Amplifier Channel Management?

Serendipity

Need help from the experts here. What is the best way to manage multiple amplifier channels for a music only, whole-house audio system? Right now I am using the Onkyo as a pre to feed a 2-channel amp for the backyard and dining area speakers. They are connected via the A/B speaker outputs on the amp. But I am looking to add additional amplifiers such as the QSC ISA 800Ti for a 70.7V distributed audio system to power some outdoor speakers; to bring sound to the front yard, back yard, side yard, front porch, and driveway:

See this thread for more details:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114744

I am also looking into running multiple amplifiers for each of the rooms such as the Master Bedroom, Home Office, Kitchen, Dining Area, Hallway, etc. for background music. As a result, there will be numerous amplifier channels and different types of systems (70.7V and 8-ohm) being driven by the same source.

This will all be connected to the main system which can be found here:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102110

Is there a good PC-based application that can allow me to manage multiple amplifier channels based on time of day and zone/area? I don't want to always go back to the HP Digital Entertainment Center z560 music server to adjust the volume, but would prefer to have a tablet or Notebook PC connected to the wireless network allowing me to turn on specific channels when guests arrive, etc. and lower the volume of other areas at night after the guests leave. Something like the Crest Audio IP-based amp management or Crestron multizone control is what I am looking for.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

jinjuku

You will need to start looking at AMX, Crestron, Control4.

Serendipity

jinjuku wrote: »

You will need to start looking at AMX, Crestron, Control4.

What about Crown's IQ Network series of amplifiers or the Crest Audio NexSys & Control systems? Has anyone here used these in an application similar to what I am interested in? This will be a DIY system and I don't want to hire an installer. Plus many cruise ships, convention centers, and banquet halls already have these systems so I know there's more out there. I was on a Royal Caribbean cruise and they had all the zones of audio networked together, from the outdoor water park to the rock climbing wall and tennis court - such a system was awesome! They could call certain groups to the dining hall for dinner and the individual zones were volume matched to the ambient noise level (i.e. more people in a crowded area made the system automatically raise the volume) and everything was on a timer. At night the outdoor zones would shut off by themseleves. It was truly awesome!

unc2701

http://www.charmedquark.com/

However, if you're OK with web programming, a simple rs-232 to ethernet adapter and some creativity can get you a long way.

At this point I do about 90% of my control for my whole-house system via my iPhone's web browser.

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

However, if you're OK with web programming, a simple rs-232 to ethernet adapter and some creativity can get you a long way.

I know C++ and very basic HTML programming, but nothing fancy.

So I would like to do something like what is commercially available in this:
http://www.crestaudio.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/cat/333/item/116306/number/CFA-NCODERPC-SO/.cfm

Or, if possible, tie all the components together via IR or RS-232 cable.

EDUBAG

check into niles, for audio they have a lot of options and are less expensive than control 4 or crestron.

they have four, six areas receivers and controls

Serendipity

But can I drive multiple 70.7V loads and 8-ohm speaker loads with a Niles amplifier?

unc2701

Yes, you'll just need to get a transformer for the 70v channels

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-226

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

Yes, you'll just need to get a transformer for the 70v channels

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-226

Nice. Now I'll be able to power some 70.7V outdoor speakers such as the TIC or Atlas Sound planter speakers. If each amplifier channel is 100W, giving a total of 200W for the two channels, then with a pair of the transformers you linked I can power up to 4 pairs of TIC speakers @ 20watt taps given a 20% transformer loss (the transformer says 85% efficiency, so should be safe). This should work great for long runs of as the HTPC is a good 100ft. away from the outdoor (backyard) speakers.

At slightly less than maximum gain the output power should be:

% of Full Output = 100 (1-(Actual Power Output/70)2)

Which yields the following given the transformer efficiency of 85% output:

Loss (in dB) = 20*log(85/70) = 1.6864 which is negligible.

So yes this should work and I'll be enjoying the summer with tunes everywhere!

