How important is wattage...

ranger

in my system? I have a Denon 1911 (90 watts per channel). It is driving TSi 400 fronts, a CS20 center and a pair of OWM3 satellites. I also have a PSW111 sub. It sounds pretty good but I'm not blown away. Yesterday I watched Saving Private Ryan and had the volume level at 70 to get a good theater experience.

Would a receiver with 125 watts produce better sound? Should I get a receiver with pre outs and an amp?

I can still return my 1911. I see Denon has a 3312CI coming out soon with 125w and pre outs. What do you audiophiles think?

EndersShadow

ranger wrote: »

in my system? I have a Denon 1911 (90 watts per channel). It is driving TSi 400 fronts, a CS20 center and a pair of OWM3 satellites. I also have a PSW111 sub. It sounds pretty good but I'm not blown away. Yesterday I watched Saving Private Ryan and had the volume level at 70 to get a good theater experience.

Would a receiver with 125 watts produce better sound? Should I get a receiver with pre outs and an amp?

I can still return my 1911. I see Denon has a 3312CI coming out soon with 125w and pre outs. What do you audiophiles think?

What your running into is that your 1911's wattage rating is with 2 channels driven. So the more speakers you add the lower that number goes. Thats why both a speakers efficiency and ohm load matter a great deal in picking up a receiver. Even the 3312CI's power rating is with 2 channels driven. However the 3312CI has pre-outs as you mention.

Honestly that makes up the difference since you can add your own external amp to the setup. Now the differences in an external amp v. reciever is that the amp does one thing. POWA! And the power ratings for them tend to be with all channels driven. So with a dedicated amp, even one rated less than your receiver, you are getting a true wattage rating.

So honestly any receiver with pre-outs would be your best bet. I know lots of fella's here like the Pioneer receivers with ICE amps as they tend to be closer to the rated spec's than other brands. But any receiver w/ pre-outs would work. Then get yourself a pretty decent USED dedicated amp to save yourself some coin.

treitz3

High current is important. Watts are overrated.

I have had 8 watts in my rig and up to 3400 watts. It seems in my audio journey, less is more, given that you have chosen properly. Thing is, never rely on spec's for great sound. A starting point, yes. Sound? No.

cheddar

ranger wrote: »

in my system? I have a Denon 1911 (90 watts per channel). It is driving TSi 400 fronts, a CS20 center and a pair of OWM3 satellites. I also have a PSW111 sub. It sounds pretty good but I'm not blown away. Yesterday I watched Saving Private Ryan and had the volume level at 70 to get a good theater experience.

Would a receiver with 125 watts produce better sound? Should I get a receiver with pre outs and an amp?

I can still return my 1911. I see Denon has a 3312CI coming out soon with 125w and pre outs. What do you audiophiles think?

"Better Sound" is not something that is so easy to identify and fix since it depends heavily on your own personal preferences. A powerful amp added to the mix will change the sound, but IMO, you need to think through what you think you're missing before you just start spending money you may not have to get results that may not solve your problem.

What kind of sound are you looking for in your HT? What would blow you away? Is it hearing more small details in the sound track? Tighter less muddy bass? Something missing in the high frequencies? Or do you think you're missing a slamming low end that makes your teeth rattle?

If it's the slamming low end, your sub and mains just may not be able to deliver the deep rumble you're looking for. Throwing money at an amp may help in other areas, but it won't add frequencies that your mains aren't capable of delivering. And it won't add any power to your sub which is too small and underpowered to provide a really deep low end with authority. If you do a search on this forum, you can find plenty of threads which will help you out with choosing either better amplification or a sub. But spend some time thinking about what you really want in an upgrade first.

ranger

EndersShadow, Denon boasts of 90w equal across 7 channels. I understand you believe this is not true? Just from listening to my system it seem you are right, I really have to crank the volume up for it to rock. My room is 17' by 17' however, with a large and small entrance to the room.

I believe I will return the 1911 while I still can. I want great sound and am willing to put a few coins toward that end.

The sub is another subject, need to upgrade there also. These HT systems are harder to assemble than I thought!

Neskahi

treitz3 wrote: »

High current is important. Watts are overrated.

I have had 8 watts in my rig and up to 3400 watts. It seems in my audio journey, less is more, given that you have chosen properly. Thing is, never rely on spec's for great sound. A starting point, yes. Sound? No.

How can we identify a High Current Amp? It's often referred to on the forum
but I have not a clue as what specs would indicate such. Hope this is still on
topic. Thanks.

treitz3

Hmmm, good question. Tubes by nature are high current amps but when talking about sand amps? Man, you got me there. Maybe someone who could provide a solid answer could answer that better than I could hope too. I don't recall a manufacturer ever stating amps within the spec's. I think they only advertise it as a high current amplifier. Like I said, I'd wait for a more solid answer.

Current refers to the amount of amperes used. A high current amplifier uses more amps.

Neskahi

I too have seen a few manufacturers claim high current. But typically that's all they say
in their advertisement about the subject.

ranger

Cheddar, You are so dead on with your post. I had a Samsung HTIB previously. The first movie I watched I heard that tinny, cheap, tiny center channel and immediately replaced it with a Polk CS1 (my first Polk ever). What a difference! The $400 or so system actually sounded decent then. Until the Samsung receiver died anyway. Which led me into the world of building my own sound system...

