RTI A9s on the way, should a new receiver be ordered too?

poyvoy

Should be getting in my new RTI A9s in any day now. Yes, its overkill for my room, but the price I got on them was amazing and totally worth it for the long haul. Replacing 2 Klipsch Synergy F2s.

Currently running a Pioneer 1020 AVR. Not enough power and no pre-outs, shame on me. Definitely looking to upgrade to a new receiver in the future, but wondering if anyone has any thoughts on doing a Bi-Amp to supply sufficient power to these speakers to prevent clipping. Hoping to hold out for the next generation of receivers with Air-Play.

These will be my first Polks and looking forward to them.

Thanks

tonyb

Don't waste your time in the bi-amp thing. Best advice is to keep the volume at moderate levels until you can add an amp, along with a receiver with preouts.

bklynNupe

tonyb wrote: »

Don't waste your time in the bi-amp thing. Best advice is to keep the volume at moderate levels until you can add an amp, along with a receiver with preouts.

+1
A9's will sound much different even at lower volume with an external amp.

dnoyeB

Did you buy them used? Or at a store? I'm still trying to come up on a pair.

SRTer

poyvoy wrote: »

Should be getting in my new RTI A9s in any day now. Yes, its overkill for my room, but the price I got on them was amazing and totally worth it for the long haul. Replacing 2 Klipsch Synergy F2s.

Currently running a Pioneer 1020 AVR. Not enough power and no pre-outs, shame on me. Definitely looking to upgrade to a new receiver in the future, but wondering if anyone has any thoughts on doing a Bi-Amp to supply sufficient power to these speakers to prevent clipping. Hoping to hold out for the next generation of receivers with Air-Play.

These will be my first Polks and looking forward to them.

Thanks

I have RTi A9's too, and love them. True, your reciever has got to go. I got rid of my old reciever for more a more powerful Pio Elite with Preout just in case I want an amp.

I'm pleased thus for, but I'm power hungry. I will get an amp, but not yet. The setup sounds great. Dive in, the water is fine.

You can look a my thread about it if you thinking about a Pio Elite SC-35 or SC-37 because they have the same power sections.

I did Bi-Amp the speaker of the recieve for a month and re-hooked them with no Bi-Amp where it is currently. I want to say there a diffence, but i don't think so. It was mostlikely wasting power by sending more than what needed to the tweeter and 5.25 mid-ranges while each channel make less power overall.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117648

Kamzu

I'll have to agree with the amp suggestion. I too have A9s, after adding in couple Emotiva XPA-1s, they dig way deeper (no subwoofer is necessary for music).

jbooker82

SRTer wrote: »

I did Bi-Amp the speaker of the recieve for a month and re-hooked them with no Bi-Amp where it is currently. I want to say there a diffence, but i don't think so. It was mostlikely wasting power by sending more than what needed to the tweeter and 5.25 mid-ranges while each channel make less power overall.

Yea but when you power your speakers with an extra 2 channles. (Rear Left, and Rear Right surrounds) your now powering a typical 5.1 system but the load on the AVR is a 7.1 system since you use two sets of terminals to power the front two towers.

Most AVR's are rated with only 2 channels driven from 20hz to 20k hz. When your powering a 5.1 system the power for the channels is reduced. When you use the rear surrounds you drasticaly cut the power down. Especially in the lower budget AVR's

SRTer

jbooker82 wrote: »

Yea but when you power your speakers with an extra 2 channles. (Rear Left, and Rear Right surrounds) your now powering a typical 5.1 system but the load on the AVR is a 7.1 system since you use two sets of terminals to power the front two towers.

Most AVR's are rated with only 2 channels driven from 20hz to 20k hz. When your powering a 5.1 system the power for the channels is reduced. When you use the rear surrounds you drasticaly cut the power down. Especially in the lower budget AVR's

I think we said the same thing different ways. As it is cutting the power across more channels, less power to all.

I will say the Pio Elite SC-35 is being put to work over here at my house. This is a sweet AVR.

jbooker82

Yea. Take the Onkyo TX-NR807 for example. It is advertised as 135 wpc with 2 channles driven.

Running 5 channels at 0.1% distortion is 105.5 watts. At 1.0% distortion is 122.0 watts

When you turn on those other 2 rear surounds to biamp your front it drops way down because it is now operating at 7 channels.

Running 7 channels at 0.1% distortion is 29.9 watts. At 1.0% distortion is 33.0 watts.

Here is the info.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

So if I had to chose between biamping / running at 30-33 watts, vs. regular wiring running at 105-122 watts, I am going to chose the regular wiring. The whole purpose of biamping is to produce a better sound by using one amplifer to power the bass, and the other to power the highs. So your offseting this improvemnt by running your entire system at 33wpc. Biamping might sound a hair better at lower volumes but when you try to turn it up the sound quality is going to fall off fast due to the underpowering of the speakers.

dnoyeB

jbooker82 wrote: »

Yea. Take the Onkyo TX-NR807 for example. It is advertised as 135 wpc with 2 channles driven...

