Yamaha YP-211 Turntable lack of bass?

Joe08867

Fongolio, I was going to correct it until I saw your post. So don't feel bad the Nuns in my head were doing the same thing...:)

Tour2ma

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Well I know the wiring is ok, checked that with an ohm meter.

Not sure but seemed to help I taped a penny to the headshell, it allows me to balance the arm with the weight in the middle and not the end.

I brought this used and now I can kick myself for all the troubles. A "Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge" was recommended to me, not sure what to think about that.

The headshell is removable.

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

But I'm confused if I added a small weight on the arm so the weight is now in the middle is this wrong?

I feel your frustration, but it'll be fine...

First, ix-nay on the enny-pay... If you've already tending towards too much mass, adding more is not the way to go. As for the counterbalance weight, so long as it does zero out the arm+cartridege weight it doesn't matter where it ends up.

Second, FWIW, your Empire spec's better than the Ort 2M Red and the Ort is higher mass and the same compliance...

That said, now that I've looked at the data I've gotta say your Empire is not that high of a compliance choice at 20x10**-6 cm/Dyne. By contrast my old Shure V15 IV, a truly high compliance model, is a 32.

The nominal compliance range for all modern cartridges is approximately 10 to 40... The low end of range (mid-teens and down) tends to be moving coil territory, e.g., my Sumiko Blue point Special @ 12. From the upper teens on up, the rest of the range tends to be moving magnet designs.

Anyway, I'm going to proceed as if it is not a mismatch issue...

At the risk of insulting I have to ask:
- when you did your VOM checks were they checks of the complete run from the each of the headshell's four leads to the associated RCA's pin or collar?
- when you zero out the arm+cartridge by adjusting the counterweight is the tracking force set to zero?

Assuming the answers are Yes and Yes.. and so I only managed to add insult to your frustration... I'll offer up a couple flyers.

There was a thread not too long ago where a member's new Ort Green's bass was bad. Turned out in his case that the removable stylus would not seat properly in the cartridge. He exchanged it where he bought it.

Or there may be an issue with your Pre's phono section. Could be either corosion in the selector switch (I get the feeling that the Phono position has not seen a great deal of use) or a problem with one of its phono section's tubes (probably 2).

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

The cartridge is light, I understand why now this effects the arm in use. The weight of cartridge must be the weight of the arm.

I really do not know what you were trying to say in the last sentence...

As for the first... at 5.3 gm the cartridge's weight is light-ish, but with a heavy arm a light cartridge makes sense.

disneyjoe7

Bruce,


I removed the penny then re-did the zero the arm balance. I did the all wires when the headshell was installed to all wires, each worked ok and worked to the shell and pin of the RCA cables. Red wire went to the Red RCA pin, the White wire went to the White RCA pin. Green wire goes the the Red shell ground, the Blue wire goes the White RCA shell. Nothing grounded to them self, nothing grounded to the ground wire.

I can skip the Pre amp phono inputs, since I have a phono amp also somewhere, I just need to find it.

What is that "High Compliance" what does that mean?

disneyjoe7

Using a extender phono amp so I could skip over the phono input / tubes it sounds the same when using a tape input.

Fongolio

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

What is that "High Compliance" what does that mean?

I tried to explain compliance in one of my earlier posts. Compliance is how much "springiness" the cantilever has. The higher the compliance the more the cantilever can move up,down, left, right.

As for whether or not your cartridge is too high compliance for your arm, I still feel it is. Manufacturers measure and post compliance several different ways which makes things confusing. Further to that compliance changes with frequency so it also depends on at what frequency the compliance is measured. Looking at how your cart was measured, I still say it's too high compliance for that arm. I pulled this quote from an audio website and it is accurate.

* A phono cartridge whose compliance is rated at 12 x l0ˉ6 or below, is considered low compliance. A cartridge whose compliance is rated between 13 x l0ˉ6 and 25 x l0ˉ6 is considered high to very high. Note: Another way of expressing compliance is um/mN. Here a rating of 5 to 10 is considered very low, 10 to 20 is moderate and above 35 is very high. *

Here are two measurements for your cart:

Dynamic Compliance: 20 x 10-6cm/dyne.
Static Compliance: 28.5 x 10-6cm/dyne.

They both measure using the first method which puts it in the high to very range.
I know this is confusing as all get out but I think if you mate that table with the right cartridge it will sing, or the right table to that cart.

