RTI A9s on the way, should a new receiver be ordered too?

SRTer

dnoyeB wrote: »

You missed the 2 channel info from that website.

Running 2 channels at 0.1% distortion is 143.6 watts. At 1.0% distortion is 168.7 watts

Thus,

With total 2 channels you can get 287W into your main speakers.(0.1%THD)
With total 5 channels you can get 422W into your main speakers(bi-amp).(0.1%THD)
With total 7 channels you can get 120W into your main speakers(bi-amp) .(0.1%THD)

Looks like bi-amp does have a positive effect if you dont go above a total of 5 channels.

Humbly I submit some point to this conversation which might bring a little understanding.

I direct everyone to POST 10, by DnoyeB.

He displayed theses specs concerning the test from Home Theater.

With total 2 channels you can get 287W into your main speakers.(0.1%THD)
With total 5 channels you can get 422W into your main speakers(bi-amp) .(0.1%THD)
With total 7 channels you can get 120W into your main speakers(bi-amp) .(0.1%THD)

Assuming that these specs are from the HT Labs Measurements for the Onkyo TX-NR807 AVR that was tested, I would submit that these figures are NOT CORRECTLY STATED. With all due respect. :redface:

First, nothing on the bench testing page speaks about (bi-amp) in the power rating figures.

Secondly, I will submit the exact copied and pasted 5 channel power results because the NUMBERS IN THE POST IS WRONG. Therefore, the receiver makes 527.5 watts total power to 5 channels. This is not the 422 watt figure stated in the post which is highlighted for your pleasure.

This is the rating from Home Theater.com ( http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures ).

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

I think clearing those two problems will help everyone began to achieve the same understanding.

There aren?t any Bi-Amp power figures shown in any of the test. One can only assume that if you Bi-Amp the front channels on a 5 channel setup, the receiver would send the same power that it was tested in the 7 channel mode. The 7 channel power figures are substantially less than the than the 5 channel power figures.

Hope having the facts right will help while trying to reach a understanding.

Also,

Sound + Vision website has tested many Onkyo receivers and have noted that they can often go into protection during test. This could explain the very low 7 channel wattage performance. Sound and Vision has not tested this receiver but has tested many Onkyo with most of them going into protection during the test.

Here is a statement written at the end of the test of on Onkyo.
Driving multiple channels for more than a second or two (or more than a half-second or so when five or more channels were involved) triggered the TX-NR1008's protection mode, limiting clean output to a bit less than 50 watts all around. I note as always that such multichannel, in-phase signals essentially never occur "in nature" from music or movie soundtracks - only artificial test signals.(http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr1008-av-receiver )


Sorry for the long post and being off the topic folks.:redface:

dnoyeB

With total 5 channels you can get 422W into your main speakers(bi-amp) .(0.1%THD)

When I say "main speakers" I am talking about the front two.

That's 2 channels into 2 speakers when your running only 2 channels.
That's 4 channels into 2 speakers when you are running 5 channels.
That's 4 channels into 2 speakers when you are running 7 channels.


As for bi-amping you are correct that its not stated in the testing. Its only an assumption on my part that if you can get X watts per channel out of the receiver in 5 or 7 channel mode (as tested), you can put 4 of those channels into 2 speakers (bi-amp).

Does this clear up what I am trying to highlight?

dnoyeB

SRTer wrote: »

Here is a statement written at the end of the test of on Onkyo.
Driving multiple channels for more than a second or two (or more than a half-second or so when five or more channels were involved) triggered the TX-NR1008's protection mode, limiting clean output to a bit less than 50 watts all around. I note as always that such multichannel, in-phase signals essentially never occur "in nature" from music or movie soundtracks - only artificial test signals.(http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr1008-av-receiver )


Sorry for the long post and being off the topic folks.:redface:

I looked at that data. Its not clear to me if the unit was not capable of more than 45W/ch in 5 channel mode, or that they kept pushing the unit into protection, and its the protection mode that is limited to 45w/ch?

When in protection, does this amp shut off all output?

Geoff4rfc

tonyb wrote: »

thats the whole point, the numbers do speak, it's how it's being interpreted thats the problem.

Very profound statement, that's exactly what's going on here.

jbooker82 wrote: »

i wasnt slamming onkyo. I have one and am really happey with it. I was just stating that the power really falls off when running a 7.1 setup or a 5.1 setup with the fronts biamped.

No slam received, very matter of fact post, most of us from what I can tell are in total agreement.

srter wrote: »

hope having the facts right will help while trying to reach a understanding.

Sorry for the long post and being off the topic folks.:redface:

Valiant effort, sadly, it might not be enough.

dnoyeb wrote: »

when i say "main speakers" i am talking about the front two.

That's 2 channels into 2 speakers when your running only 2 channels.
That's 4 channels into 2 speakers when you are running 5 channels.
That's 4 channels into 2 speakers when you are running 7 channels.


As for bi-amping you are correct that its not stated in the testing. Its only an assumption on my part that if you can get x watts per channel out of the receiver in 5 or 7 channel mode (as tested), you can put 4 of those channels into 2 speakers (bi-amp).

Does this clear up what i am trying to highlight?

I think, and I say this respectfully, that what you've cleared up here, is that you in fact are assuming.

Most everyone already knows that it's the "main" speakers when mentioning a 2 channel configuration, especially since the receiver only sends a signal to the "main" speakers anyway when running a 2 channel set up.