Serendipity

EDUBAG wrote: »

check into niles, for audio they have a lot of options and are less expensive than control 4 or crestron.

they have four, six areas receivers and controls

Looks like this will do the trick:
http://www.nilesaudio.com/product_amp.php?prodID=SI-1260&recordID=Multichannel%20Power%20Amplifiers&categoryID=System%20Integration%20Amplifiers&catcdID=4&prdcdID=FG00815

Since the amplifier has 12 channels, and any two channels may be configured in bridged mode, I am thinking about using 8 channels to power four rooms in stereo mode, and then bridge the last four channels for two 70.7V channels with a pair of transformer. At 120 watts in bridged mode I can actually run five pairs of TIC speakers @ 20 watt taps, since given the 20% transformer loss (5 speakers * 20W) * 1.2 Xfrmr loss = 120 watts. So this Niles amp gives a little more to work with for the outdoor speakers.

If I decide to wire up additional rooms, I am considering using two of the Niles SL-1260 stacked for 24 chnanels total = 16 channels of distributed audio and 4 channels of 70.7V which can be used for some ceiling speakers elsewhere such as in the bathrooms and walkway areas. The bathrooms have tiled walls (don't want to drill/cut holes in the tiling) so only 8" ceiling speakers will work here. Everything else in the house can be either wall-mounted speakers or inwalls which I have not decided yet.

Serendipity

Basically this is what I am trying to accomplish:

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/network/QSys/TSC-8.php

Build a system that is easy to use and manage from a user standpoint and can be scaled in the future. Something that would have an easy touch or click interface that can control all the amplifiers would be preferred. For the cruise ship example in Post # 3, I did some research and found that they use ambient noise sensors to adjust the volume of an amplified zone as the number of people in an area increases. This would work for the outdoor speaker setup as during the day sounds from cars/trucks/buses in the area would require a higher volume setting/compensation for the higher ambient noise level; at night the system would need to be turned down because of the lower ambient noise levels in the area. I would like the system to do this automatically.

I am planning on buying some Gigabit Ethernet switches and better wireless AP's so there can be whole-house control from anywhere within a 50' radius. I am also looking at networked amplifiers which can be controlled over Ethernet such as the Q-Sys and Crown Audio managed amplifiers which I will connect to the whole-house audio system. I would also like to monitor and adjust the gains of individual amplifiers from the backyard instead of having to go inside to turn down the volume.

It would be even nicer if the home lighting and security cameras could be tied together with this, but that's a project for another day and requires lots of planning. In the meantime, I'll be demoing lots of amplifiers from Niles, Yamaha MusicCAST, Elan, and also Crest, QSC, and crown for ease of integration and scalability. Thanks for the suggestions and I really appreciate it! This will be an awesome summer project!

Serendipity

Any ideas?

There are so many options out there... NetStreams Musica, Integra A-BUS, Elan Home Systems, Niles Multizone Audio, ZoN Audio, Yamaha MusicCAST, the list goes on and on.

I've eliminated Crestron because you need to be an installer to have access to support, to get ANY programming help, and it's tough getting the gear unless you look on eBay.

Plus one of the commercially available amp management solutions from Crown, QSC, and Crest audio seems like a good idea... just expensive. I want to make the right decision before I pull wire and do this install, otherwise upgrading may be difficult.

carlose

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-226

Serendipity

I'm looking at picking up either the Crest Audio Pro 9200 or the Crest Audio CA-18. These will be used for the "rec room area", powering a bunch of Polk RC85i which I will buy when I find a good deal on them. (For those of you who have seen my setup, I am talking about the ping pong table area - the table can be removed and turned into an area for parties, plus the dining table can be moved out of the way)

The Crest Audio Pro 9200 weighs in at around 25lbs, but puts out more wattage than the CA18 which weighs almost 80lbs. Since wattage doesn't mean a thing when it comes to sound quality, which unit would be better for a rec room/DJ/party application? I'll run these off the Zone 2/3 outputs of an AVR for background music, for parties will have a DJ mixer hooked up to them. My old Optimus SSM-1750 DJ mixer worked great for this even when I used to do parties with an Adcom GFA-535...