I think Tour2ma was thinking of the 2nd method for measuring compliance which is what Shure used for many years and yes, the V15's were all very high compliance cartridges.

disneyjoe7

So wouldn't a high compliance cartridge be good for everyone?

Still Confused.


Open CD case.

Push the open button on the CD player.

Install the CD.

Click Play.

Enjoy.

Still sounds better vs. the Turntable.

Joe08867

Are you quitting already?

Just take a break and look at it again when you are relaxed. It is sensitive stuff your dealing with here. I can almost guarantee that is will sound as good if not better than a CD when you are through.

disneyjoe7

Quitting, No not really.

Tour2ma

Sigh...

Fongolio wrote: »

I think Tour2ma was thinking of the 2nd method for measuring compliance which is what Shure used for many years and yes, the V15's were all very high compliance cartridges.

Nope, I was not thinking of an imaginary "second method"... and no, Shure did not use an imaginary method... and no, not all V15 were "high-compliance" by today's standards.

What I was thinking is what I wrote, i.e., 20 is not high... and it's not. In an overall range of 10-40, how can a value below the midpoint of the range (25) be considered high? That's why I say 20 is not high. In the reduced MM compliance range of 15-40, it is even less high...

And a few of Shure's V15 Series' compliance measured in the low to mid-20's, not really high compliance. The original V15 was high-compliance for its day (the mid-60's) at around 25, but today it's only middling. As for my truly high-compliance Type IV, you have to remember that it had the Dynamic Stabilizer brush. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms for some other day and some other thread...

As for the "second method of measuring"? I find it very interesting/ telling that neither you nor the source you cite realize that the two commonly used units of compliance measurement are not owed to different methods. They are in fact equivalent expressions of the same measurement; they are interchangable. Do the conversion and you will see for yourself that:
20 x 10**-6 cm/Dyne = 20 uM/mN (micrometers/milliNewton)
The only conversion factor you may not know offhand is:
1x10**5 Dyne = 1 Newton (N)

Given the above fact, how can Galen Carol and you simultaneously claim that "13 x l0ˉ6 and 25 x l0ˉ6 (cm/Dyne) is considered high to very high" and "10 to 20 (uM/mN) is moderate..."? A great deal of overlap there so I guess you're saying that values between 13 and 20 are "highly moderate"...

Anyway...

Steve,
Here is where I laid out the straight scoop on compliance...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1556895&postcount=18

Now as to your additional troubleshooting...

Pulling out the old, external phono pre was a great move and very telling. It eliminates your CJ as a possible problem.

And, if I read you right, the VOM checks have now eliminated the headshell/ arm wiring from further consideration and the zero balance is good.

So-o-o-o.... I'm thinking bad cartridge. Since EMPIRE MAGNETIC INDUSTRIES has been out of the phono cartridge business for "a while" (10 years? maybe 20?) I'm guessing the Empire came to you with the used TT? Assuming it did and has the original stylus, it may be worn out (and damaging your LP's).

If it has a new, aftermarket replacement stylus, well, lets just say the aftermarket quality is highly variable. And it could just be the cartridge is old and shot... maybe damaged due to being dropped or demagnetized in storage.

Do you have a microscope or jewelers loop or strong magnifying glass to examine the stylus? You're Mr Photography... do you have a suitable, extreme close up lens? You may be able to digitally zoom (and maybe even post) a very high resolution shot.

Do you have/ can you borrow a cartridge from someone local to try?

But one other thing to check... Reading back, you commented at one point...

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Looking at the tone arm while sitting on a record, I can see it forward looking and not level. Downloaded manual but not sure how to adjust tone arm height.

Forget the arm angle... what is important is the angle of the stylus and (in the case of your Empire and a large number of other cartridges) the cantilever's tip.

Here's your cartridge:


Note how the angle of the cantilever's tip (holding the diamond stylus) flattens a bit from the sharper downward angle... it's the angle of this bit, the very tip that matters. And, at rest on an LP the angle of the tip relative to the surface of the LP should be near zero, i.e., this flattened tip should be roughly parallel to the LP's surface.

Something like this drawing from theanalogdept.com...



Take a look... It's easiest to see with the stylus resting in a record's lead-in groove with the LP not turning. Post a pic if you can...

disneyjoe7

If the Cartridge is bad, and yes I bought it used. What would you replace it with?

Joe08867

I am a big fan of Grado myself. This is what I use:



You can find it here: http://www.needledoctor.com/Brand-Stores/Grado-Cartridge-Prestige-Series

Shure is also good. And the price is a lot easier to handle. Like this one:



Found here: http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Shure-Phono-Cartridges?gclid=CLOi0tTH-acCFQMlfAodrilnqg

Fongolio

Tour2ma wrote: »

Sigh...

