Shoot out: Velo SMS-1 vs 8033 vs Fathom ARO
Ern Dog
Posts: 2,237
This is a rare moment in time where I have three sub eq's: a Velodyne SMS-1, an Anti-mode 8033C and the one built into my JL Audio Fathom called an Automatic Room Optimization or A. R. O.
This past couple days I put myself to the task of getting my sub totally dialed in and to see which of the 3 EQ's sounded the most musical to my ears.
I chose 2 songs to do this. "Rakim" from Dead can Dance SACD- this has lots of low synth bass. And "CenterPiece" by Mary Stallings- this is a jazz piece using a stand up acoustical bass that is incredible sounding. I figured that if it did both acoustical bass and synth bass right then it would work well for everything else.
I was careful to monitor the sub volume using my Radio Shack SPL meter to account for any differences in volume between the three. I also used the same cables for all- PNF IC's.
For each of the three eq's, I played both songs with the sub on only and then again integrated with my main speakers.
Fathom A.R.O.- I did this first. Calibration was a snap. Crossed the sub over at 45 hz. This sounded very musical and a tad flabby/loose to my ears, but still very good.
Anti-mode 8033C- The calibration tones are super loud, so had to turn it down. Then after calibration I needed to increase the sub volume a bit to match the same db as before. This actually sounded tighter than the A.R.O. but it lost some of its excitement that the ARO had.
Then I tried using both the 8033 and the ARO at the same time and WOW! This was the best of both worlds. This was the Most musical, lots of excitement, but tight and clean all at the same time.
The SMS-1 didn't stand a chance between the previous combination. It didn't sound as musical and didn't have the same snap as the others.
So this was a no brainer. The ARO and 8033 combo kicked **** in my rig! I may still keep the SMS-1 because it makes it so much easier to dial in the sub with the right crossover and volume and you can actually see how the phase and polarity differences affect the EQ curve on the TV.
This was fun to do, but I'm glad it's done, so now I can listen to some music.
This past couple days I put myself to the task of getting my sub totally dialed in and to see which of the 3 EQ's sounded the most musical to my ears.
I chose 2 songs to do this. "Rakim" from Dead can Dance SACD- this has lots of low synth bass. And "CenterPiece" by Mary Stallings- this is a jazz piece using a stand up acoustical bass that is incredible sounding. I figured that if it did both acoustical bass and synth bass right then it would work well for everything else.
I was careful to monitor the sub volume using my Radio Shack SPL meter to account for any differences in volume between the three. I also used the same cables for all- PNF IC's.
For each of the three eq's, I played both songs with the sub on only and then again integrated with my main speakers.
Fathom A.R.O.- I did this first. Calibration was a snap. Crossed the sub over at 45 hz. This sounded very musical and a tad flabby/loose to my ears, but still very good.
Anti-mode 8033C- The calibration tones are super loud, so had to turn it down. Then after calibration I needed to increase the sub volume a bit to match the same db as before. This actually sounded tighter than the A.R.O. but it lost some of its excitement that the ARO had.
Then I tried using both the 8033 and the ARO at the same time and WOW! This was the best of both worlds. This was the Most musical, lots of excitement, but tight and clean all at the same time.
The SMS-1 didn't stand a chance between the previous combination. It didn't sound as musical and didn't have the same snap as the others.
So this was a no brainer. The ARO and 8033 combo kicked **** in my rig! I may still keep the SMS-1 because it makes it so much easier to dial in the sub with the right crossover and volume and you can actually see how the phase and polarity differences affect the EQ curve on the TV.
This was fun to do, but I'm glad it's done, so now I can listen to some music.
Post edited by Ern Dog on
Comments
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Nice review!! Wonder if your thoughts would change for movie viewing?
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I had the same experience with my Velo SPL-1200R subs. They have a built in EQ system...not as sophisticated as the Velo DD series or your Fathom but it did a remarkable job of dialing in the subs for both HT & 2 channel. Now enter the Anti-Mode 8033C to the mix. Holy cow!! It's addition to the mix not only elevated the performance of the Velo's but it absolutely had me shaking my head at how good the whole system now sounds for both HT & 2 channel. Probably one of the most rewarding pieces I have added to my system. Highly recommended!!!!"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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Be interesting to see the MiniDSP with Advanced 2 plug in and REW vs the others.
