Custom Canare 4s11 cables vs. MIT EXP 2
Comments
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DarqueKnight wrote: »Voice no (low baritone as compared to Vader's growly low bass).
Personality, yes.
LOL!:biggrin:Testing
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DarqueKnight wrote: »How can you know when you have found something if you don't even know what you should be looking for.
That's how you end up finding the most important things in your life... mere chance. Rarely do people know exactly what they really want in life... if they do know, when they get it, they find it isn't what they imagined.
Of course different things for different people ... but you know I meant better taste for the vodka, and better performance (as far as handling, acceleration, ect) for the ferrari. I was trying to illustrate the point that the difference in those price ranges should be readily apparent... and cables seem to have been an anticlimax. Can you immediately tell the difference between the ferrari and the saturn? you'd have to be a complete helen keller not to notice.
It's not about preference or use scenario, because when you compare a product with its equivalent in a price class 100 times higher, regardless of whether you will use it, you should damn well notice the difference... and it shouldn't take a pen and paper to figure it out.
As I said, if that is not the case with cables, then they probably just aren't my thing.
edit: no, I wasn't expecting much out of the cables. I expected this result, and hoped for a small improvement. So it's not like I was being unrealistic with my expectations. -
You will find out that in the cable industry, most peoples mouths are bigger than their ears.
That said, once you find the right cables, you will never go back.
They call it a "Cable Merry-go-Round" for a reason.
Sometimes it can get you somewhere, sometimes it just makes you dizzy!:biggrin:Testing
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cokewithvanilla, I would suggest you live with the MIT's for 2 weeks. After that, swap your old cables back in.
I would say closer to 2 months Jess, then swap your old cables back in.
Even if they do not work for some of you,thats cool, not every cable is a match made in heaven for your system. Kinda like kissing alot of girls before you find the one to marry. Come to think of it, cables are cheaper than that too.
HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I would say closer to 2 months Jess, then swap your old cables back in.
Even if they do not work for some of you,thats cool, not every cable is a match made in heaven for your system. Kinda like kissing alot of girls before you find the one to marry. Come to think of it, cables are cheaper than that too.
336 accumulated hours (14 24-hr. days) of varied music being played at listenable volume is where you need to be before you begin swapping back and forth for serious comparison.
And the girlfriend analogy is a good one; I think is was about 336 hours of accumululated sex before I proposed (37 years ago) :biggrin:VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
Can you immediately tell the difference between the ferrari and the saturn? you'd have to be a complete helen keller not to notice.
To the uninformed and/or inexperienced, a car is a car. Much like some folks think a cable is a cable.
For example, at one time I had a nice car with a hopped up motor, including a hot rod cam that would cause the car to idle extremely rough. One day I stopped to see if a pretty young thing on the side of the road needed help as her hood was up. Turns out she didn't need help, she was just checking the oil or some such. Anyway, as she was leaning in my passenger window, she asked me what was wrong with my car. Ummm...not a damn thing, but she didn't know any better. Not unlike a number of folks here.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
For example, at one time I had a nice car with a hopped up motor, including a hot rod cam that would cause the car to idle extremely rough. One day I stopped to see if a pretty young thing on the side of the road needed help as her hood was up. Turns out she didn't need help, she was just checking the oil or some such. Anyway, as she was leaning in my passenger window, she asked me what was wrong with my car. Ummm...not a damn thing, but she didn't know any better. Not unlike a number of folks here.
But it didn't take her a pen and three ring binder to notice that your car is idling rough (due to an aggressive cam).
While she didn't know better, she did hear a difference without any props. -
I love the way the mods here will let a thread on cables continue as long as all are saying that expensive cables = better sound.
The minute there is debate.....the thread is closed down. Just saying. -
I love the way the mods here will let a thread on cables continue as long as all are saying that expensive cables = better sound.
The minute there is debate.....the thread is closed down. Just saying.
Not True!! Where is anyone saying that? The folks here that know not only preach that cables matter, are the same folks that say everything matters!! (including myself) not one of us say "expensive cables = better sound" it's all about synergy... Audioquest Type 4 cables are not expensive IMO,and I push and love them just as much. as a matter of fact these cables would be all most would need here as far as an upgraded cable. I say that only because most here seem to run an AVR, Pioneer,Oynko,ECT. IMO someone at said level would be crazy spending the extra funds on say MIT SHOTGUNS. In my HT rig I run all Audioquest Cables, and Bluejeans Speaker wire for the surrounds (Not Expensive)
Now my 2 channel rig?? different story (MIT SHOTGUNS all around) but it's on a different level IMO. my rig will let me hear the difference of blacks being blacker and has taught me what synergy means. not all gear will mesh with other gear.