The following link here discusses the benefits of a "heavyweight" amp such as the Crest Audio CA-9 vs. the Pro 7200, still undecided as to which is better:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/crest-pro-7200-vs-crest-ca9-282963/

Serendipity

carlose wrote: »

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-226

Thanks, I'll definitely use those when I need to power the 70.7V outdoor speakers with a regular 4-8 ohm amplifier. I've also considered going with the QSC Installed Series (ISA) amplifiers, to reduce the number of transformers necessary.

Right now my plan is to purchase the following:

Crest Audio CA-18 for the basement main listening area
Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement inwall speakers
Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement ceiling speakers
Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement dining area
QSC ISA 300Ti for the 70.7V outdoor speakers
QSC ISA 800Ti for the 70.7V TIC planter speakers *require a lot of power*
Radio Shack MPA-250 (already have one, very happy with it)
Radio Shack MPA-250 (looking to purchase another)
Crest Audio CA-2 into a speaker selector box for bathrooms, etc.
Niles 12 Channel SL-1260 Amplifier
- Channel 1 and 2 for the Master Bedroom
- Channel 3 and 4 for the Home Office
- Channel 5 and 6 for my Bedroom
- Channel 7 and 8 for the Kitchen
- Last four channels bridged for the Living Room

This is all preliminary as the first thing to do is run all the speaker wire to the right locations and cabling for the control signals. I understand Niles uses Cat5e Ethernet cable for the touch panel controllers. And an IR repeater would be nice for taking a remote outside, someone suggested a Harmony to control the main AVR that is running this system.

Serendipity

Ok, what's the standard wiring for a touchpad + amp setup in a 2 channel multizone system? I understand Niles uses Cat5e Ethernet cable for the touch panel controllers and regular speaker wire back to the main amp / controller. But some other systems (such as A-BUS) use Cat5e and run the speaker wires elsewhere. What's the acceptable standard for a music-only, distributed audio system?

I absolutely cannot risk running a Cat5e and speaker wire from the central hub to each room, and then find out that the system requires additional wiring or the powering of the speakers is done by the in-room controllers themselves. The lack of standardization in this is confusing and difficult to figure out. Would a data + L/R speaker be ALL that is necessary? What wire should I run if I want IR control? I wish this was as easy as the security camera install I did last year - just run power + RG6 video cable to each camera and then terminate everything back at the DVR.

Anyways, I saw joeparasaki's amp setup and a rack like what he has is what I am interested in. The Sanus 7' tall, 44 rack space unit is what I am considering going with, I am planning on building this with the front of the rack facing the "user" end and the back into the utility closet / room. Since this will be located close to the subpanel I installed, I can run additional 20A circuits at any time without having to touch the main panel. Besides, a service upgrade is in order, and an upgrade to 200+ amp service is in the near future.

The fact that everything will be terminated into ONE room is going to be another plus; right now the Ethernet hubs are located in one room, the telephone wiring is in the boiler/water heater closet, circuit breaker panels are in the electrical closet, etc. I am trying to consolidate this by purchasing a whole-house distribution panel with inserts for phone, cable, Ethernet, and speaker wire. All this will be next to the audio rack and the Crest Audio amps will directly feed the basement:
1. Crest Audio CA-18 for the basement main listening area (hardwired)
2. Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement inwall speakers (hardwired)
3. Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement ceiling speakers (hardwired)
4. Crest Audio Pro 5200 for the basement dining area (hardwired)

I am now deciding on whether to put the Niles system near the main rack or closer to the bedroom speakers and run 100' of stereo patch cable to the rack. After all, XM radio is the main source in this household, so having that connected to both the basement and the first floor would require either the Niles amp to be next to the main AVR or a patch cable run to it:
- Channel 1 and 2 for the Master Bedroom (with inwall controller)
- Channel 3 and 4 for the Home Office (with inwall controller)
- Channel 5 and 6 for my Bedroom (with inwall controller)
- Channel 7 and 8 for the Kitchen (LCD multifunction controller)
- Last four channels bridged for the Living Room (no controller, remote?)