Not surprised the SMS-1 didn't come on top. It produces a horrible amount of distortion. -
Be interesting to see the MiniDSP with Advanced 2 plug in and REW vs the others.
Not surprised the SMS-1 didn't come on top. It produces a horrible amount of distortion.
I was under the impression that the distortion and roll off issues were solved in the recent FW updates in 2.1.3.
To the OP, did you manually calibrate each unit or did you just auto-calibrated and relied on the ability of the device to auto cal? I got the best results from my own EQ when I manually adjusted each band to yield the most flat result. From my experience with the SMS-1 it often over-aggressively EQ's the curve and might not yield optimum results from the auto-cal.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
Well there is no way to manually calibrate the Fathom's ARO or the 8033, but you can do that with the sms-1. I'm not big on tweaking, so I opted to do it automatically. I agree with you that you can further dial it if you go the manual route.
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Is there any reason you didn't run both the SMS + ARO together? This seems like it would have been a more fair comparison to the 8033/ARO combo than just using the SMS alone. Unless there's some reason why you cannot run both SMS and ARO together? My only experience is with the SMS-1, so not sure of the capabilities (or limitations) of the 8033 or ARO.
Also, you should have run the SMS with a full-blown manual calibration The Auto-EQ feature is certainly easier to do - basically push a button and let it do it's thing. However, a manual EQ can dial the sub in considerably better than the Auto-EQ could dream about. As you probably know, the Auto-EQ limits itself to the preset frequencies and Q-value of the eight PEQ sliders. A manual EQ can be tweaked way more accurately for the room environment that the sub is located. Any specific frequency can be isolated, and the Q adjusted on top of that depending if you need a wider or narrower adjustment at that specific frequency. And of course all the other adjustments on the other on-screen page (LP crossover, LP slope, subsonic filter/slope, 15 deg phase increments, etc) only adds to the adjustability. But, this does take a considerable amount of time compared to the Auto-EQ...but well worth the effort, IMO.
Your use of only utilizing the Auto-EQ function of the SMS is essentially getting behind the wheel of a very capable sports car - and never getting past second gear. C'mon - open 'er up!!
My personal use of our SMS is to tailor the curve as flat as I can, with essentially no "house curve" added. All the friends I have A-B tested the sub for, every single one of them is amazed with how much the custom curve (preset 5) cleans up the bass and makes it sound considerably better than the non-EQ sub. I personally have not tested the Auto-EQ and manual-EQ differences - I'm not exactly sure if (how) that can be done via the various presets. But I'd have to wager that the manual-EQ setting would sound better than the Auto-EQ one most every time.
Remember, the above is just my two cents! I found it interesting to read your thoughts on the 8033 and ARO, enough that I'll be researching the 8033 more to see if that is something one of our systems could benefit from.Main HT:JVC DLA-RS45135" Elite Screens fixed frame, 1.1 gainMarantz SR7007 (operating as pre-pro)Emotiva XPA-1 x3 (L+C+R), UPA-7 (surrounds)Oppo BDP-103D/BDP-83Toshiba HD-XA2Panamax M5410 Pro x3Polk LSiM707s, LSiC706, 80 F/X-LS, 65-RTSeaton Sound/MCCA MFW "Turbo" + custom Dayton SA1000 sub amp (orig. AV123 MFW-15)Velodyne SMS-1I/Cs: MP 12ga/4-cond (fronts); MP 12ga (surrounds), MP HDMI (all sources), some BJC sprinkled thruoutHarmony EliteSalamander Triple 40 C/B* still need to sell older but mint gear!! -
Yes, I did try the sms and ARO combo and the 8033 combo sounded better to my ears. Perhaps with more time investment, I could have gotten the SMS more dialed in and sounding better, but I'm not big on spending a lot of time on tweaking. YMMV
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Is there any reason you didn't run both the SMS + ARO together? This seems like it would have been a more fair comparison to the 8033/ARO combo than just using the SMS alone. Unless there's some reason why you cannot run both SMS and ARO together? My only experience is with the SMS-1, so not sure of the capabilities (or limitations) of the 8033 or ARO.