Lets say you have a piece of gear that cost $5k? and you shop for another piece of gear to match with it, so you find something you like and it cost you say $3k you receive it set it up and your unhappy with the results,kinda of upset as you just spent $3k on one piece of gear. so one of your buddys comes over with lets say a $700 pre amp ties it in with your $5k amp and your pirmagrin starts up,and your just WOW'ED!!! this is the start of your trip into the rabbit hole with synergy..
It's not about being expensive all the time, it's about taking the time within your budget,and the willingness to try different things out.. if you buy used you will lose little if any money at all.
Every Hobby cost money!!! Guns,Cars,Audio,Biking,collecting stamps,ECT....
Back to Jesse's car, Jesse couldn't just put in any cam and get great performance he had to have the other parts around it to perform right. Intake,Carburator,Ignition,"WIRES!!!" ECT...
Synergy!!! It's all about Synergy!!! some get it, some will get it, some will never get it.. -
Personally I get my bonus on Friday and plan to order 2 sets of the 10 footers. If I don't notice a difference downstairs in my HT (after making allowances for burn in and then switching back) I will probably then just move one set upstairs into my 2 channel office rig and sell the other for what I paid.
Its not like this is a huge deal, I honestly have more cash into my custom built cables using GLS Locking Banana's and Audioquest FLX 14/4 wire than a set of the MIT's.
If their is a difference, awesome. And if not at least I didn't pay full MSRP to find that out and I can easily recoup my losses and possibly make a bit of cash as well.
What we all seem to be losing site of is the fact that if you cant tell a difference Great, and you only paid 25% of what you would have normally to find that out.
Not only did you learn a lesson about your ears and system, but you learned it at a MASSIVELY discounted rate."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
EndersShadow wrote: »Not only did you learn a lesson about your ears and system, but you learned it at a MASSIVELY discounted rate.
Just for clarification: When you say 'learn a lesson about your ears' what are you saying exactly? -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Every Hobby cost money!!! Guns,Cars,Audio,Biking,collecting stamps,ECT....
Agreed there. For $1K I could get a set of cables or build a pair of Statements. For $1.5K you could get someone else to build the Statements (or another high end DIY build).
I know personally for me that the speakers are a guaranteed SQ difference. After that I just want a good source, hopefully axe the pre from the chain and go straight to amp. I'll keep my IC's and Speaker level cables short as possible. -
Just for clarification: When you say 'learn a lesson about your ears' what are you saying exactly?
One of two things:
Your system lacks the components (synergy, ect) to tell the difference
OR
Your ears just aren't sensitive enough at this point to tell the difference. You can either train them to do so, or just not worry about them and use whatever wires you want."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Not True!! Where is anyone saying that? The folks here that know not only preach that cables matter, are the same folks that say everything matters!! (including myself) not one of us say "expensive cables = better sound" it's all about synergy... Audioquest Type 4 cables are not expensive IMO,and I push and love them just as much. as a matter of fact these cables would be all most would need here as far as an upgraded cable. I say that only because most here seem to run an AVR, Pioneer,Oynko,ECT. IMO someone at said level would be crazy spending the extra funds on say MIT SHOTGUNS. In my HT rig I run all Audioquest Cables, and Bluejeans Speaker wire for the surrounds (Not Expensive)
Now my 2 channel rig?? different story (MIT SHOTGUNS all around) but it's on a different level IMO. my rig will let me hear the difference of blacks being blacker and has taught me what synergy means. not all gear will mesh with other gear.
Lets say you have a piece of gear that cost $5k? and you shop for another piece of gear to match with it, so you find something you like and it cost you say $3k you receive it set it up and your unhappy with the results,kinda of upset as you just spent $3k on one piece of gear. so one of your buddys comes over with lets say a $700 pre amp ties it in with your $5k amp and your pirmagrin starts up,and your just WOW'ED!!! this is the start of your trip into the rabbit hole with synergy..
It's not about being expensive all the time, it's about taking the time within your budget,and the willingness to try different things out.. if you buy used you will lose little if any money at all.
