SDA Effect or Sonic Holography
Hawkeye
Posts: 1,313
I've been doing some reading and it seems to me that both Polk and Carver were attacking the problem of inter-channel crosstalk from different angles.
While I've enjoyed my time with the SDA, I'm wondering if the Carver approach is more advanced. Not to say one is better than the other, it's just a topic for discussion. I've recently purchased a Carver C1 with the Sonic Holography (I remember these when they were new and couldn't afford it)and comparing it to Polk's SDA process, they seem to have the same intent.
Gordon
While I've enjoyed my time with the SDA, I'm wondering if the Carver approach is more advanced. Not to say one is better than the other, it's just a topic for discussion. I've recently purchased a Carver C1 with the Sonic Holography (I remember these when they were new and couldn't afford it)and comparing it to Polk's SDA process, they seem to have the same intent.
Gordon
2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
Post edited by Hawkeye on
Comments
-
Their approach is similar, but I've found the sonic holography to have a much narrower "sweet spot" than the SDA effect and for most listening the SDA effect is much more enjoyable.Main System: Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers, Sunfire Signature 600~two Amp, Carver C-16 Preamp, Carver TX-11b Tuner, Marantz 6350Q TT, Philips CDR-775 Recorder, Teac V-707RX Cassette Deck, Signal Cable Double Run Speaker Cable
Upstairs Den: Marantz 2325 Receiver, Marantz 5220 Cassette Deck, Marantz HD-880 Speakers, Marantz 6370Q TT
Exercise (Kabuki speaker) Room: Kenwood KR-9600 Receiver, Pioneer CS-99a Speakers, Sansui SP-X9000 Speakers (not pretty, but LOUD!
) -
The Carver way was an attempt to adress the problem though electronics, and SDA was a more physical approach. I prefer SDA much more than sonic holography.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
There is a old thread around here someplace that covers the whole topic of SDA and Sonic Holography..I would like to have my ears on the Carver..
-
I've used my C-1 with a TFM-35 and a pair of Mon 7B Peerless. Setup and dialing it in is tricky. I found the effect varies with the the recording. Just as with SDA, some sounded better than others. The SH has merit when you hit the sweet spot. If you have it in house, hook her up and give it a whirl..>
>
>This message has been scanned by the NSA and found to be free of harmful intent.< -
Wondering if the "Phase Control" feature on my Pioneer AVR is trying to achive the same thing? Here is how Pioneer describes it in the manual:Better sound using Phase Control
This receivers Phase Control feature uses phase correction measures to make sure your sound source arrives at the listening position in phase, preventing unwanted distortion and/or coloring of the sound (see illustration below).
During multichannel playback, LFE (Low-Frequency Effects) signals as well as low frequency signals in each channel are assigned to the subwoofer or other the subwoofer and the most appropriate speaker. At least in theory, however, this type of processing involves a group delay that varies with frequency, resulting in phase distortion where the low-frequency sound is delayed or muffled by the conflict with other channels. With the Phase Control mode switched on, this receiver can reproduce powerful bass sound without deteriorating the quality of the original sound.- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
- Crossover upgrades by westmassguy
- Marantz 1504 AVR (front speaker pre-outs to Adcom 555)
- Adcom GFA-555 amp · Upgrades & speaker protection added by OldmanSRS
- Pioneer DV-610AV DVD/CD player
- SDA CRS+ · Hidden away in the closet
- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
-
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
I guess that explains the 125,000 hits on the "Looking for SDAs" thread.>
>
>This message has been scanned by the NSA and found to be free of harmful intent.< -
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
Blue, you're absolutely right. Perhaps folks didn't want to fiddle around with positioning or it didn't fit with the room decor, or any number of reasons. I do believe both of them were on to something that the population hasn't caught up with yet. I'm not a freak on either or, just trying to understand why this science died off and was abandoned.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
Polkersince85 wrote: »I guess that explains the 125,000 hits on the "Looking for SDAs" thread.
I'm sure that if polk thought rehashing the sdas would be very profitable, they probably would. I have a feeling that the size of the cabinets is just one of the big reasons that they would probably be unpopular. -
Wondering if the "Phase Control" feature on my Pioneer AVR is trying to achieve the same thing? Here is how Pioneer describes it in the manual:
Actually phase control addresses a different problem. Some recordings are actually out of phase (like connecting your speakers + and - backward) and the phase control feature found on many amps and pre amps lets the user control phase to obtain the best sound possible.
