SVS PC12-NSD DSP or EPIK EMPIRE

Nacken23

Hi everyone,

Im getting a sub next month and need some help choosing one. My room is quite small at about 10ft by 14ft.
I have a pair of lsi15s and the bass is great for music.

But I need to get a sub for movies/video games I want to get the Epik Empire or SVS PC12-NSD DSP which is a cylinder sub.
I know the Epik will take up more space but I dont care about that I just want the sub with the better bass for movies:biggrin:

I can get the Epik Empire for 989euro and the SVS PC12-NSD DSP for 799euro again i dont care about the price difference I just want to know which sub would you guys think is best for movies?

Any advice please?

leroyjr1

IMO the Empire is a better performer. I would also check out the Epik Thread on AVS. There's a ton of info and comparisons.

Nacken23

leroyjr1 wrote: »

IMO the Empire is a better performer. I would also check out the Epik Thread on AVS. There's a ton of info and comparisons.

Thanks for your opinion I have been checking out threads on the epik the reviews were very good.
I like the look of the svs cylinder sub but must check out some more reviews about performance as that is what its about.
Anyone here got an opinion on the SVS cylinder sub please tell me thanks

Ron Temple

In your room, either sub is going to be a monster performer. The Empire will have more output, the SVS will have more output around tuning, but not in the midbass. The Empire really is more comparable to the Plus in terms of overall output. If you want the mostest, then get the Empire.

EndersShadow

I have emailed SVS before and gotten very good quick responses with all the info I requested. I personally have not emailed Epik, but I have heard from folks who have that they were also very responsive.

Perhaps email both companies with a layout of your room, what gear you have and what you want to do with the sub and see what they say. In my email to SVS I did ask their opinion on a couple other companies offerings and they did in no way bash those companies, nor did they really push their products either, which was rather refreshing.

Personally I am in the semi-same boat but am more than likely going with SVS's for reasons that are not really sound based (bottom firing to keep dogs/kids from the cones, top ported to keep kids from putting stuff in ports, smaller in size and lighter for moving around).

Nacken23

Thanks for your replys as I said I will use the sub for movies only I keep hearing about the midbass on the Epik what does that mean is midbass good for movies? I dont know much abouts subs so please share your knowledge

Ron Temple

Nacken23 wrote: »

Thanks for your replys as I said I will use the sub for movies only I keep hearing about the midbass on the Epik what does that mean is midbass good for movies? I dont know much abouts subs so please share your knowledge

Sealed subs generally start rolling off ~ 40hz @ 12db per octave. This means the Empire is likely down 12dbs at 20hz. It's designed to combine with natural room gain to flatten out that response get get good extention to beyond 20hz. From the charts I've seen, most are getting at least 20hz in room and many getting down to 15hz. Above 40hz the Empire still has a slightly rising response up to ~ 80hz. This gives a very hard midbass kick if you don't have any big suckouts caused by room and placement in the frequency response. Also, with dual 15" drivers, neither have to work very hard to get quite loud, the cabinet is inert and it's a very clean sounding sub.

The SVS is a ported sub which is designed to be flat to just below tuning. It's very efficent. With room gain, you'll actually get a rising response below 30hz to just below tuning where it will drop like a rock. Too much room gain and the deep stuff will overshadow the midbass which is why some, in the past, haven't found SVS the most musical of subs. Which isn't accurate. They are designed to play deep and low and are very accurate. Folks need to realize that capable ported subs (all subs generally) need some form of eq to scrub off unwanted peaks and boundary gain.

Nacken23

Ron Temple wrote: »

Sealed subs generally start rolling off ~ 40hz @ 12db per octave. This means the Empire is likely down 12dbs at 20hz. It's designed to combine with natural room gain to flatten out that response get get good extention to beyond 20hz. From the charts I've seen, most are getting at least 20hz in room and many getting down to 15hz. Above 40hz the Empire still has a slightly rising response up to ~ 80hz. This gives a very hard midbass kick if you don't have any big suckouts caused by room and placement in the frequency response. Also, with dual 15" drivers, neither have to work very hard to get quite loud, the cabinet is inert and it's a very clean sounding sub.