Every Hobby cost money!!! Guns,Cars,Audio,Biking,collecting stamps,ECT....
Back to Jesse's car, Jesse couldn't just put in any cam and get great performance he had to have the other parts around it to perform right. Intake,Carburator,Ignition,"WIRES!!!" ECT...
Synergy!!! It's all about Synergy!!! some get it, some will get it, some will never get it..
Synergy. Here is what I run for my 2ch set up
CDP : NAD M5
Pre : Naim NAC 552
Amp : Naim NAP 500
Speakers : Totem Wind
Speaker Cables : 1. Cardass clear speaker, 2. Cardass Golden ref, 3. Pear Comice and blue Jeans.
Yes each cable sounds slightly different but the price difference is NOT commensurate with the sonic difference. I'm sure the 4K MIT would also sound 'different' but would it justify the price? Just saying. -
Cables sound different. Spending a lot of money may or may not
get you the sound you want.
I tried a number of Monster cables I got 80% off at a store closing.
They did nothing for me. That including z3 and z1 speaker cables.
50%-80% off AQ cables, now there's the sound. That led me to several sets
of Kimber Hero I/C's. Those are winners. I tried another set of used
AQ speaker cables. Different, but still not right. The winner?
A speaker cable set made with 12/4 SJO electrical cord salvaged from under
a computer raised floor. Add some nice spades, and they have the best
sound with my current set up. Great mids and bass, with just a bit of high end roll off.
Yet with other speaker sets, I find the AQ's sound much better.
I buy used or shop close outs. The only full price cables were the Kimber I/C's,
but I don't regret it for one minute.
Summery: pick out a good amp, source and speakers, then at that point
think about dropping coin on cables. Cables should be the last place you spend your money.
Other upgrades are money better spent. And a good
cable on system A might suck on system B. Get the system first."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
EndersShadow wrote: »One of two things:
Your system lacks the components (synergy, ect) to tell the difference
OR
Your ears just aren't sensitive enough at this point to tell the difference. You can either train them to do so, or just not worry about them and use whatever wires you want.
So you have dismissed a third possibility that people with EXTREMELY high resolution systems have posited: They don't make an audible difference that you can follow blind.
What's your rig consist of? -
EndersShadow wrote: »One of two things:
Your system lacks the components (synergy, ect) to tell the difference
OR
Your ears just aren't sensitive enough at this point to tell the difference. You can either train them to do so, or just not worry about them and use whatever wires you want.
That my friend is an insult. Yes there is a difference between cables, but it is slight and it does not justify a $1,000 i price. Some of you'll may feel that the price difference is justified, so be it.
I firmly belive that sonic difference does not equal price difference.
ps - lets see how long before this thread is shut down. -
So you have dismissed a third possibility that people with EXTREMELY high resolution systems have posited: They don't make an audible difference that you can follow blind.
What's your rig consist of?
I concede that I did not cover that and it it totally possible. I was not dismissing it, I just lumped it in with the second part, which was also not meant as an insult.
Regarding my rig, its in my sig, but will be moving from M60 & CS2 front stage to LSi 15's and a CSi5 shortly (yes I am aware they are from two different lines and might not be a totally perfectly timbre match). The M40's will be replaced by Infinity Primus 162's.That my friend is an insult. Yes there is a difference between cables, but it is slight and it does not justify a $1,000 i price. Some of you'll may feel that the price difference is justified, so be it.
I firmly believe that sonic difference does not equal price difference.
ps - lets see how long before this thread is shut down.
I apologize if it was taken that way. It was not meant to insult anyone. I agree that some folks don't think the price justifies the performance, and there is nothing wrong with that thought. I am in the camp that I can hear some differences, but I dont plan on buying super expensive cables. That is because I personally think that my best bet for my system is better speakers, rather than wires.
Each of us has to make our own decisions on when the cost/benefit ratio becomes cost prohibitive. This is true for components (CD transports, DAC's, ect), Wires (Interconnects & Speaker wire), and Speakers.
In my case, these MIT's will probably be as high as I go, as well as only getting Signal Cable Analog 2's for my interconnects. I was able to hear a discernible difference between them and some monsters at the last Indy meet.
The best way to look at it for me is to use Polks speaker lineup. This is my experience from personal demo's and if you dont agree with it that is totally fine.