I want a system that produces detail, has volume to spare, and a powerful sub. Something that sounds much better than my Samsung HTIB. So far I don't have that. This system is better, of course, but like I stated previously, I'm not blown away. That is why I started this thread, I am wondering if more wattage and a powerful sub would really give my system a boost. I swear, my old cheap sub put out as much bass as the PSW111.

I dunno, I am even thinking about putting my 400's, sub and CS1 (which is sitting in a closet right now) into another room for a music system and upgrading my fronts, subs and receiver/amp for my living room HT.

ranger

Btw, I couldn't find a 505 when I bought my system, my loss apparently.

JuanR

Make sure you have calibrated your system. You should be able to manually adjust your speakers power settings, maybe that will help and your receiver will prove to be adequate? But in the long run a receiver with pre outs will give you the flexibility to add an amp for better sustained power.

cheddar

Most on here would recommend you put the best mains in a music system as with music, more subtle details become more important than with a bombastic theater track. I think it depends again, on your own personal tastes and listening habits.

If you have the money to spare, you can upgrade all the components after careful research and end up with a better system. But be warned that many on this forum have already done that and are still burning holes in their wallet trying to improve things.

You really need to get your ears on different components, speakers, and subs to figure out what will meet your needs. Showroom systems often sound different when you get them home. Start asking friends, family, and coworkers if you can demo their systems. And start swapping out gear in your own system if you can find good return policies.

cheddar

ranger wrote: »

Btw, I couldn't find a 505 when I bought my system, my loss apparently.

You might want to try subwoofers outside the polk line. Plenty of threads in the subwoofer section of the forum to point you to good companies to look in to.

krauley

JuanR wrote: »

Make sure you have calibrated your system. You should be able to manually adjust your speakers power settings, maybe that will help and your receiver will prove to be adequate? But in the long run a receiver with pre outs will give you the flexibility to add an amp for better sustained power.

I would also invest in a radio shack sound level meter. I ran audussey many times on my system but could never get the sound I craved. My system sounded good but seemed as though something was missing. Then after reading so many threads on using spl meters for calibrating systems I decided to give it a try. Only $30 bucks and I was so pleased with the results. My sound went from ok to a cohesive wall of sound. This is in my opinion but I stand by using a spl for manual calibrating to get that full sound.

TouchOfEvil

treitz3 wrote: »

High current is important. Watts are overrated.

I have had 8 watts in my rig and up to 3400 watts. It seems in my audio journey, less is more, given that you have chosen properly. Thing is, never rely on spec's for great sound. A starting point, yes. Sound? No.

Why do you feel the need to butt in on threads that have nothing to do with tubes all the damn time? Guy is asking about a receiver and you think tube talk is the answer? :eek:

B Run

TouchOfEvil wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to butt in on threads that have nothing to do with tubes all the damn time? Guy is asking about a receiver and you think tube talk is the answer? :eek:

Um the thread is about how important stated wattage is, and he was directly commenting on that. Even though most of us know he was referring to tubes he never told the OP to go buy tubes or anything of the sort. I think he gave good advice, high current does matter more than wattage, quality over quantity when it comes to watts, and never just go off specs?

To the OP, return the 1911 and get something with pre outs and you'll be glad you did, i started on the 1909 and it did a decent job, but quickly wanted to upgrade.

inspiredsports

If you want your answer in its simplest form, For SS, weigh it if you can't get inside to see how big the torroidal transformer is. Big (transformer) and heavy = high current.

High wattage claims not backed up by a big, weighty power supply mean very little.

This is why low measured wattage tube gear can drive huge complex loads, the transformers on even an 8 WRMS tube rig are large and heavy.

dorokusai

I believe Tom was just stating an opinion, not a requirement TOE and the later comment was just a general observation. Relax as he's recently heard new things when it comes to his rig and his excitment is boiling over into other aspects and conversations....we should all be so lucky as to get re-invigorated about our collective hobby don't you think?

dorokusai

inspiredsports wrote: »

If you want your answer in its simplest form, For SS, weigh it if you can get inside to see how big the torroidal transformer is. Big (transformer) and heavy = high current.

Hmmm, not really and a bit misleading if that's what you use as a guideline. No offense.

treitz3

TouchOfEvil wrote:

Why do you feel the need to butt in on threads that have nothing to do with tubes all the damn time? Guy is asking about a receiver and you think tube talk is the answer? :eek:

Daggum. I was answering a question. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Do you mind letting offer my observations?

If not, PLEASE put me on your ignore list. Seriously.

Not only I, but many others have answered this very question hundreds...if not thousands of times on this forum. Simply put, leave me alone. I'm trying to help, not push what I think on others.

Thank you in advance and have a good day.

inspiredsports

dorokusai wrote: »

Hmmm, not really and a bit misleading if that's what you use as a guideline. No offense.

No offense taken, because in the context of this simplistic thread, I'm right :biggrin:

Marty913

treitz3 wrote: »

Hmmm, good question. Tubes by nature are high current amps but when talking about sand amps? Man, you got me there. Maybe someone who could provide a solid answer could answer that better than I could hope too. I don't recall a manufacturer ever stating amps within the spec's. I think they only advertise it as a high current amplifier. Like I said, I'd wait for a more solid answer.

Current refers to the amount of amperes used. A high current amplifier uses more amps.

The only one I'm aware of that specifically mentions a current number is HK. They routinely mention 35+ amps in their specs. Although not specifically stated, the NAD receivers using the Holmgren toroidal power supply generate in excess of 35 amps. I'm sure there are others but you do have to look a little deeper than the manufacturer's spec.

treitz3

dorokusai wrote: »

Relax as he's recently heard new things when it comes to his rig and his excitement is boiling over into other aspects and conversations....we should all be so lucky as to get re-invigorated about our collective hobby don't you think?

Isn't it funny how my new found excitement is coming from a sand amp....and not tubes. :eek:

Yet I still get dogged. :rolleyes:

dorokusai

Welcome to my world Tom :biggrin:

treitz3

Eh, it happens. Life is still good.

ranger

I manualy set my speakers to small, sub yes, 80hz for fronts and centers, 110hz for satellites. Bass setting LFE and 120hz.

I ran Audessey and it set speakers to large, everything I heard indicated my manual setup was better. I'll run it again and try it out.

I'll return or move the 1911 and get a receiver with pre outs. And an amp.

EndersShadow

ranger wrote: »

EndersShadow, Denon boasts of 90w equal across 7 channels. I understand you believe this is not true? Just from listening to my system it seem you are right, I really have to crank the volume up for it to rock. My room is 17' by 17' however, with a large and small entrance to the room.

I believe I will return the 1911 while I still can. I want great sound and am willing to put a few coins toward that end.

The sub is another subject, need to upgrade there also. These HT systems are harder to assemble than I thought!

The Denon manual states per 2 sets of channels:

90 w + 90w @ 8ohm
125w + 125w @ 6ohm

So thats 90 watts x 2 without any of the other channels connected.

No company is going to come out with their actual WPC as the numbers are waaaayyyy lower than advertised.

I think your on the right track w/ the new receiver w/ pre-outs...

gdb

Never put in a higher wattage bulb than what the fixture is rated for.

marvda1

most times when i think of high current it is the amps that double down as impedance is halved. for example, 100 watts 8ohm, 200 watts 4ohm, 400 watts 2ohm impedance and some of the truly high current amps will specify into 1ohm loads. and yes they most go below 4ohm loads which rules out a lot of av receivers.

soundfreak1

Don't confuse wattage with currant. Wattage is much less important. Its high-currant that will give you more accurate and detailed sound. No avr receiver ( under 5k ) will give you "great" currant. But they will shout about wattage to confuse the buyer! I've been thru the avr stages with denon (1083's 987's and the like) all lacking in depth, detail and accuracy. Went to ss high-currant 80w but with about 45/50 ampere and its an incredible improvement!!! Also consider the efficiency of your speakers,the sensitivity is imp.if your speakers are 4olm most avr receivers aren't stable at less than 8olm ( due to low currant. If you have a sensitivity of say mid 90's. Wattage is less imp. As far as volume is concerned! Once u exp. High-currant, wattage is (not quite but virtually) irrelevant. Subject to your speaker sensitivity! If u have pre outs (and u should) u can bypass the amps and put some nice amps (high-currant) in the sys. However u will be setting yourself up for the next upgrade---the processor also compromised in avr's. So don't expect any one piece of equip. To solve all your needs, it a synergy between all equip. You can build a great "vintage ht with high quality amps and great processors for less than 1k + speakers but you will need to spent over 4k for a new avr that won't be as good or detailed. You can buy and experiment and sell what you don't care for ( and learn what u like) for a lot less loss of money than new avr's.

soundfreak1

Don't confuse wattage with currant. Wattage is much less important. Its high-currant that will give you more accurate and detailed sound. No avr receiver ( under 5k ) will give you "great" currant. But they will shout about wattage to confuse the buyer! I've been thru the avr stages with denon (1083's 987's and the like) all lacking in depth, detail and accuracy. Went to ss high-currant 80w but with about 45/50 ampere and its an incredible improvement!!! Also consider the efficiency of your speakers,the sensitivity is imp.if your speakers are 4olm most avr receivers aren't stable at less than 8olm ( due to low currant. If you have a sensitivity of say mid 90's. Wattage is less imp. As far as volume is concerned! Once u exp. High-currant, wattage is (not quite but virtually) irrelevant. Subject to your speaker sensitivity! If u have pre outs (and u should) u can bypass the amps and put some nice amps (high-currant) in the sys. However u will be setting yourself up for the next upgrade---the processor also compromised in avr's. So don't expect any one piece of equip. To solve all your needs, it a synergy between all equip. You can build a great "vintage ht with high quality amps and great processors for less than 1k + speakers but you will need to spent over 4k for a new avr that won't be as good or detailed. You can buy and experiment and sell what you don't care for ( and learn what u like) for a lot less loss of money than new avr's.