The SVS is a ported sub which is designed to be flat to just below tuning. It's very efficent. With room gain, you'll actually get a rising response below 30hz to just below tuning where it will drop like a rock. Too much room gain and the deep stuff will overshadow the midbass which is why some, in the past, haven't found SVS the most musical of subs. Which isn't accurate. They are designed to play deep and low and are very accurate. Folks need to realize that capable ported subs (all subs generally) need some form of eq to scrub off unwanted peaks and boundary gain.

Thanks for reply you sound like you know your stuff so if you had to pick between the two subs i mentioned which would you choose?

danz1906

You can't go wrong with either Sub in your room, I like SVS subs myself.

Ron Temple

Nacken23 wrote: »

Thanks for reply you sound like you know your stuff so if you had to pick between the two subs i mentioned which would you choose?

The Empire is more sub. I own and have owned SVS subs for years. They have improved year after year, but you can't beat physics. A 12" sub with a 400w amp, can't keep up with a dual 15" sub with 600w. It's more sub than you need, but you asked. A friend of mine has one and I've heard it several times. It's sound qaulity is comparable to my Ultra13 in sealed mode...something the PC12NSD DSP won't be.

gfong

I have heard good things about Epic subs although I own a SVS. Awesome subs for the money, they dig deep and are very well constructed. I have not got tired of mine yet!

Good luck with your choices.

ken brydson

I love my 25-31 PC+ SVS. Upgraded to the 12.3 driver. It's amazing ....Either would be awesome in your room.

Nacken23

Will the EPIK use alot more power compaired to the SVS I want the EPIK:biggrin: but I also want to keep electricity bill from going too high so would there be much different between the two or not much?

Ron Temple

Nacken23 wrote: »

Will the EPIK use alot more power compaired to the SVS I want the EPIK:biggrin: but I also want to keep electricity bill from going too high so would there be much different between the two or not much?

The Epik will draw a bit more when blowing your doors off, but it also will loaf a bit more. A dual driver setup doesn't need to work as hard to acheive the same output as the SVS. Since you're in Ireland, I assume you're buying from LSound. You might want to ping them about power draw. An amplifier only uses what it needs.

Nacken23

Ron Temple wrote: »

The Epik will draw a bit more when blowing your doors off, but it also will loaf a bit more. A dual driver setup doesn't need to work as hard to acheive the same output as the SVS. Since you're in Ireland, I assume you're buying from LSound. You might want to ping them about power draw. An amplifier only uses what it needs.

Thanks for your reply ya your right I suppose it will only take as much power as it needs depending on how loud I turn it.:biggrin:
I think I will get the EPIK so Its only 150euro extra anyway

thsmith

Ron Temple wrote: »

Sealed subs generally start rolling off ~ 40hz @ 12db per octave. This means the Empire is likely down 12dbs at 20hz. It's designed to combine with natural room gain to flatten out that response get get good extention to beyond 20hz. From the charts I've seen, most are getting at least 20hz in room and many getting down to 15hz. Above 40hz the Empire still has a slightly rising response up to ~ 80hz. This gives a very hard midbass kick if you don't have any big suckouts caused by room and placement in the frequency response. Also, with dual 15" drivers, neither have to work very hard to get quite loud, the cabinet is inert and it's a very clean sounding sub.

The SVS is a ported sub which is designed to be flat to just below tuning. It's very efficent. With room gain, you'll actually get a rising response below 30hz to just below tuning where it will drop like a rock. Too much room gain and the deep stuff will overshadow the midbass which is why some, in the past, haven't found SVS the most musical of subs. Which isn't accurate. They are designed to play deep and low and are very accurate. Folks need to realize that capable ported subs (all subs generally) need some form of eq to scrub off unwanted peaks and boundary gain.

(all subs generally) need some form of eq to scrub off unwanted peaks and boundary gain

You are spot on Ron, people just don't get this. They think plopping a sub down and let the AVR calibrate is all they need to do.

Nacken23

Anyone know is this cable the right one for hooking up the epik empire to an onkyo876 receiver and is the cable good enough quality --cheers

http://eu.lsound.no/Avdelinger/Produkter/Cables/Audio-cables/Bettercables-com/BetterCables-Silver-Serpent-Sub-RCA-subwoofer-cable-100007.aspx

EndersShadow

Nacken23 wrote: »

Anyone know is this cable the right one for hooking up the epik empire to an onkyo876 receiver and is the cable good enough quality --cheers

http://eu.lsound.no/Avdelinger/Produkter/Cables/Audio-cables/Bettercables-com/BetterCables-Silver-Serpent-Sub-RCA-subwoofer-cable-100007.aspx

That cable will work.