Here is the info.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr807-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

You missed the 2 channel info from that website.

Running 2 channels at 0.1% distortion is 143.6 watts. At 1.0% distortion is 168.7 watts

Thus,

With total 2 channels you can get 287W into your main speakers.(0.1%THD)
With total 5 channels you can get 422W into your main speakers(bi-amp).(0.1%THD)
With total 7 channels you can get 120W into your main speakers(bi-amp).(0.1%THD)

Looks like bi-amp does have a positive effect if you dont go above a total of 5 channels.

F1nut

That's not how it works.

dnoyeB

Your arguing against the test results form hometheater.com?

SRTer

dnoyeB wrote: »

Your arguing against the test results form hometheater.com?

This is getting good!!

Lets not forget that the Onkyo often goes in to protect during test, lowering out put. This should explain the 33 wpc and the such like on many Onkyo test. They would normally put out more power but often less than 100 wpc. You can find this in small writing in many articles.

Bi-amp should produce less output to each channel driven, the power supply is only going to put out so much power no matter how many channels you use on a AVR.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

SRTer

F1nut wrote: »

That's not how it works.

I think F1Nut is correct,

Pionneer Elite SC-37 made
135 wpc at 0.1 Distortion in 5 channel mode at 8 ohms
125 wpc at 0.1 distortion in 7 channel mode at 8 ohms

Therefore, running a setup like mine which is a 5 channel (all 8 ohm, full range towers except the center channel) would become a 7 channel by Bi-amping. Thus causing a loss of 10 wpc to each channel driven. This a modest loss on the Pio SC-37 but still a loss in clean power. Many A-B class AVR's lose much more while pushing 7 channels than the SC-37 which is D-class.

I have the SC-35 which is rated the same power will less extras but same power sections and did Bi-amp an and I can tell any noticeable difference.

One thing I can't afford is one watt less of power or I would not be able to sleep at night till I bought and amp.

SRTer

I meant that I couldn't tell a noticeable difference. Sorry, typing from iPhone4 which sometime changes your words.

I repeat, no noticeable difference other than knowing there less power to each channel because of testing.

tonyb

dnoyeB wrote: »

Your arguing against the test results form hometheater.com?

No, he's arguing against your logic....or lack there of.

cstmar01

dnoyeB wrote: »

You missed the 2 channel info from that website.

Running 2 channels at 0.1% distortion is 143.6 watts. At 1.0% distortion is 168.7 watts

Thus,

With total 2 channels you can get 287W into your main speakers.(0.1%THD)
With total 5 channels you can get 422W into your main speakers(bi-amp).(0.1%THD)
With total 7 channels you can get 120W into your main speakers(bi-amp).(0.1%THD)

Looks like bi-amp does have a positive effect if you dont go above a total of 5 channels.

yeah, no, wrong.

Don't worry about doing any sort of bi amping off an AVR. If you want to bi amp correctly you would need an external cross over with 2 different power amps etc. If you want a good AVR to run A9's Pio SC series is nice such as the SC 35 and 37.

Otherwise normally you can run the front 3 channels with an external amp and then run the rest off the AVR if you decide on purchasing an amp at some point down the road.

dnoyeB

SRTer wrote: »

This is getting good!!

Lets not forget that the Onkyo often goes in to protect during test, lowering out put. This should explain the 33 wpc and the such like on many Onkyo test. They would normally put out more power but often less than 100 wpc. You can find this in small writing in many articles.

Bi-amp should produce less output to each channel driven, the power supply is only going to put out so much power no matter how many channels you use on a AVR.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

At least you realize there is something in this data that must be explained away if bi-amping is not supposed to work on the tested AVR (Onkyo TX-NR807). Everyone else simply ignored the data...

Cmiller

This is taken on the SC-27..Im sure its the samething for the SC-35-37

Ultimate AV Magazine

With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads (blue curve), the amp reaches 0.1% distortion at 119.7 watts and 1% distortion at 153.9 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads (green curve), the amp reaches 0.1% distortion at 137.8 watts and 1% distortion at 149.0 watts. It's odd that the power output at 0.1% distortion with five channels driven is less than with seven channels driven, but that is indeed the case with this AVR. The test was performed several times to verify this result.

The manufacturer's stated distortion of 0.09 % was reached at 135.3 watts with seven channels driven into 8-ohm loads. This corresponds almost exactly with the specified power output.
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/pioneer_elite_sc-05_av_receiver/index7.html

F1nut

dnoyeB wrote: »

Your arguing against the test results form hometheater.com?

I'm not, but it would seem that you are....

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

Furthermore, if the AVR goes in to protect during testing that means the power supply is tapped out, hence 29.9 wpc with 7 channels driven.

dnoyeB

Cmiller wrote: »

...http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/pioneer_elite_sc-05_av_receiver/index7.html

These AVRs have ICE amps which are not your average AVR amp. They are expected to perform.