Also, you should have run the SMS with a full-blown manual calibration The Auto-EQ feature is certainly easier to do - basically push a button and let it do it's thing. However, a manual EQ can dial the sub in considerably better than the Auto-EQ could dream about. As you probably know, the Auto-EQ limits itself to the preset frequencies and Q-value of the eight PEQ sliders. A manual EQ can be tweaked way more accurately for the room environment that the sub is located. Any specific frequency can be isolated, and the Q adjusted on top of that depending if you need a wider or narrower adjustment at that specific frequency. And of course all the other adjustments on the other on-screen page (LP crossover, LP slope, subsonic filter/slope, 15 deg phase increments, etc) only adds to the adjustability. But, this does take a considerable amount of time compared to the Auto-EQ...but well worth the effort, IMO.
Your use of only utilizing the Auto-EQ function of the SMS is essentially getting behind the wheel of a very capable sports car - and never getting past second gear. C'mon - open 'er up!!
My personal use of our SMS is to tailor the curve as flat as I can, with essentially no "house curve" added. All the friends I have A-B tested the sub for, every single one of them is amazed with how much the custom curve (preset 5) cleans up the bass and makes it sound considerably better than the non-EQ sub. I personally have not tested the Auto-EQ and manual-EQ differences - I'm not exactly sure if (how) that can be done via the various presets. But I'd have to wager that the manual-EQ setting would sound better than the Auto-EQ one most every time.
Remember, the above is just my two cents! I found it interesting to read your thoughts on the 8033 and ARO, enough that I'll be researching the 8033 more to see if that is something one of our systems could benefit from.
Almost definitely, the manual EQ on the SMS-1 in my experience will yield better results as the SMS tends to aggressively over EQ. However, the resolution, 1/3 octave, at times is not enough to see sharp peaks or sharp nulls in room response and you'll be unable to catch those on the OSD.2Ch Tube Audio Convert -
pearsall001 wrote: »I had the same experience with my Velo SPL-1200R subs. They have a built in EQ system...not as sophisticated as the Velo DD series or your Fathom but it did a remarkable job of dialing in the subs for both HT & 2 channel. Now enter the Anti-Mode 8033C to the mix. Holy cow!! It's addition to the mix not only elevated the performance of the Velo's but it absolutely had me shaking my head at how good the whole system now sounds for both HT & 2 channel. Probably one of the most rewarding pieces I have added to my system. Highly recommended!!!!
I would like an external unit with LFE IN and MULTI sub outputs out. This way you can tune more then one sub in different locations. The unit should have up to 4 sub outputs with the ability to select which output you wanna calibrate so you can tune each sub by itself then tune all subs running at the same time.
Ok who makes this?Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I would like an external unit with LFE IN and MULTI sub outputs out. This way you can tune more then one sub in different locations. The unit should have up to 4 sub outputs with the ability to select which output you wanna calibrate so you can tune each sub by itself then tune all subs running at the same time.
Ok who makes this?
You're in pro-audio right? -
Fair enough! The SMS's manual EQ no doubt takes its share of time...one could easily spend hours tweaking like crazy, setting up different curves for movies, music, etc.Yes, I did try the sms and ARO combo and the 8033 combo sounded better to my ears. Perhaps with more time investment, I could have gotten the SMS more dialed in and sounding better, but I'm not big on spending a lot of time on tweaking. YMMVMain HT:JVC DLA-RS45135" Elite Screens fixed frame, 1.1 gainMarantz SR7007 (operating as pre-pro)Emotiva XPA-1 x3 (L+C+R), UPA-7 (surrounds)Oppo BDP-103D/BDP-83Toshiba HD-XA2Panamax M5410 Pro x3Polk LSiM707s, LSiC706, 80 F/X-LS, 65-RTSeaton Sound/MCCA MFW "Turbo" + custom Dayton SA1000 sub amp (orig. AV123 MFW-15)Velodyne SMS-1I/Cs: MP 12ga/4-cond (fronts); MP 12ga (surrounds), MP HDMI (all sources), some BJC sprinkled thruoutHarmony EliteSalamander Triple 40 C/B* still need to sell older but mint gear!!