Nacken23

EndersShadow wrote: »

That cable will work.

Thanks for your reply

carwashguy

Have dual Empires. You can literally feel them in your bones.

Nacken23

carwashguy wrote: »

Have dual Empires. You can literally feel them in your bones.

Thats great to hear haha:biggrin: cant wait until i get mine

danz1906

carwashguy wrote: »

Have dual Empires. You can literally feel them in your bones.

Sweet!

Nacken23

Think I might change my mind again and might get the small svs cylinder sub
I have a pair of lsi15s and today I was trying the manual EQ on the onkyo and the sound on the movies was way better when I finished alot clearer sound and much more bass:biggrin:

So im wondering will the small svs cylinder sub be enough as the room is small about 10ft by 14ft or is this sub just for music?

The price difference between the subs is just an extra 150euro for the epik empire so what do you guys think I just dont want to be dissapointed if the svs turns out to be not that great for my room.

I would be very greatful for your advice

Ron Temple

SVS doesn't make a bad sub and your room is small. The cylinder will pound and have a more visceral bottom than the Empire. That bottom might need some eq to flatten out in your small room where the sealed Empire with it's natural 12db rolloff would work with your room for a flat deep response. All that said, either will destroy you with bass.

EndersShadow

Ron Temple wrote: »

All that said, either will destroy you with bass.

And that may not be a bad thing

aboroth00

Nacken23 wrote: »

Think I might change my mind again and might get the small svs cylinder sub
I have a pair of lsi15s and today I was trying the manual EQ on the onkyo and the sound on the movies was way better when I finished alot clearer sound and much more bass:biggrin:

So im wondering will the small svs cylinder sub be enough as the room is small about 10ft by 14ft or is this sub just for music?

The price difference between the subs is just an extra 150euro for the epik empire so what do you guys think I just dont want to be dissapointed if the svs turns out to be not that great for my room.

I would be very greatful for your advice

I have owned a SVS ISD/NSD sub, a PC+, and to be honest, I didn't like them all that much. Great HT subs and my room isn't much bigger 18x14x7, but when I pushed them a little harder the ports started chuffing and SQ was a little lacking for music. They have since been replaced however. I wouldn't settle for a NSD sub against the Empire. I'd go with something more along the plus line for there to be actual competition.

A ported sub will not necessarily have a 20hz bump or a sealed sub necessarily have a 20 hz roll off. It really depends on placement and the room. But I agree that the Empire is going to be much more sub and if you got the money spend it and you won't regret it. I'm not sure whether I agree that the ported cylinder would have a more visceral bottom end than the Empire when the empire would probably be flat in room lower than the cylinder.

aboroth00

I remember the plus version of that NSD sub which used a 12" plus driver which I owned, the 20-39pc+ which had three ports. I plugged one of the ports to get a 16hz tune and noticed a little port chuffing on more intense passages. The sub was EQed and coupled with another capable sub as well. Of course the sub had 3x the port volume the NSD sub did and Ilkka noticed that the sub was underported. I wonder how SVS got away with only using one port.

Ron Temple

Agree that the Empire is competitive with the Plus DSP line in terms of output in the midband and sound quality. Also agree that early SVS revs concentrated more on 20-40hz output than 40-100hz. I owned a 20-39+ as well and ran it in both 20 and 16hz tunes. Never suffered from port noise, but I did experience massive room gain from 30hz to just below tuning...this was pre eq years. The latest revs have been improved, not only the amps, but the limiters and drivers. The latest NSD line meets or exceeds the old Plus line in sq. The latest Plus line sounds very similar to the PB13 BASH which I own, though down 2-3dbs in output. SVS hasn't stood still.

The OP is looking to save some coin after I already recommended the Empire. I doubt he'll be disapppointed in a PC12NSD DSP in his small room. His problem will be to tame it.