Nope, I was not thinking of an imaginary "second method"... and no, Shure did not use an imaginary method... and no, not all V15 were "high-compliance" by today's standards.

What I was thinking is what I wrote, i.e., 20 is not high... and it's not. In an overall range of 10-40, how can a value below the midpoint of the range (25) be considered high? That's why I say 20 is not high. In the reduced MM compliance range of 15-40, it is even less high...

And a few of Shure's V15 Series' compliance measured in the low to mid-20's, not really high compliance. The original V15 was high-compliance for its day (the mid-60's) at around 25, but today it's only middling. As for my truly high-compliance Type IV, you have to remember that it had the Dynamic Stabilizer brush. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms for some other day and some other thread...

As for the "second method of measuring"? I find it very interesting/ telling that neither you nor the source you cite realize that the two commonly used units of compliance measurement are not owed to different methods. They are in fact equivalent expressions of the same measurement; they are interchangable. Do the conversion and you will see for yourself that:
20 x 10**-6 cm/Dyne = 20 uM/mN (micrometers/milliNewton)
The only conversion factor you may not know offhand is:
1x10**5 Dyne = 1 Newton (N)

Given the above fact, how can Galen Carol and you simultaneously claim that "13 x l0ˉ6 and 25 x l0ˉ6 (cm/Dyne) is considered high to very high" and "10 to 20 (uM/mN) is moderate..."? A great deal of overlap there so I guess you're saying that values between 13 and 20 are "highly moderate"...

Anyway...

Steve,
Here is where I laid out the straight scoop on compliance...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1556895&postcount=18

Now as to your additional troubleshooting...

Pulling out the old, external phono pre was a great move and very telling. It eliminates your CJ as a possible problem.

And, if I read you right, the VOM checks have now eliminated the headshell/ arm wiring from further consideration and the zero balance is good.

So-o-o-o.... I'm thinking bad cartridge. Since EMPIRE MAGNETIC INDUSTRIES has been out of the phono cartridge business for "a while" (10 years? maybe 20?) I'm guessing the Empire came to you with the used TT? Assuming it did and has the original stylus, it may be worn out (and damaging your LP's).

If it has a new, aftermarket replacement stylus, well, lets just say the aftermarket quality is highly variable. And it could just be the cartridge is old and shot... maybe damaged due to being dropped or demagnetized in storage.

Do you have a microscope or jewelers loop or strong magnifying glass to examine the stylus? You're Mr Photography... do you have a suitable, extreme close up lens? You may be able to digitally zoom (and maybe even post) a very high resolution shot.

Do you have/ can you borrow a cartridge from someone local to try?

But one other thing to check... Reading back, you commented at one point...

Forget the arm angle... what is important is the angle of the stylus and (in the case of your Empire and a large number of other cartridges) the cantilever's tip.

Here's your cartridge:


Note how the angle of the cantilever's tip (holding the diamond stylus) flattens a bit from the sharper downward angle... it's the angle of this bit, the very tip that matters. And, at rest on an LP the angle of the tip relative to the surface of the LP should be near zero, i.e., this flattened tip should be roughly parallel to the LP's surface.

Something like this drawing from theanalogdept.com...



Take a look... It's easiest to see with the stylus resting in a record's lead-in groove with the LP not turning. Post a pic if you can...

Ok, I bow to your obviously higher intelligence, patronizing and condescending attitude, total rudeness, and superior level of "know it all" ness. Or am I just "imagining" things again? We are simply trying to help. None of my information is "imaginary". And yes, believe it or not there are several very real ways of measuring compliance, but because of your obvious overwhelming need to be "right" I will leave this thread.

Good luck Joe. I hope you can get it so you find the vinyl love.

Kelvin

disneyjoe7

Joe, seen your recommendation for the Grado Gold, seen some bad reviews about shielding. Seems people like yourself are happy, some not. Not sure what to think about that.

Any thoughts on...

Ortofon 2M Blue?

http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Blue-Phono-Cartridge?sc=9&category=-109

Joe08867

I have seen the same reviews about shielding and have never had a problem. I also have my table on stabilizers and it has an acrylic platter so maybe that is why.

As far as the Ortofon, I have heard some of there really high end carts and loved them but I have never heard the 2M Blue. I would guess (Having heard other Ortofon) that is a nice cart but I don't know anyone that has used that particular cart or one similar.