There is a MASSIVE improvement from the R/Monitor/M line to the RTi line. I will call it a 5 or 6x improvement. Going from the RTi to LSi line yields an improvement as well, but more along the lines of IMHO 1 or 2x max. When you look at the pricing differences you have to decide if you have the RTi's if you really want to pay the difference in price for a not as big improvement or not.
The same is true in cables IMHO. How much do you want to pay for that little bit extra of improvement? It could be you find the higher you go, the more you have to pay for just that little bit extra whereas to jump from the basic to decent midrange doesnt have nearly the sticker shock.
You also have system synergy, which may allow for what some would consider lower end cables to make your system sound better than higher end cables. I personally dont know enough about it to have formed an opinion so I will not comment on it.
Overall there is room for all trains of though in this great hobby we call audio. If you want to say I am a totally off base and you dont believe me, you have that ability. Its what I love about this hobby. However keeping the debates debates and not crap slinging contest seems to be a problem sometimes.
I do apologize if my comments were taken as insults, they were not meant to call anyone stupid, dumb or the like. I was simply saying some of us just might not have the "golden ears" others do. There is nothing wrong with that.
I will openly admit there are many folks here much smarter than me. So if you said compared to DK for example you dont know s@#t, I wouldnt take offense, but agree with you totally "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
But it didn't take her a pen and three ring binder to notice that your car is idling rough (due to an aggressive cam).
While she didn't know better, she did hear a difference without any props.
Dear Sir,
Your reading comprehension is lacking. She noticed that the car was shaking like crazy because she was leaning on it.
F1Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Dear Troll,
Your reading comprehension is lacking. She noticed that the car was shaking like crazy because she was leaning on it.
F1
Dear Sir,
Read your own post again.... There's no way to tell whether it was from leaning on the car or simply listening to it by your post.
When I go to car shows with a friend of mine (owns a 68' 442 w/ hurst shifter), trust me you don't need to lean on a car to know it has an aggressively lobed CAM when listening at idle. You can hear that 50 ft away. -
Read your own post again.... There's no way to tell whether it was from leaning on the car or simply listening to it by your post.
When I go to car shows with a friend of mine (owns a 68' 442 w/ hurst shifter), trust me you don't need to lean on a car to know it has an aggressively lobed CAM when listening at idle. You can hear that 50 ft away.
Not only that, I think the point was that the a difference was noticed easily and instantly by an uninitiated person.... what that person made of the difference is a moot point.
I think if I learned anything from this thread, or from this purchase, it has been that cables will be my LAST upgrade from now on... and when people suggest that a major problem with my system could be the cables, I can safely ignore that suggestion. -
I love the way the mods here will let a thread on cables continue as long as all are saying that expensive cables = better sound.
The minute there is debate.....the thread is closed down. Just saying.
For you to make a sweeping generalization like that, there must be many, many examples of that. Can you provide two examples of our moderators shutting down a thread solely because one or a few people said expensive cables do not equate to better sound.That my friend is an insult. Yes there is a difference between cables, but it is slight and it does not justify a $1,000 i price. Some of you'll may feel that the price difference is justified, so be it.
I firmly belive that sonic difference does not equal price difference.
You are being insulting by insinuating that people are "stupid" who are willing to pay a price you believe to be unjustified for the performance gained. Who are you to tell someone what they should do with their money? That is extremely arrogant and insulting. It is also arrogant to assume that, just because you obtained a little improvement for a lot of money, everyone else's results will be the same or similar to yours.
It would be more appropriate to say that, for the cables you tried in your audio system, you did not find the additional sonic benefit commensurate with the price. Then inform regarding which cables were used with what audio gear. That would be useful information. Continually whining about your personal experience with diminishing returns from higher priced cables is not useful information. Most people here are intelligent enough to know that, with anything, price is not always equivalent to performance and that as you go up in price, with anything, the law of diminishing returns kicks in and you start to pay increasingly more money for more incremental improvements. Whether those incremental improvements are worth the price is a personal matter for the consumer.ps - lets see how long before this thread is shut down.
Why do you keep harping on this? Are you anxious to see the thread shut down because people are expressing opinions and personal experiences that are different from yours?
Why would it be a big deal if the tread gets shut down? Don't you have other people in the real world and on other forums you can discuss this subject with even if the thread did get shut down? Why are you so bitter?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Dear Sir,
Read your own post again.... There's no way to tell whether it was from leaning on the car or simply listening to it by your post.
When I go to car shows with a friend of mine (owns a 68' 442 w/ hurst shifter), trust me you don't need to lean on a car to know it has an aggressively lobed CAM when listening at idle. You can hear that 50 ft away.
Dear Sir,
My stating that she was leaning on the car indicates physical contact with said vehicle. No where did I state anything about the noise. That is where your lack of reading comprehension, among other issues, comes into play.
Another of your typical epic failures.
F1Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Keiko, I guess I never will get it. In your book, I would have to test every single cable ever made, take careful notes on each, then decide.
Hell, putting your head 3 inches to the left can change sound stage, and position of instruments and such. How likely is it that you will be in the exact same place/position for all your listening and writing?
The conclusion you offer is either: A. I was ripped off. B. The 'synergy' is the EXACT same... which is statistically improbable considering all the differences in the cables. I like to offer options C and D, I can't hear the difference, and there is no difference.... is that not ok?
Perhaps this is not about 'getting it'... can't people differ in opinion? Can I not say that "generally, I do not notice the differences between cables, so I will choose to upgrade different parts of my system before I think about cables" If I simply don't notice such a subtle difference (if there is a difference at all, because there are TONS of people on both side of the argument), is it so wrong to say so? Must I say again, that if someone even has to suggest to me to get out a pen and paper to see the difference, the difference has to be negligible? No one says that with speaker upgrades... so by me doing a cost/benefit analysis and saying I'll spend on cables last, what don't I get? -
Your mind's already made up, Coke. So you may safely ignore anymore discussion on this topic.
It seems like your mind is made up too...
so are you suggesting that the only ones who can participate in this discussion are those who believe, like you do, that there is a great difference? -
Of course not. I was just reinforcing for you what you had said. Sorry if you didn't get that.
I'm out.
Maybe I wasn't clear. The only thing I was saying is that, IMO, cables, especially speaker cables, make the least difference that I have noticed in sound compared to all other major components (those that are required for sound).
Am I wrong in my assumption? What would you put cables above?
I am not trashing on cables... I am just saying that they probably won't be for me. As DK mentioned, I will probably need a pen and paper to hear the difference... because of this, I can safely say that I probably don't need that kind of difference.
notice... I am saying nothing about YOU or anyone else. -
Dear Sir,
My stating that she was leaning on the car indicates physical contact with said vehicle. No where did I state anything about the noise. That is where your lack of reading comprehension, among other issues, comes into play.
Another of your typical epic failures.
F1
Dear Sir,
Your post reads like she was leaning into your car to ask you what was wrong with it (due to it being loud?) and making sure you could hear her. She wasn't leaning into it to make idle chit/chat. She was leaning in to ask a question. That question being: What's wrong with your car.
It's still not pertinent to the topic that she didn't need a pen and paper to figure it out. Whether audible or by tactile feedback she instanly new a 'difference'. She doesn't have to know why the difference is there. You didn't have to let your car warm up for 200 hours. -
cokewithvanilla wrote: »Not only that, I think the point was that the a difference was noticed easily and instantly by an uninitiated person.... what that person made of the difference is a moot point.
Ohhhh...the cultural and societal longing for the "quick fix". Stereo ain't that type of party.
With something as multi-dimensional as the sound field generated by stereophonic speakers, sometimes a difference will be easily noticed by an uninitiated person and sometimes not. There are many reports on this forum where members made a change in their audio equipment and it was noticed by wives, girlfriends, children, friends, and even pets. Yes pets! People have changed from conventional to SDA's and the dog started staring at the location of phantom images.
If you have a good system to begin with, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that every change will be of the "knocks your socks off" variety or that such change, if any, will be easily discernible by inexperienced people.
It is also unreasonable to assume that someone new or relatively new to this hobby will have the hearing, spatial and tactile sensitivity and insight of a 20 year practitioner (assuming no hearing abuse).
One thing that is particularly ignored by inexperienced stereo listeners is the tactile information that comes from the loudspeakers. Sometimes a sonic difference is only in what is felt and not in what is heard. Did you check to see if you noticed any difference in tactile sensation in your body between the two cables you evaluated?
Basically, it is highly unreasonable to evaluate stereo systems on the basis of changes being perceptible by untrained listeners. What most people do not realize is that one of the basic tenants of home stereo systems is that, by design, they require some training and experience on the part of the listener to get the most out of them. You don't start driving a car or riding a bicycle without some training. You are not supposed to listen to a stereo system without some training either.