The Empire is one hell of a deal for US customers. I've heard it more than a few times and was impressed with SQ and output in a much larger room. We're talking LSound prices here and there's a big difference.

aboroth00

Ron Temple wrote: »

Agree that the Empire is competitive with the Plus DSP line in terms of output in the midband and sound quality. Also agree that early SVS revs concentrated more on 20-40hz output than 40-100hz. I owned a 20-39+ as well and ran it in both 20 and 16hz tunes. Never suffered from port noise, but I did experience massive room gain from 30hz to just below tuning...this was pre eq years. The latest revs have been improved, not only the amps, but the limiters and drivers. The latest NSD line meets or exceeds the old Plus line in sq. The latest Plus line sounds very similar to the PB13 BASH which I own, though down 2-3dbs in output. SVS hasn't stood still.

The OP is looking to save some coin after I already recommended the Empire. I doubt he'll be disapppointed in a PC12NSD DSP in his small room. His problem will be to tame it.

The Empire is one hell of a deal for US customers. I've heard it more than a few times and was impressed with SQ and output in a much larger room. We're talking LSound prices here and there's a big difference.

I'm not sure I've heard of a NSD revision other than the one nearly 4-5 years ago. I thought they just continued to use the same driver. I had the 12.3 driver in my 20-39PC+ which is two iterations behind the current model and I'm pretty sure it won't give up too much performance wise. The difference between the 12.2 and the 12.3 wasn't much of a difference IMO. I had the ISD version as well as the NSD version of the 10" SVS which I thought bested the 12" NSD in SQ. I'm not quite ready to say the current NSD would beat an old Plus without hearing for myself but I find it hard to fathom. The only new thing I see is an improved amp with a DSP. Not sure that's enough to take the NSD above the Plus which still had its own beefy amp.

But yes SVS subs were known to rise in their FR below 60hz, but the room gain at 30hz was probably just your room making that peak. I had the sub immediately behind the LP which probably contributed to the problem, but after reading the review Ilkka did saying it was underported, I definitely agreed. Too much air going too fast out that port.

Ron Temple

aboroth00 wrote: »

I'm not sure I've heard of a NSD revision other than the one nearly 4-5 years ago. I thought they just continued to use the same driver. I had the 12.3 driver in my 20-39PC+ which is two iterations behind the current model and I'm pretty sure it won't give up too much performance wise. The difference between the 12.2 and the 12.3 wasn't much of a difference IMO. I had the ISD version as well as the NSD version of the 10" SVS which I thought bested the 12" NSD in SQ. I'm not quite ready to say the current NSD would beat an old Plus without hearing for myself but I find it hard to fathom. The only new thing I see is an improved amp with a DSP. Not sure that's enough to take the NSD above the Plus which still had its own beefy amp.

But yes SVS subs were known to rise in their FR below 60hz, but the room gain at 30hz was probably just your room making that peak. I had the sub immediately behind the LP which probably contributed to the problem, but after reading the review Ilkka did saying it was underported, I definitely agreed. Too much air going too fast out that port.

Mine was originally a 12.2 that I swapped out for a 12.3. There wasn't alot of difference, you're right. I ended up putting the 12.2 into a Box/PR design powered by a Rythmik 370w amp, which couldn't quite go as loud, but sounded better than the cylinder. The Plus has gone through 3 redoes since and now features a 12.5" driver. The NSD has gone through 3 or 4. I don't think it will go as loud as the old 12.3, but even Illka was impressed with the original NSD he was sent for his 2nd set of tests on this sub back in 07.

aboroth00

Ron Temple wrote: »

Mine was originally a 12.2 that I swapped out for a 12.3. There wasn't alot of difference, you're right. I ended up putting the 12.2 into a Box/PR design powered by a Rythmik 370w amp, which couldn't quite go as loud, but sounded better than the cylinder. The Plus has gone through 3 redoes since and now features a 12.5" driver. The NSD has gone through 3 or 4. I don't think it will go as loud as the old 12.3, but even Illka was impressed with the original NSD he was sent for his 2nd set of tests on this sub back in 07.

See the funny thing is that SVS couldn't improve too much upon the TC-Sounds drivers they had been using in the ISD and only formed the NSD driver line to indicate they're making their own drivers. Maybe I'm just behind but I honestly have not heard of new iteration since they switched from the ISD to the NSD or heard of someone emphasizing a dramatic improvement between those older models. I believe the older 12" ISD was inferior than the 12" NSD, but it certainly still wasn't up to par to the Plus. Any of the older drivers IMO were quality and fine drivers which are hard to beat even today.

Back on topic, if you want the best value, get the Epik. The NSD is a fine sub no doubt bout it, but it can be bested in the price range IMO.