2 ch driven, 168W/ch (0.1%THD) Total 336W
5 ch driven, 120W/ch (0.1%THD) Total 600W
7 ch driven, 138W/ch (0.1%THD) Total 966W

It is odd that per channel power went up. Even if you consider some of that data wrong, the bottom line is the total power is going up with more channels. Looks like to me that amp is not designed to deliver the full capacity of its power supply through just two channels.

Once again, its not my data...

dnoyeB

F1nut wrote: »

I'm not, but it would seem that you are....



Furthermore, if the AVR goes in to protect during testing that means the power supply is tapped out, hence 29.9 wpc with 7 channels driven.

Why did you ignore the 2 channel data?

F1nut

Why did you ignore the 2 channel data?

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion is 143.6 watts.
1% distortion is 168.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

Feel better?

Geoff4rfc

F1nut wrote: »

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion is 143.6 watts.
1% distortion is 168.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

Feel better?

You know by now you guys are wasting your time debating power ratings with donkey b? The last debate I got into, I found out his Onk 270 is magic, apparently, it puts out "double" power when he bi-amps from it. Even when I pasted 8ohm loads vs channels driven about the 270 from the official site to support my efforts, I was still wrong.

dnoyeB

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

You know by now you guys are wasting your time debating power ratings with donkey b? The last debate I got into, I found out his Onk 270 is magic, apparently, it puts out "double" power when he bi-amps from it. Even when I pasted 8ohm loads vs channels driven about the 270 from the official site to support my efforts, I was still wrong.

No need to just make stuff up. We can disagree without the tall tales and name calling. I have never disagreed with any stats posted from any tester or OEM.

Geoff4rfc

dnoyeB wrote: »

No need to just make stuff up. We can disagree without the tall tales and name calling. I have never disagreed with any stats posted from any tester or OEM.

Tall tales???Lol, here's some quotes from you about "double" power:

---

My Onkyo is also rated at 100W/ch. The speakers sound much better when I bi-amp them (double power). that is, I can get them loud enough to make me feel good on a Friday night.

(Your quote, didn't make it up.)

I am talking about power. Whether that gets you increased "quality" or not is a different argument. I am only stating that you can increase the power delivered to a given speaker with an Onkyo HT-RC270 by bi-amping with the AVR alone.


You on the other hand are implying this
1. AVRs are all designed to deliver full power into the L&R channels.
2. Any additional channels activated withdraw power from the L&R channels.
3. Any additional channels deactivated allow that power to return to the L&R channels.

Please say yes so we can agree to disagree.

(Another quote by you, I didn't make this one up either)

Here's what Onkyo says about your specific AVR:
100 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz,
0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

120 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)

So you see, even the manufacturer says more power with less channels driven, less power with more channels driven.......whether you're bi-amping with the rear channels or not.

Now you can contact Onkyo and tell them that you agree to disagree.
(This was my quote in red.)

1 channel = 120W total
2 channels = 200W total (not 2 x 120W)

This is actually more total power out with more channels. But I think I can rationalize your position now.

If the maximum for a channel is 120W, and as soon as you add a 2nd channel you can't hit that maximum, you must therefore be hitting the PSU maximum. Thus, the apparent maximum of the PSU is 200W. If that's true, adding new channels won't get you any more power. So I see the position you are trying to put forward. I guess the question is, "is the PSU limit really 200W?" And is this 1 channel 120W limit really the same as the rating of 2 channels (what do they mean by "dynamic" power).

(This was your reply but I still don't think you get it)

But you know, best of luck to you.

SRTer

I knew this was about to get a little wild.

dnoyeB

That was the beginning of the discussion where I made a big generalization. I clarified that "double power" statement later in that thread and I never said it again. Its not double power. Let it pass...

That is my statement and I am trying to figure things out scientifically and not just keep pushing the same position. In this thread more tests came up that show more total power with more channels.

Everyone knows our opinions. Let the numbers speak.

tonyb

Thats the whole point, the numbers do speak, it's how it's being interpreted thats the problem. Please read up on power supplys and watt rateings in a AVR. I say this not to bash you,but to inform so you have a better understanding.
For example, some AVR's will have a power supply rated at 400 watts total. Yet they may claim 100 watts into 7 channels. Doesn't add up.
Also read up on current,as that is more important than watts but manufacturers are hung up on big numbers so they tend to inflate an Avr's capability.

jbooker82

I wasnt slamming onkyo. I have one and am really happey with it. I was just stating that the power really falls off when running a 7.1 setup or a 5.1 setup with the fronts biamped.

Is www.hometheater.com a crock? I havent herd any negative or positave for them. I know with some of my atv mags some of there reviews cannont really be trusted because they are just a long 3 page advertisement. Is this the case with www.hometheater.com?

dnoyeB

tonyb, what do you have to say about the numbers cited in this thread from two different sources?