Also thinking of having the capability to control a music server through the main and Niles setups, would a Marantz digital music server work for this? It would be GREAT to have Pandora Internet Radio hardwired to play through the house without having to hook up a laptop to the system with a 3.5" audio cable (that's the way I do it now, but looking for a better option)

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. TIA!

unc2701

That niles is pretty much purely an amplifier with no volume management or control- so you'll still need something to do your switching/ volume. Almost all the systems that don't use local stepped attenuators can use cat5e for control wire. Go ahead and pull two. You need just one, but you never know.

For switching, if you want cheap, DIY, pick up an Extron matrix switcher and a ethernet to RS-232 box. You can then program a simple webpage to throw commands to the Extron switch like volume up/down, and changing source. Anything that can access the web can be your remote- iPod touches are cheaper than most touchpanel controls and do a LOT more. The webpage programming is really quite simple and you can make it quick & dirty, then go back for something custom.

Music server? Just take an old PC and put iTunes on it. Feed it into the switcher, and use the remote app on the iPod touches. Clean, pretty interface. A lot of blu-ray players have iOS apps, too. Your cable company might have one. MythTV has one. Really, the iPhone/iPod can make a killer remote in a whole-house system and even my wife can use it.

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

That niles is pretty much purely an amplifier with no volume management or control- so you'll still need something to do your switching/ volume. Almost all the systems that don't use local stepped attenuators can use cat5e for control wire. Go ahead and pull two. You need just one, but you never know.

Yes, I'm planning on pairing the Niles SL-1260 amplifier with a pair of the Niles multi-room, 6-zone receiver found here: http://www.crutchfield.com/s_190ZR6/Niles-ZR-6.html?search=niles+receiver

I don't plan on using stepped attenuators because they tend to waste amplifier power and degrade sound quality. So I'm planning on using Cat5e for the control wire and run that through the house to the whole-house audio hub. I'll pull two based on your recommendation, so thanks for pointing that out. Worst case I'll use the other Cat5e for something else, like a video distribution system, but I decided it's better to overwire vs. have to drill holes later on and make a mess (I suck at patching up drywall)

unc2701 wrote: »

For switching, if you want cheap, DIY, pick up an Extron matrix switcher and a ethernet to RS-232 box. You can then program a simple webpage to throw commands to the Extron switch like volume up/down, and changing source. Anything that can access the web can be your remote- iPod touches are cheaper than most touchpanel controls and do a LOT more. The webpage programming is really quite simple and you can make it quick & dirty, then go back for something custom.

Thanks. For switching I'm looking at the Onkyo TX-NR5008 and a pair of the Niles receivers mentioned above... along with maybe something custom-built that I could DIY similar to the Extron switch you mentioned. Speaking of, I've seen these Extron switches used in projector installations - maybe it would be even better if the whole-house video could be connected to the audio system, so each room could view a OTA Antenna / Cable / SAT box via source switching, along with the security camera system (I currently have four security cameras connected to a Networked PC DVR), and simple sources such as DVD/HD/Blu-Ray/HTPC? I'll have to look into the Extron switches for more information. Again, thanks for the tip.

unc2701 wrote: »

Music server? Just take an old PC and put iTunes on it. Feed it into the switcher, and use the remote app on the iPod touches. Clean, pretty interface. A lot of blu-ray players have iOS apps, too. Your cable company might have one. MythTV has one. Really, the iPhone/iPod can make a killer remote in a whole-house system and even my wife can use it.

Right now I am using the HP Digital Entertainment Center z560 as a music server which is connected to the basement system (See Post # 1, 2nd link). I'd like to custom-build a PC in a rackmount case for a music server, and feed it into the switcher. That way I can see the status of the music playback *without* having to power up the projector. I'd like to have the status of the artist/album/track displayed on the front of the PC, I know some Antec cases do this similar to the HP z560's front panel display.

And yes, an iPhone could work as a great remote, but I would prefer wall-mounted touch panels to control the system. I don't have any experience with the new smartphones so I've got to do some learning here.

Again, thanks for the help!!

unc2701

Seems like you're on top of it.