I have lived extensively with both Sonic Holography and SDA's. I like both technologies and would recommend SH to anyone who doesn't have SDA's. As stated, I found the sweet spot smaller on SH but the effect as times can be more pronounced, however I find the SDA effect more natural sounding. One huge advantage of SH is that it can be recored ed. I use a Carver CT-Seven for a pre amp when ripping vinyl and if I leave the SH switch on the resulting digital file has the really wide three dimensional sound stage. There is one area where sonic holography should not be used; when using SDA's. If SH is engaged with SDA's the effect is almost unalienable. Horrible imaging and unnatural sound. Either technology on it's own is very good in my opinion.SDA-1C (full mods)
Carver TFM-55
NAD 1130 Pre-amp
Rega Planar 3 TT/Shelter 501 MkII
The Clamp
Revox A77 Mk IV Dolby reel to reel
Thorens TD160/Mission 774 arm/Stanton 881S Shibata
Nakamichi CR7 Cassette Deck
Rotel RCD-855 with modified tube output stage
Cambridge Audio DACmagic Plus
ADC Soundshaper 3 EQ
Ben's IC's
Nitty Gritty 1.5FI RCM -
Hello, Hawkeye. I have had, heard and used both the SDA and the Sonic Holography technologies with a plethora of gear, rooms and scenarios. In my observations, Polk did the technology more justice than Carver. The effect can be nothing short of stellar on both but with that said, the SH tends to be extremely picky with both recording and gear while the SDA's perform well on most everything they play. The SDA's also seem to be a little more forgiving with the gear used with them and can sound stellar with both tubes and SS. Many times I found myself turning the SH off. This being due to a slight roll off of the higher frequencies and bass reduction/sloppiness. On the other hand, I never found myself wanting to unplug the SDA cable to defeat its purpose.
One of the positives of the SH is that you are not limited to one speaker, or a lineup thereof, to use the technology. You can use whatever speaker you want.....except the SDA's and a few select others because you never want to blend the two technologies. Ever. In my travels, SH tends to do better overall with tubes than with SS gear.
I'm a fan of both and if you want to satisfy your curiosity? That's one thing. If you think that SH will offer you more than the SDA's, you might want to save your money. Both of them can be a challenge to dial in "perfectly" to experience what they both have to offer but between the two? SDA's offer more, for less demanding criteria to set them up properly and enjoy what they have to offer.
Good luck and have fun in whatever you decide to do.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
Ummmmm......Polk still uses SDA technology.
Gordon, I've had both and that's why I still have SDA's.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
I think both companies moved a considerable amount of product incorporating their respective technologies. -
I think both companies moved a considerable amount of product incorporating their respective technologies.
True. I have a pair of SDA-2s sitting in the storage (dining) room. However, it would be nice if I could buy something new today that has either technology, but I do not recall seeing anything like it being sold today.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Truck setup
Alpine 9856
Phoenix Gold RSD65CS
For Sale
Polk SR6500
Polk SR5250
Polk SR104Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec. -
^+1
Look at the Polk Surroundbar's...
Right......http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/surroundbar/
While it's not the same as the original designed for 2 channel music speakers of old, it's way cool that Polk still uses the technology.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
There are others available in the form of computer DSP's, but they're either very expensive or a very unconventional(odd) listening environment is required. I'm looking forward to inter-channel crosstalk DSP's becoming affordable or even free.
For those using J. River, there is a crossfeed plug-in available in options, audio, dsp, headphones."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
For whatever reason, neither approach caught on with the public, and both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
Not true; Sunfire still offers Sonic Holography on their preamplifiers.
Gordon, I can't IMAGINE putting that old C-1 in with your BEAUTIFUL rack of MacIntosh gear~ but I think you'd like the result.
Thanks for the opportunity to have a listen this past Saturday!TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
They didn't catch on in their original formats because the whole thing is simply too geeky for the masses, this also goes for SACD & DVD-A. The vast majority of people simply want to listen to music & watch their movies, including me. I don't really care how it is achieved so long as it works & sounds great.
I don't want some huge boxes taking up half of my livingroom, I don't care how good they sound. And having the Sonic Holigraphy within my prepro just means I push a button to have it in effect, that's fine.
There is also the fact that to get that sound you had/have to pay big bucks for it, which most people are not willing to do. And if they were, they would be just as geeky as the rest of you nerds who care about it.
Having the SDA or Sonic Holigraphy effect may enhance the enjoyment of the music, but it isn't mandatory or essential to anyone who just wants to listen to some tunes.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
From a purists stand point the acoustic approach done by Polk would look to be superior.To derive the SH signal electronically Carver add's numerous opamp sections to the signal path.In the schematics I have examined these opamps were rather less than stellar quad units.