I have a buddy with the Ortofon Vivo and it does sound quite good but he is more of a classical music lover which is what I think that cart is more known for.

Joe08867

I was alos going to suggest the Goldring GL 2100: http://www.needledoctor.com/Goldring-GL-2100-Phono-Cartridge_3?sc=2&category=373



It is a great upgrade for most tables.

disneyjoe7

Looking at the cartridge really good tonight and seen somethings which don't look right. The cartridge case is cracked, the stylus is broken in the cartridge. So yes need a new cartridge / stylus. Now thinking about a Dynaventor 10x5 but see this as a MC cartridge.

Now I'm confused again. What was the empire 245 output specs? What is the correct phone type for a Conrad Johnson PV-5 I found it can have a 10mv input and overloaded at 500mv sounds like a MC input no?

Tour2ma

Post 47 by Marge80 reported.... Spam

Dawgfish

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Looking at the cartridge really good tonight and seen somethings which don't look right. The cartridge case is cracked, the stylus is broken in the cartridge. So yes need a new cartridge / stylus. Now thinking about a Dynaventor 10x5 but see this as a MC cartridge.

Now I'm confused again. What was the empire 245 output specs? What is the correct phone type for a Conrad Johnson PV-5 I found it can have a 10mv input and overloaded at 500mv sounds like a MC input no?

The Dynavector 10X5 is a high output moving coil, so it should be fine with your Conrad Johnson PV-5. When I picked up Inspired Sports' CV-5 for him, he told me to listen to it, so I slipped the CV-5 into the system. At the time I was using a Denon DL-160 cartridge which is also a high output moving coil with very similiar specs. to the Dynavector and it worked just fine. Lots of people on here run the 10X5 and love it. I am currently running a Soundsmith modified Dynavector 20X4 and it is pure vinyl bliss. The 10X5 should be a very good match for your Yamaha's tonearm and the CV-5 preamp.

disneyjoe7

Thanks Dawg, I see there seemed to be a following of Dynavector people around here, so felt it was the direction I should go.

Tour2ma

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Looking at the cartridge really good tonight and seen somethings which don't look right. The cartridge case is cracked, the stylus is broken in the cartridge. So yes need a new cartridge / stylus. Now thinking about a Dynaventor 10x5 but see this as a MC cartridge.

Now I'm confused again. What was the empire 245 output specs? What is the correct phone type for a Conrad Johnson PV-5 I found it can have a 10mv input and overloaded at 500mv sounds like a MC input no?

TA-Daaaaaa...

Steve,

Your (broken) Emp's output was 4 mV per VE's database, but pretty safe bet you weren't getting anything near that...

Your CJ's phono section's 10 mV input spec is related to a dB output to the CJ's pre-amp section. Up or down from the 10 mV input figure will obviously increase/ decrease the dB output. Same rule as for amps, i.e., double the output voltage means a +3 dB increase; half the voltage means -3 dB.

The 500 mV figure is cautionary... what it is really saying is "do not plug your CDP (output > 1 V) into the phono inputs".

Normal MC outputs are generally less than 0.50 mV... less than 0.2 isn't uncommon. For these you'd need a step-up transformer. As Dawg posted the Dyna 10x5 is a high output MC putting out @ 2.5 mV, high enough to avoid the need for a step-up. Even so it will be down 6 dB from your CJ's reference level... probably would not be unacceptably low, just lower.

All that said, I can't guide you a helluva lot in selecting a new cartridge... at least not based upon listening. I haven't bought a new one since Shure was closing out V15 V's maybe five-years ago... and I've never opened it. Also have about an 8-year-old, NOS Sumiko BP Special around here somewhere. I laid in a supply of OEM Shure stylii when they backed out of the upper end of their business, so I'm still good for a while.

You can find most any data you need here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php
Top of the page also has a link to a tone arm data base.

There's been a wide range of choices mentioned so far. IMO the best choice for you right now depends on what your TT plans are.

If you bought the used Yamaha to get (back) into vinyl on the cheap and think you'll stay with it a while, then a $200+ cartridge makes little sense to me. There's a pretty fair selection at NeedleDoctor (on-line retailer I've used) for under $100, e.g., Ort's, a Shure, Grados, AT's. And based upon glances at a couples' specs, it appears there are some decent choices to research further.

On the other hand, if you feel you'll quickly move on to another TT, then going more upscale with your cartridge purchase now gives you a good cartridge for your next level.