WTR to the niles ZR-6, look for a B&K CT600, CT602, CT610, etc, if you want to go cheaper. The sound quality is what you'd expect from B&K, but since they went out of business, they've been going pretty cheap on ebay. Has the same or better functionality as the niles. That and the rs-232/ethernet interface are the "brains" in my system.

Extron Crosspoint Matrix switches will do HDTV component switching, and the ones with a blue strip of screw terminals across the bottom do audio as well. The audio ones will do volume control, too. You can also break the audio/video link, so you can have music playing, but watch video (sometimes I do that when playing video games, for example)

I've got four Xantech 3" touch screen wall controls that I'm starting to realize that I'm never going to use. They can play nice with the niles or B&K (or there's a nearly identical xantech product that they integrate perfectly with) Everything still in the box- might have opened one out of the four to check it out. PM me if you're interested.

Link:
http://www.xantech.com/products/keypads/39g.htm

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

Seems like you're on top of it.

Thanks!!

unc2701 wrote: »

WTR to the niles ZR-6, look for a B&K CT600, CT602, CT610, etc, if you want to go cheaper. The sound quality is what you'd expect from B&K, but since they went out of business, they've been going pretty cheap on ebay. Has the same or better functionality as the niles. That and the rs-232/ethernet interface are the "brains" in my system.

I like the Niles ZR-6 simply because it's new and it comes with a warranty. Can't really find much NOS (new old stock) B&K, except for eBay. I'd rather purchase from an authorized dealer in case something goes wrong. J&R in Manhattan exchanged my Onkyo TX-SR702 the same day; you can't beat that kind of service when buying from a used seller on eBay. As far as the RS-232/Ethernet interface, I'll definitely look into one as web-based control would be great for this system (going back to controlling volume levels from a tablet/notebook PC in the backyard) as I already have access points covering the rear of the house with range well into the backyard.

unc2701 wrote: »

Extron Crosspoint Matrix switches will do HDTV component switching, and the ones with a blue strip of screw terminals across the bottom do audio as well. The audio ones will do volume control, too. You can also break the audio/video link, so you can have music playing, but watch video (sometimes I do that when playing video games, for example)

Great idea. Definitely a plus if the audio and video link could be broken occasionally; sometimes I have music playing when viewing the HTPC, or when watching something that doesn't need sound (such as Bloomberg TV) I'll have a CD on in the background. I remember reading on Curt Palme's site the great flexibility of these switches: http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTPrimer_20.shtm in the last "Example setup" all those sources are managed with ease. Volume control is good too, right now the HTPC's remote has its own volume control + the Onkyo Zone 2 and my MPA-250 all have volume controls so you can turn down individual parts of the house without affecting the others.

unc2701

Yeah, the last one looks a lot like my set-up. The main things with that are:
1)EVERYTHING needs to be component hi-def for it to work really well (or run it into an upscaler). If you have a mix of HD and composite TV's you can still make it work, but it get much more complex.
2)Blu-ray won't put out full HD over component, so you've gotta get something like the HDFury.
3)I'm still avoiding HDMI matrix switches. HDMI distribution continues to be a crapfest.

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

Yeah, the last one looks a lot like my set-up. The main things with that are:
1)EVERYTHING needs to be component hi-def for it to work really well (or run it into an upscaler). If you have a mix of HD and composite TV's you can still make it work, but it get much more complex.
2)Blu-ray won't put out full HD over component, so you've gotta get something like the HDFury.
3)I'm still avoiding HDMI matrix switches. HDMI distribution continues to be a crapfest.

I don't mind if the system gets much more complex. It would be nice if you could warm up a jacuzzi or hot tub connected to the system via iPhone, view the security cameras (I currently have four, looking to expand that to 8 or 16 cameras sometime in the near future), and control the lighting via a touch screen interface.

