before I get ganged up on again, lets get something straight.

I DID NOT PICK OUT ANYTHING FOR HIM.

He said he liked them and wanted them. I said, ok, lets see what we can do.

Secondly, I did not ask for recommendations on the speakers themselves. I asked for recommendations on wires. That would be why I posted it in the Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions forum.

I don't care if you don't agree. The best answer I can give you is that I will pass on the information. It's too bad if that is not good enough for you.

Lastly, I will not tolerate the insinuations being made about me. I don't care if you don't like me. I don't care if you cannot allow yourself to be mature and answer the question I asked. That is not my issue. I did not say that anyone was out of line for making a suggestion, even if it was unsolicited. I'm not going to question the listening habits of the person I am helping either. All I need to know is what he expects and wants. I will make recommendations on that information. I will not try to make him feel dumb for maybe buying something that is more than he needs. I will not force him to get something that is no where close to what he wants. I will assist him in finding a happy medium. If that means he will under use or "waste his time" with LSi's then that is what that means. If that means that I may have to persuade him to select different equipment due to physical limitations and incompatibilities then that is what that means. I will not tell him he is wasting his money and time purchasing something that his heart desires. If you can't deal with that then just take solace in the fact that it isn't your money he is spending.

I'm done with this thread. More level headed people who actually read the question and gave me honest answers to that question have already responded to me through different means in order to avoid a thread like this.

burdette

Wow.. what a strong reaction. I genuinely am sorry if I contributed to your attitude. I responded because, frankly, I don't think the situation calls for 'expensive' wire and interconnects, and other people responded, in my opinion, in similar money-saving ways. If your friend is interested in parting with his money, and having some 'showcase' system to impress people, by all means he should do that.

You do, by the way, specifically say YOU sold him on the LSi15s.. which to me implies you could suggest less money for speakers. I don't see this thread as anything but guys trying to help you help your friend get the best system he can that will do the job he wants done, without blowing extra cash.

F1nut

Ed Zachary

faster100

Originally posted by Jstas

I DID NOT PICK OUT ANYTHING FOR HIM.

Originally posted by Jstas
"I spent like 2330 already and that includes a pair of LSi 15's" and I'm hoping "I sold him" on them! He'll have about 2K worth of Polk Audio speakers!


"So any recommendations?"

That's what i thought also, he gets alittle uptight for unjust reasons :rolleyes:


I refuse to fight on this board anymore.. and this is no exception..

Jstas

The problem is that none of you know anything about the situation aside from what I wrote. You have no idea what he was considering before the LSi15's, do you? I didn't ask for advice on the speakers or components. I wanted to get advice on wires, that's it. I passed on all of your information and it is for him to mull over and decide on for himself. The only things I chose for him was the options that would work best with his planned LSi purchase.

If you want to know what he was considering before hand, he was looking at the LSi25's. I talked him out of it eventhough he found them for $1750.

The real problem is that you are volunteering information that was not solicited and I am not at liberty to divulge the entire nitty, gritty details of the person whom I am trying to help out.

So instead of bagging on me, why not realize that you do not know the whole story and you will not know the whole story? Why not realize that I know more about it than most of you think I do and that there is other stuff at work here and much more information that you are not privvy to?

Tour2ma

You could tell us, but then I guess you'd have to kill us. Our Mothers thank you for your discretion...

I'm sure your friend will enjoy his system regardless of the wire that finally stitches it together.

Sorry for any instigating for which I may have been responsible. Train is back in the station... No Rerides...