-
I've been doing some reading and it seems to me that both Polk and Carver were attacking the problem of inter-channel crosstalk from different angles.
While I've enjoyed my time with the SDA, I'm wondering if the Carver approach is more advanced. Not to say one is better than the other, it's just a topic for discussion. I've recently purchased a Carver C1 with the Sonic Holography (I remember these when they were new and couldn't afford it)and comparing it to Polk's SDA process, they seem to have the same intent.
Gordon
Gordon, no Carver's isn't more advanced. If anything it sounds a little less natural. And also, SDA is not an effect. It's a true aural phenomenon that the SDA's decrease. Inner aural crosstalk is a byproduct of stereo reproduction, the properties of the SDA minimize this.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
both have been abandoned by their manufacturers.
Polk still uses SDA technology in a product called "The Surround Bar', perhaps you've heard of it? It took Matt and few engineers about 7 years to develop the advancement in technology to make it possible
They also used it in the SRT system, they have never completely abandoned it at any point.
Carver is defunct, has been defunct so naturally it was abandoned.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Not true; Sunfire still offers Sonic Holography on their preamplifiers.
Yes, you are right. I just revisted their web-site. At least somebody offers this technology for stereo mode. Even if they are doing it in AVRs, not true two channel gear. Also, Sunfire is implementing it via DSP. I wonder if that is better, the same, or worse than the Carver analog method.
It would be nice if Sunfire would finally offer products that can decode the latest Bluray lossless formats. I remember looking at this gear a few years ago to go with my Sunfire TGA-5400 amp, but passed due to its lack of Bluray support.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Yes, you are right. I just revisted their web-site. At least somebody offers this technology for stereo mode. Even if they are doing it in AVRs, not true two channel gear. Also, Sunfire is implementing it via DSP. I wonder if that is better, the same, or worse than the Carver analog method.
It would be nice if Sunfire would finally offer products that can decode the latest Bluray lossless formats. I remember looking at this gear a few years ago to go with my Sunfire TGA-5400 amp, but passed due to its lack of Bluray support.
I've been supremely happy with mine, but I've been told the dedicated Carver C-9 Sonic Holography Unit is the best representation out there.TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
Here's a diversionary question: I've heard that Carver units with SH are somewhat less than robust in their 'reliability'. I have at least two friends whose units seem to 'always' be in the shop? One says he 'rarely' uses the SH circuit because it sounds so 'artificial'.
Me, I don't know. I've never heard it so I take everyone's word above until I do. But I can tell you that I'm not dying to hear it because I do have a set of SDAs and they seem more than good enough.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Here's a diversionary question: I've heard that Carver units with SH are somewhat less than robust in their 'reliability'. I have at least two friends whose units seem to 'always' be in the shop? One says he 'rarely' uses the SH circuit because it sounds so 'artificial'.
Me, I don't know. I've never heard it so I take everyone's word above until I do. But I can tell you that I'm not dying to hear it because I do have a set of SDAs and they seem more than good enough.
cnh
Do you know which units? Some of the later models, when Carver Corp had removed Bob & they were busy going into debt to the tune of $11 million, were crappy Japanese/Chinese junk. Hint: look for the oval shaped window~
I know a LOT of folks with Carver units & while many of them get sent in after the 20-30 year point, that's common as caps begin failing around that time frame....TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
Off hand I can't remember but I'll ask. Around what years are we talking--because I don't really know Carver history that well?
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
I've had both, prefer SDA.
SH CAN be amazing but it's a real pain in the **** to set up and the sweet spot is microscopic.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Carver is defunct, has been defunct so naturally it was abandoned.
H9
As stated above, Sonic Holography is alive and well. It is in every pre, pro. and receiver sunfire has.design is where science and art break even. -
As stated above, Sonic Holography is alive and well. It is in every pre, pro. and receiver sunfire has.
I stated Carver, not Sunfire and Sunfire is no longer associated with Carver or Bob Carver.
Good to know it's still incorporated in some form in current Sunfire gear. Although, SDA's do it a little more naturally and is easier to set-up and enjoy, especially later SDA's.
The current Polk surround bars are really incredible considering the small footprint and aesthetics involved. More evolved than the passive process of SDA's, but then also geared squarely at the HT crowd and associated special effects of muli-channel movie entertainment.
I'd take the passive process of SDA's any day.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