As far as #1 goes, all of the TV's except for an old 13" Zenith are HD. So they will work with component HD no problem. I don't plan on hooking up any non-HD sets to the sysem anyways. But definitely looking into getting an upscaler - the DVDO iScan VP30, VP50, and Duo seem like great units for a system like this. For #2, I'd rather pick up an HD Fury than deal with HDMI switching / distribution because from my experience HDMI over long runs is problematic even without switching. I agree with you for #3, as I can accomplish everything with component/RGBHV right now. I don't like deailng with the hassles of HDMI switching.

The main purpose for this will be a music distribution system though - I love having background music on while mowing the lawn, doing housework, or for parties when guests come over. I also always have music on when working on cars such as changing brakes or motor oil. Makes everything more enjoyable

Serendipity

Would like to say -

Thanks to those who have given me assistance on this project over the phone!!

Really appreciate your help.

treitz3

You do know that you can control the volume in individual zones, whether or not power is supplied to them by a zone speaker volume control module, right? You had mentioned that you would like to control the volume of the porch, for instance. Well, add a Niles SCM to that zone. I have one that I will send to you cheap, as I have no use for it.

It will save you from having to walk to a different zone to change the volume and you will not have to rely on having any remote control near the area aforementioned. Just go to it and turn it up or down. It's as simple as that.

Serendipity

treitz3 wrote: »

You do know that you can control the volume in individual zones, whether or not power is supplied to them by a zone speaker volume control module, right? You had mentioned that you would like to control the volume of the porch, for instance. Well, add a Niles SCM to that zone. I have one that I will send to you cheap, as I have no use for it.

It will save you from having to walk to a different zone to change the volume and you will not have to rely on having any remote control near the area aforementioned. Just go to it and turn it up or down. It's as simple as that.

Thanks for the offer, but I'd rather buy it myself. Which volume control is this? I looked on Niles' website and didn't see a SCM volume controller. Ideally a waterproof volume control would be preferred, but a touch screen would be even better. I just have to figure out how to get all the different control systems tied together (RS-232, Ethernet, and IR) so that the entire system, along with the lighting and security, can be controlled from the touch panels.

treitz3

This unit is not made for a smart house. It is built for sheer convenience. BTW, it's a Niles SVL-1.

Serendipity

treitz3 wrote: »

This unit is not made for a smart house. It is built for sheer convenience. BTW, it's a Niles SVL-1.

Ok. I figure since we are planning on installing a new zoned heating system and smart lighting control it would be great to have the Home Theater, Security Cameras, Distributed Audio, Lighting, Thermostats, and Alarm System all connected together.

Right now I have:
- Four security cameras connected to a Networked PC DVR
- Ethernet switches serving each room of the house w/Cat5 cable
- Outdoor Sound and music provided by a Media Server

Would like to add:
- Alarm system that can be controlled by phone
- Solar panels and smart charger to reduce energy costs
- Smart lighting that turns off when nobody is in the room
- Security cameras that can be viewable by phone
- Thermostats controlled by IP (left house and forgot to turn off heat, no problem!)

treitz3

That's a smart house. Maybe not the smartest [not in reference to you or what you are trying to accomplish] but a smart house none-the-less. I'm computer stupid, self admitted. Why you called me for advice is beyond me. I'm just a simple two channel guy...

Serendipity

Uhm, I called you regarding using pro amps for a Home environment.

You said something along the lines of Pro Amps = good for long runs, bad for nearfield listening.

I said I noticed that almost every Abercrombie store, theme park, shopping mall, etc. uses them.

treitz3

Which is true but I know nothing else on this thread [experience-wise] that could help you. Personally, I think you are doing fine with the direction you are headed. I must say, you do the research and exhaust the resources you have at your disposal and on top of all of that? You still use your ears to tell you what sounds good.

That......I have to tip my hat too, Sir. Well done.

Erik Tracy

treitz3 wrote: »

Which is true but I know nothing else on this thread [experience-wise] that could help you. Personally, I think you are doing fine with the direction you are headed. I must say, you do the research and exhaust the resources you have at your disposal and on top of all of that? You still use your ears to tell you what sounds good.

That......I have to tip my hat too, Sir. Well done.

Hey - you've got some gear setup, listening, and reporting to do, sir!

What are you doing in this post??:biggrin: