Is the audiophile history ?

organ

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I've been called worse, that's for sure.

The problem with the designation itself, is that there are no qualifications. Sure, you can say that about most hobbies, hot rods, model railroading, sailing, etc. The one difference I find is that most other hobbies or interests or even lifestyles if you choose to view them as such, require some sort of basic (or even advanced knowledge), or perhaps even actual certifications.

You can buy a hotrod, but to build one, it takes a lot of time and know how. You can buy a kit for an HO railroad and a sheet of ply from Home Depot and be done - but to make it cool, to make it really neat - you need to be able to craft, and paint, and design, and be familar with transformers and eletrical circuits. Sailing, you need to learn how to sail, you can't just buy a skiff and set out and hope for success.

None of that holds true with audio. All you need to be an audiophile is a credit card and self declaration of the fact. I think that 'mystique' is appealing to a lot of men. Men who may or may not be 'someone' in the eyes of their family, or in their career can suddenly take on a renaissance vibe, a kind of James Bond air by 'buying' into the hobby. And a lot of men do JUST that.

I'm not discounting those of us (most of us here), that take listening serious, or perhaps just find geniune enjoyment in it. Sure there are varying degrees of how far we go, but that doesn't change the fact for the real audiophiles, audio enthusiasts, music and gear lovers, whatever you choose to call them. I just think the group mentioned above is rampant, and there are some on this board. They have opened their wallets to fill a void. It's made them interesting, to themselves, and somewhat exotic to the ones around them. 'Oh this is Bob's listening room, no there is no TV, he just listens to music, he closes his eyes, he has tubes, he hears things we don't'.

I hope that doesn't ruffle any feathers, and I don't claim to be anything, or have a better ear, or some sort of audio sense better than most, but there are people, even in this membership that I genuinely feel (and hold nothing against) could have just as easily stumbled up a model railroading or classic car forum instead of Club Polk, and they would have the setup or classic car to show for it instead of a high end audio rig.

I would rather sit down and listen to a rig of any budget, that someone has setup, and lovingly tweaked vs someone who has just laid out the cash and bought the best they could. I've heard a lot of rigs in my travels, and some of them I wouldn't have in my home - but the ones that have been setup by someone who really cares, who is really into 'their' music experience - while I may not want it, most times I 'get it'. I can see (hear) what they were going for, and I respect that.

Cheers,
Russ

Excellent post, Russ. Agreed 100%.

DarqueKnight

RuSsMaN wrote: »

The problem with the designation itself, is that there are no qualifications. Sure, you can say that about most hobbies, hot rods, model railroading, sailing, etc. The one difference I find is that most other hobbies or interests or even lifestyles if you choose to view them as such, require some sort of basic (or even advanced knowledge), or perhaps even actual certifications.

You can buy a hotrod, but to build one, it takes a lot of time and know how. You can buy a kit for an HO railroad and a sheet of ply from Home Depot and be done - but to make it cool, to make it really neat - you need to be able to craft, and paint, and design, and be familar with transformers and eletrical circuits. Sailing, you need to learn how to sail, you can't just buy a skiff and set out and hope for success.

None of that holds true with audio.

That is a common misunderstanding. However, home stereo systems were meant to be used and enjoyed by knowledgeable and trained listeners. Indeed, many people have to be taught, or learn on their own, how to accurately perceive a three-dimensional stereo image.

Evidence of the requirement for knowledge and training can be found in the earliest research papers of the Bell Laboratories scientists who invented home stereo systems. Two such scientists, F. K. Harvey and M. R. Schroeder wrote:

"Critical listeners were sought in these tests because of a desire to set permanent standards. At the moment, only a small percentage of people fully appreciate high fidelity. Even less appreciate or understand stereo. However, there is a growing sophistication evidenced among users of stereo equipment. Anticipating the future, it seemed wise to avoid naive or unconcerned personnel in these tests to prevent establishing loose standards which eventually might have to be abandoned.

The listeners chosen were sophisticated in the art of sound localization either by working in this field or by education before testing. They were felt to be the equal of any serious listener who is accustomed to playing the same records many times and thus becomes familiar with the more subtle artistic and technical effects."

Reference: Harvey, F. K. and Schroeder, M. R., "Subjective Evaluation of Factors Affecting Two-Channel Stereophony", Journal of The Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 9, No. 1, January 1961, pp. 19-28.

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I would rather sit down and listen to a rig of any budget, that someone has setup, and lovingly tweaked vs someone who has just laid out the cash and bought the best they could.

It is people like this, the ones who just walk into an audio dealer and say "give me the best you've got", that are responsible for a lot of the derision aimed at audiophiles. These are ones most suceptible to the the voodoo marketing and snake oil because they don't take the time to learn how to listen.

cfrizz

Nice post Russ.

Toolfan66

Nice post Russ,

I remember when I stumbled onto this place when I was looking to upgrade the polk speakers I had, purchased a set of RTiA9's to replace my RT55i's, when I got on line to regester my new speakers is when I found CP, and the rest is history... as far as this hobby filling a void? it does now and then,and after a 10 to 12 hour work day it's nice to have a place at home just to unwind. This time of year my system's see less use with the weather being nice I would rather be outside wether it be working on the house,going to a car cruise hiking,biking ECT.. there is more to life then just stereo.... I also wouldn't want another hobby that would keep me in the house, getting out in the sun is a good thing now and then,and a healthy one.

steveinaz

I personally enjoy the challenge of getting the best possible sound, with the least amount of money---and then eeking every last inch of performance from those pieces.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

I personally enjoy the challenge of getting the best possible sound, with the least amount of money---and then eeking every last inch of performance from those pieces.

I agree 1000% and also the hunt for tubes has given me great pleasure as well as searching, experiencing and finding that all elusive great synergy between components.

H9

treitz3

RuSsMaN wrote: »

......They have opened their wallets to fill a void.

I can not for the life of me figure out why you said this.

Personally, I hate opening my wallet and I am an audiophile. I have other things in life that I enjoy spending my hard earned money on. I have sat here for the past 20 minutes trying to figure out where your logic is in this.

I come up with nothing. Life is good.

I entered this hobby when I was at the ripe old age of eight years old. My father and his father before him were hardcore into the hobby, along with my uncle Tommy. While I would not consider my grandfather an audiophile, mostly due to the recordings and technology that wasn't there at the time [I.E. high fidelity and the gear associated with...], I would most definitely consider him a music aficionado. All of these men, along with many audiophile friends that I have today [some on this board who know how to listen], had or have no void in their life that I can think of. Just a passion for the same thing I'm looking for. That being my signature. I'm sure you have seen it; In search of accurate reproduction of sound. Real sound is my reference.

Look, I'm not trying to back you up against a wall or point fingers. I'm just trying to figure out where you came up with the logic that an audiophile is trying to apparently fill a void by opening his/her wallet.

RuSsMaN

I didn't say everyone. I didn't say all audiophiles. I said there are some people, even here, that have done little more than buy gear, and then declare themselves audiophiles.

The point is, you can buy your way into this hobby but that has nothing do with what I consider being an audiophile, though a lot of people have, and will continue to do just that.

Tom, you can't back me into a wall, you know that.

DK, that last paragraph I couldn't agree more with.

Cheers,
Russ

Toolfan66

Well everyone has to start somewhere (if they want this to be a hobby) and sooner or later one has to open their wallet, but one must also have an open mind, and some common sense as well. and again isn't every hobby filling a void?? something to do that they find that they enjoy?? only a select few are lucky enough to make a living of their hobby. and on another note if people did not stumble into this hobby and find enjoyment in it wouldn't this hobby died many moons ago?

Just saying..

treitz3

DarqueKnight wrote: »

.....Two such scientists, F. K. Harvey and M. R. Schroeder wrote:

".....The listeners chosen were sophisticated in the art of sound localization either by working in this field or by education before testing......".

I'd like to take a moment to reflect on this. Sound localization. Unfortunately, many of the folks I have met on my audio journey have no clue what this means. Even the rich lad who plops 200K on "the best" at the local Hi-Fi shop. Some insist on listening out of the sweet spot and feel it sounds great. Some are just concerned about stereo effect. Some are just concerned about the SP level or the amount of bass that a rig puts out.

There are, as many here know, many more things that fall into play when listening for accurate reproduction. I would venture to say, based upon my audio path, that so many of the folks out there have not experienced this part of the reproduction yet. To me, that's where audiophilia [I know, it's not a word] begins.

Folks use words like sound stage, deep, wide and other words to describe the rig which is fine. That said, how many of you can say with 100% honesty that you can place everything within it's particular localization spot? I'm not talking about the guitar off to the right. Stereo can do that. I'm talking about the higher fidelity aspect to where the guitar is in relation to other instruments. Can you clearly tell where on the sound stage it is? How far back or forward is it to the other instruments? Is it 2' off to the right, 4' or 12' off to the right? If you have more than one guitarist, is one closer to you than the other? If so, 2', 4' or 10'?

Since we are on the subject of guitars, can you tell where each guitarist is and can you pinpoint exactly where the guitarist is strumming in relation to where he is plucking? Can you tell where this is happening with each guitar, even if there are 3 guitar players? Does this information [if you have it in the first place] get lost when the trumpets start playing and the drums kick in at a fast pace?

Some other things of the top of my head concerning localization....when the singer walks across the stage, can you hear him/her move across the stage as well? Can you tell when the singer sings into the left part of the microphone and switches to the right while at the same time, tell where he/she is on the stage?

When listening to a large orchestra and/or a choir, can you tell where each section is? You should be able to tell if they are in a small venue or large. Open venue or closed. You should be able to tell if everybody is on a flat surface or sitting on a gradually raised surface, such as bleachers. You should clearly be able to tell that the back of the ensemble is 20' up [for example] and even further back. The Tenor section is up front and lower center, while the bass section is divided into two sections. One on the upper left far corner and the other on the upper right far corner [again, for example]. With that, you should be able to tell if the orchestra is at listening level in relation to the chorus or lowered beneath you on the sound stage.

All of this [and much, much more] is all part of the localization that in my travels, many folks have not realized yet. That's why they don't know what it means. To them, it seems to still be stereo, frequencies, bass output, SPL levels or other factors they are concentrating on. It is the aforementioned factors, questions, evaluations and more that make up a high fidelity system. Not just left and right or any of the other things mentioned within this paragraph.

Here's where I may catch some flack. An audiophile [to me] is not a music lover, aficionado, or any of the other words used in this thread. An audiophile is one who looks at the questions above and first off, finds the localization as a starting point without BS'n him/herself. Then perfects it and every other aspect to achieve the accurate reproduction of real sound. Not just stereo.

Toolfan66

treitz3,

Yes and no to localization, I would say that when one's system starts to become for lack of better word ( hi-fi ) and you start to experiance the localization and your ears can pinpoint these areas, that is the drug that hits home and one starts their journey for the nirvana of quality sound. I love the fact that I can hear the drums further back from my wall or the pick hitting the strings as well as hearing the vocalist taking a breath. I know for me thats what drives me to try new things. cables,tubes,pre amps and well amps but the amps I have now will be with me for awhile..

So yes I know what your saying but I still feel it can be better..

heiney9

Tom, I always get a little chuckle out of your signature. I know you realize we are all at the mercy of the recorded source material. A studio engineer or mixing engineer continuously manipulates all the recorded material before the final master is pressed for sale to you and I.

He can boost/cut/fatten/compress/move, etc, etc all those lovely frequencies around to his liking or for a certain sound and it's not real. He adds a little reverb here a little compression there, he smooths out some of the high and slightly enhances a midrange vocal. He adds a little bit more oomph to a certain piano key run for emphasis.

In that regard recorded music is NOT like the real thing. It rarely, if ever is. So a quest to build an "audiophile" system around getting the sound to be just like a real event, is entirely moot.

That's the dichotomy of this hobby. We strive for realism and in the end we are at the mercy of the person who created the recording in the first place. You can own the finest equipment in the finest room and still not get something that is real.

It's a photograph vs. the real thing. It always will be.

H9

treitz3

Chuckle? Isn't that what we are all after?

Yes, I understand that the recording has a major impact on what we hear. You and I both know that with well recorded material, most of the things mentioned can and will happen. As far as real sound? Yes, that's not gonna happen. At least with our current technology. If ever.

heiney9

What's all real? A recording is just manipulation of a real event. I'm not talking about if it's pleasing. Tom's sig says:

In search of accurate reproduction of music. My reference is real sound.

Perhaps I read more into it, he's using real sound as a reference to guage how accurately the recorded material is 1) faithfully captured in a recording 2) faithfully reproduced on hi-fi equipment.

Ok, carry on.....I read something else into it. I thought he was saying at some point in his journey as an audiophile he would be able to recreate the real event, which can't be done.

H9

steveinaz

Some are missing Russman's point. He's saying (I believe) some rich folk blunk down tons of money on top flight equipment, because their pal, Buffy, said McIntosh is good (or whatever) but don't have a clue, nor are they really interested in the "ins and outs" of the hobby. They buy for STATUS, not any sincere interest in audio. Just like they buy a mega-dollar car, but have no knowledge of car mechanics, and do zero maintenance on it---you wouldn't call them a "car enthusiast" would you?

treitz3

heiney9 wrote: »

What's all real? A recording is just manipulation of a real event. I'm not talking about if it's pleasing. Tom's sig says:

In search of accurate reproduction of music. My reference is real sound.

Perhaps I read more into it, he's using real sound as a reference to gauge how accurately the recorded material is 1) faithfully captured in a recording 2) faithfully reproduced on hi-fi equipment.

Exactly.

What other reference is there? As far as getting real reproduced sound? I think we've covered that point.

kappclark

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Well everyone has to start somewhere (if they want this to be a hobby) and sooner or later one has to open their wallet, but one must also have an open mind, and some common sense as well. ..

YES - I well recall mowing lawns, saving up for that Scott stereo receiver (I thought it was so cool - it had IC's, whaterver they were (!) ) ..got some cheap MC1000 speakers at Allied Radio Shack, and I was off..a Garrard turntable and a columbia record club membership ... Now I am able to open the wallet (just a little bit, at least)

I am really pleased with how this thread is going ...