I believe the "assumption" comes from you believing that connecting more than one channel to a single speaker will deliver more power/current. Now, listen closely, IF, you were doing this from two different power sources, for example, a SECOND amp, then, you would in fact be sending "double" power to your speaker. BUT, when you do it from the same source, for example, your own receiver, the power is now being spread out over the same source and so you get less per channel.

Think of it like this; you take a big spoon full of peanut butter and plop it onto your bread, eat it like that and you get more p.b. per bite, but if you spread it to the edges of the bread, you get less p.b. per bite.

I like you donkey b, no matter what I call you, I feel sorry for your frustration here, I just hope things come together for you and you end up having the coolest H.T. ever

SRTer

dnoyeB wrote: »

I looked at that data. Its not clear to me if the unit was not capable of more than 45W/ch in 5 channel mode, or that they kept pushing the unit into protection, and its the protection mode that is limited to 45w/ch?

When in protection, does this amp shut off all output?

This is only during testing because of the signal being generated is not what you normal play for a long time at hi power levels.

When in protection, the amp output is limited (not shut off).

krauley

dnoyeB wrote: »

Did you buy them used? Or at a store? I'm still trying to come up on a pair.

Soooooo............... :eek: where did he say he got the A9s?

dnoyeB

SRTer wrote: »

...When in protection, the amp output is limited (not shut off).

Then unfortunately we don't know the AVRs actual capacity in 5 channel because they only gave us the protection mode data.

To equal 2 channel power output to the mains, with 5 channels going, the AVR would have to produce at least 80W/ch. If it can produce more than 80W/ch in 5 channel mode, then bi-amping might have some value.

cstmar01

dnoyeB wrote: »

Then unfortunately we don't know the AVRs actual capacity in 5 channel because they only gave us the protection mode data.

To equal 2 channel power output to the mains, with 5 channels going, the AVR would have to produce at least 80W/ch. If it can produce more than 80W/ch in 5 channel mode, then bi-amping might have some value.

the one thing you are missing though is normally when an amp goes into protect mode its protecting itself from being over driven. IE its preventing from being clipped and doing damage.

The AVR has reach its "peak" when it goes into protection mode because your trying to run it more than it can do.

IE if its going into protection at 30 watts all channels driven its not going to magically produce 80 watts per channel all channels driven with the protection take off, if it would, then well your would run the risk of killing your system. This is why when you push AVR's too hard they will shut off and "protect" themselves as well as your speakers. If you do clip that is the problem and when you destroy stuff.

This is why it is advised to run an external amp if you are having problems with clipping. More power is better.

The thing about bi amping with an AVR is you are sharing the power supply. If there is only 1 PS and its rated at 500 watts, your only going to get 500 watts. Its not going to magically produce 600 watts with everything being driven because it can't support it.

The other big thing is current as pointed out before. Current is really want drives and moves your speakers, Watts well get imflated often too much and people relate more the watts per channel than current as its something that we are used to hearing.

dnoyeB

No, I haven't missed any of those points. Its not clear if the AVR will go into protection at 51W/ch, or 75W/ch or 100/ch... Maximum power before entering protection was not tested.

I've already commented on the PSU limit.

poyvoy

Wow, I was worried about not getting enough information or being written off as another forum newbie.

I appreciate all the information, conflicting as it may be.

What I have gathered by the Hometheatermag link and the discussion is that Yes, Bi-amp can improve your performance under the conditions of the proper equipment. I do not have the proper equipment, therefore I should not worry about it.

Upgrading to a new receiver and 3 channel amp will be in the future budget plans.


Also being said, the speakers came in today and the pictures do not do them the justice they deserve. The RTI A9s and CSI A6 are massive speakers, but beautiful to look at. Hoping to get them set up tomorrow, so I can actually listen to them.

Time to scour the forum for recommended amp/crossover set up

Sherardp

Some Outlaw Audio M2200/200's should be up to the task to drive those fronts. I would recommend a 3 channel at least to get the entire front end up a notch. The rears will be fine powered by the AVR.

poyvoy

Sherardp wrote: »

Some Outlaw Audio M2200/200's should be up to the task to drive those fronts. I would recommend a 3 channel at least to get the entire front end up a notch. The rears will be fine powered by the AVR.

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't see much of a purpose using another external amp for rears when right now all I am doing is a 3.1 set up and your rears are primarily for atmosphere with the mains delivering the main punch of the movie/music.

mtdewcowboy

Ok time for the math test on ohms law
Get out your meter and check the volts being outputed by
Each channel driven & do the math
This horse is dead

dnoyeB

mtdewcowboy wrote: »

Ok time for the math test on ohms law
Get out your meter and check the volts being outputed by
Each channel driven & do the math
This horse is dead

LOL, well I am actually an EE/CE. When my new AVR arrives I plan to take it into the lab and see what I can find out. My field is not music power, so we may not have the exact equipment, but should have something workable.

poyvoy

krauley wrote: »

Soooooo............... :eek: where did he say he got the A9s?

Retailer connection discount, but Brand new in Box

BtrSound

I had a denon 1911 and the3n impulse bought the A9's for $400 each at NE and ended up having to upgrade my receiver with an external amplifier. Without it they sounded pretty bright. With external amplification the mid range and the lower notes really came alive. They sound a world better with amplification.