Bell Laboratories researchers F. K. Harvey and M. R. Schroeder* provide some insight in their 1961 AES Journal article:
"Critical listeners were sought in these tests because of a desire to set permanent standards. At the moment, only a small percentage of people fully appreciate high fidelity. Even less appreciate or understand stereo. However, there is a growing sophistication evidenced among users of stereo equipment. Anticipating the future, it seemed wise to avoid naive or unconcerned personnel in these tests to prevent establishing loose standards which eventually might have to be abandoned.
The listeners chosen were sophisticated in the art of sound localization either by working in this field or by education before testing. They were felt to be the equal of any serious listener who is accustomed to playing the same records many times and thus becomes familiar with the more subtle artistic and technical effects."
*[Source: Page 21 of Harvey, F. K. and Schroeder, M. R., "Subjective Evaluation of Factors Affecting Two-Channel Stereophony", Journal of The Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 9, No. 1, January 1961, pp. 19-28.]
Now, considering the fact that home stereo systems were invented at Bell Laboratories and considering what these two Bell Laboratories stereophonic researchers said about the need for listener education and "sophistication", do you think it wise, or reasonable, to evaluate home stereo systems on the basis of what can be perceived by the casual, untrained listener?
Some ignorant people like to misrepresent the requirement for stereophonic listener training and formal listening methods as "elitism". Guess what? The home stereo system was not designed for the "casual", "uninitiated" listener. The use of listener training and formal critical listening methods is not elitism, it is following the "rules" for full stereophonic playback enjoyment.
Considering all the things that have to be evaluated during a critical stereophonic presentation review: sounds, locations of sounds, quality of sounds, tactile sensations of sounds, etc., it is a mystery to me why anyone would question the need for formal listening and documentation methods.
Can stereo be enjoyed without all the training and formal listening methods specified by the inventors of home stereo systems? Of course! Absolutely! Anything requiring formal usage training, such as guns, automobiles, and machine shop equipment, can be used in a casual, uninformed manner. One can go out on a golf course and start swinging with any ol' club. However, don't ignore formal usage methods and then **** and whine because something didn't go as planned or expected.
Most of the "controversies" in audio are not the result of an abundance of snake oil salesmen, but rather, they are the result of people who simply don't know how to listen.
More on early stereophonic evaluation methods here: Link.cokewithvanilla wrote: »I think if I learned anything from this thread, or from this purchase, it has been that cables will be my LAST upgrade from now on... and when people suggest that a major problem with my system could be the cables, I can safely ignore that suggestion.
A lot of suggestions can be ignored anyway because many times the person offering the suggestion has no relevant experience.
Cables should be the last thing you upgrade because you need to select cables that are appropriate for the speakers and electronics you use. Although the advice of other consumers with the same or similar gear can be helpful, the first people you should consult is the manufacturer of the gear you have or are considering purchasing.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Dear Sir,
Your post reads like she was leaning into your car to ask you what was wrong with it (due to it being loud?) and making sure you could hear her. She wasn't leaning into it to make idle chit/chat. She was leaning in to ask a question. That question being: What's wrong with your car.
It's still not pertinent to the topic that she didn't need a pen and paper to figure it out. Whether audible or by tactile feedback she instanly new a 'difference'. She doesn't have to know why the difference is there. You didn't have to let your car warm up for 200 hours.
Dear Sir,
Spin it anyway you want, you've still got a big 'ol bag of nothing.
F1Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DK,
if it is possible to train myself to hear every dollar of difference in my cables, I am going to be honest, I would rather not. If I can hear the same thing with $2 cables as 1.5k cables, why would I want to be able to hear the difference?
I know I can hear the difference in 5k systems vs 20k systems... so I am sure i will probably be able to go up the ladder as far as my wallet will allow, and still notice differences without ever having to train myself to notice cables. After all, if 5 grand in speakers can provide me a noticeable difference of 100%, or I could spend 5 grand in cables and train myself to notice a 3-7% difference... what's better?
If cables can never provide me, the untrained listener, a better experience, I can simply avoid them and spend my money elsewhere... Now, if they ever do start to make a major difference, I am not saying that I won't start buying.
Basically, I am perfectly content to only deal in major jumps in quality (ones that can be easily noticed)... whether it be guns, cars, or speakers. If that's not in the spirit of audio... oh well.