DarqueKnight

RuSsMaN wrote: »

I didn't say everyone. I didn't say all audiophiles. I said there are some people, even here, that have done little more than buy gear, and then declare themselves audiophiles.

The point is, you can buy your way into this hobby but that has nothing do with what I consider being an audiophile, though a lot of people have, and will continue to do just that.

All of the above is true of golf, wine tasting, hotrodding, photography and whatever other hobby. Curiously, unlike other hobbies, the clueless extremists in audio are taken to represent the mainstream.:frown:

treitz3 wrote: »

To me, that's where audiophilia [I know, it's not a word] begins.

Actually, it is a word:

audiophilia - enthusiasm for high fidelity sound and equipment.

Source: World Book Dictionary, 1973 ed., p. 137.

treitz3

DarqueKnight wrote: »

All of the above is true of golf, wine tasting, hotrodding, photography and whatever other hobby. Curiously, unlike other hobbies, the clueless extremists in audio are taken to represent the mainstream.:frown:



Actually, it is a word:

audiophilia - enthusiasm for high fidelity sound and equipment.

Source: World Book Dictionary, 1973 ed., p. 137.

Well, I guess I stand erected.

victor. askew

I must admit that most of the time when my system is playing I am busy doing something else and the music is there and while I am enjoying it being played Im really not listening to the details/ sound staging thats being produced. When I am sitting in front of the system and paying attention to nothing else but the music then yes I can pick out alot of what Treiz 3 points out. I also can not pick out alot of what he points out due to a total lack of hearing ability on my part. ( Navy boiler/ engine rooms to thank for that) I just can not hear to that level of detail And even if I could Im not sure I would be able to describe what I was hearing. I cant miss out on something if I dont know or cant describe what it is thats missing and cant hear it anyway even if its there.

DarqueKnight

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, I guess I stand erected.

OK, but don't get too close to your speakers when you're standing erected...you might knock a voice coil out of alignment.

victor. askew

Hello to all. Well last nite I finally got around to hooking up a 2nd set of spkrs and a 2nd amp in to the system. All spkrs are paired off R/L sitting next to each other on stands and isolation blocks All yamaha's, 2 NS 500m's and 2 NS 200ma's spkrs. WOW the wall of sound these things produce even when being driven at a lower volume is nothing short stunning. I think this will be my normal set up moving forward. The 2 subs had to be readjusted to a lower freq, to 60 hZ vice 80 hz to remove the boominess that was present. All in all a well spent 1 hr of work positioning spkrs( tweaking). ( NS 500m's are damm heavy spkrs for sure). Can't wait to spend more time with this set up this weekend. Long live AUDIO.:cool:

thesurfer

DarqueKnight wrote: »

OK, but don't get too close to your speakers when you're standing erected...you might knock a voice coil out of alignment.

Wow, how would you know that??

polkfarmboy

treitz3 wrote: »

Videophiles, the HT crowd and buttmunches with their crap for sound cars should never be confused with an audiophile. Ever.

This statement implies that you are not an audiophile if you like anything other than 2 ch ?

Audiophiles just a word meaning lover of sound so the articles a load of crap :cool:. Back in the day there was not anything cool like videogames , 3d movies or 9.1 surround systems controlled by advanced micro chips . If the article means the old audiophile who had nothing better to do than spend a crap load of money for not very good sound then yes that old audiophile chumps long gone . Today we have forums to bust the myths of some high end and you can get great sound for being smart and wise with the cash

There is a particular buttmunch who has a better sound system in his car than you probably do in your home treitz3

Toolfan66

Sounds Like you have it all figured out...

thesurfer

polkfarmboy wrote: »

This statement implies that you are not an audiophile if you like anything other than 2 ch ?

Audiophiles just a word meaning lover of sound so the articles a load of crap :cool:. Back in the day there was not anything cool like videogames , 3d movies or 9.1 surround systems controlled by advanced micro chips . If the article means the old audiophile who had nothing better to do than spend a crap load of money for not very good sound then yes that old audiophile chumps long gone . Today we have forums to bust the myths of some high end and you can get great sound for being smart and wise with the cash

There is a particular buttmunch who has a better sound system in his car than you probably do in your home treitz3[/QUOTWoW, thats letting him know, But Hey, i get your point.

Toolfan66

TROLL WATER must be on sale again!!!

thesurfer

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

Sounds Like you have it all figured out...

Do YOu? I Do,

polkfarmboy

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

TROLL WATER must be on sale again!!!

You must be thirsty :rolleyes:

Its funny the way your always calling people on the forum things like POS !!! troll and mouthing off .

Toolfan66

And it's always the same ducks I say it to..