Yamaha YP-211 Turntable lack of bass?

disneyjoe7

Title says it all, I checked all wiring and found nothing wrong in that department. I'm confused.

Polkersince85

Make sure the arm is dead level. Too much forward angle on the cart could cause this. Set the arm level with a record on the table.

Double check your preamp settings, also.
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Dawgfish

Joe,

I would suggest checking the tracking force for the cartridge you are using, check to make sure the TT is level, and check the VTA for starters. Some cartridges like my Dynovector 20X are very dependant on VTA. I would also make sure that the compliance on the cartridge you are using is right for the tonearm on the Yammy. What kind of cartridge and headshell are you running? I good record clamp and mat can also increase bass.

disneyjoe7

VTA what is that?


Headshell not sure either?

Cartridge Empire 245E

Fongolio

The Empire cartridge you are using is a quite high compiance cartridge and the Yammy's arm is medium to heavy weight. The recommended cartridge weight for the Yamaha is between 5 and 10 grams. The Empire weighs in at 5.3 grams which puts it just in the realm of recommended weight. I think the combination is not working so well. That cartridge would be much better suited to a very light arm.

VTA stands for vertical tracking angle which is simply the tilt of the cartridge parallel to the grooves of the record. What Polkersince85 said is true. If you have an adjustment for it, drop the arm down a little bit. You may get more bass. Front of cartridge down equals more treble, back of cartridge down equals more bass. Do it only little bits at a time and try to find the happy medium.

Compliance is how springy the cantilever on the arm is. High compliance (more springy) is better for lighter arms. Low compliance (stiffer) works better on heavier arms. Even though the tracking for may be the same, a heavier arm has more mass and has more energy moving up and down thus a stiffer cantilever works better. A lighter arm takes less energy to move so a higher compliance cartridge works better.

Good Luck

Conradicles

Get a CD Player...:eek::cool:

disneyjoe7

Looking at the tone arm while sitting on a record, I can see it forward looking and not level. Downloaded manual but not sure how to adjust tone arm height.

disneyjoe7

Made some adjustment to cartridge in headshell, moving it forward some. I did this so I think the stylus is in the correct position. I don't have an "Overhang setting mark" but felt maybe the correct position is so the stylus is on the front edge. The headshell which I not sure of doesn't seem stock, but is black with silver lines going front to back of shell. The head itself has a slop back froward edge which to set the stylus to. After the tone arm sits back slightly and bass is much better I may had.

Fongolio

Sometimes there is a set screw or sometimes two around the tubular base that goes into the plinth. They are usually really tiny allen keys. Loosen them off and move the tube up or down as desired.

agfrost

I took a quick peek at a manual and it doesn't appear your table has adjustable VTA. Someone holler at me if I'm wrong.

Jay

Fongolio

One other method for getting the VTA correct may be to use a spacer between the headshell and the cartridge which will in effect raise the arm slightly. Only problem is that it adds weight. A lightweight plastic spacer may work.

Also, if you've moved the cartridge you need to be sure to get your "null" points correct. Those are the two points on the record where the cartridge should track dead straight. Moving it forward or back changes where the null points are. There are three main protractors that are used. Baerwald, Loefgren, and Stevenson. The idea is to move the cartridge ahead or back in order to align with the fixed points on the protractor while keeping the cartridge perfectly between the lines. It takes practice but you can almost always, with patience get it bang on. This minimizes distortion. I prefer Stevenson because it uses the widest "null" points but you usually have to back the cartridge in the headshell fairly substantially. Baerwald might be your best bet in order to keep it forward.

Here's a link explaining it:
http://www.vinylengine.com/protractor-user-guide.shtml

Here are some free protractors that you can print. Only thing is you need to adjust the printer to get the scale they give you on them correctly. Otherwise they are useless.
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

disneyjoe7

Great info and I'm getting my learn curve going over here.


Thanks all.

Steve

disneyjoe7

Not sure what I did to it, it's the first time I tried to tweak it some since I brought it used and stated "Setup".... But it's sounding pretty good if I don't say so myself, even better then those CD's

madmax

I've heard a few LP's that seem to have almost no bass, maybe you played one of those?

Dawgfish

Fongolio wrote: »

One other method for getting the VTA correct may be to use a spacer between the headshell and the cartridge which will in effect raise the arm slightly. Only problem is that it adds weight. A lightweight plastic spacer may work.

Also, if you've moved the cartridge you need to be sure to get your "null" points correct. Those are the two points on the record where the cartridge should track dead straight. Moving it forward or back changes where the null points are. There are three main protractors that are used. Baerwald, Loefgren, and Stevenson. The idea is to move the cartridge ahead or back in order to align with the fixed points on the protractor while keeping the cartridge perfectly between the lines. It takes practice but you can almost always, with patience get it bang on. This minimizes distortion. I prefer Stevenson because it uses the widest "null" points but you usually have to back the cartridge in the headshell fairly substantially. Baerwald might be your best bet in order to keep it forward.

Here's a link explaining it:
http://www.vinylengine.com/protractor-user-guide.shtml

Here are some free protractors that you can print. Only thing is you need to adjust the printer to get the scale they give you on them correctly. Otherwise they are useless.
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

Great advice Fongolio. Another method I have tried to adjust the VTA is using different thickness mats to raise or lower the VTA. The Herbies Way Excellent Mat II has several different thickness's you can order. My Technics SL-1200 normally uses a 3.7mm thick mat. I ended up getting a 4.7mm mat to get the VTA right when I swithed to my Dynovector 20X cartridege. I had already set the VTA adjustment as low as it would go and the cart was still not level with most records. The 4.7mm thick mat cured this and substantially improved the bass. Disneyjoe7, if you haven't tried a Herbies mat, I would whole heartedly recommend getting one.

Fongolio

+1 to the Herbie's mat. I use one on both my tables.

danger boy

correct adjustment really can decrease the bass if it's off by half a gram or so... half a gram you wouldn't think would make much of a difference.. but set the cartridge according to what the manufacter recommends for weight.

Tour2ma

Fongolio wrote: »

Compliance is how springy the cantilever on the arm is. High compliance (more springy) is better for lighter arms. Low compliance (stiffer) works better on heavier arms. Even though the tracking for may be the same, a heavier arm has more mass and has more energy moving up and down thus a stiffer cantilever works better. A lighter arm takes less energy to move so a higher compliance cartridge works better.

You mean the cantilever on the cartridge...

It's not the arm that you want to move... and not just not up and down, but also not side-to-side...
Man... that was alot of nots...

The goal is to match the compliance of the cartridge's cantilever with the inertia (resistance to movement) of the arm+cartridge's total effective mass (light/ heavy). "Effective" is a key word because not all arm weight is equal, i.e., the first gram of arm weight near the pivot does not have the impact of the last gram near the head. And because it is at the free end of the arm, the cartridge can play a significant role in the total mass.

The goal is important because ideally you want neither:
- the cartridge's cantilever to be able to move the arm; nor
- extraneous arm movement to move the cantilever.

Arm movement happens in the "cartridge not compliant enough for the arm / arm too light for the cartridge" case. Any initial arm movement will reduce the cantilever's movement of its magnet (or coil) reducing the electrical output. Subsequently, as the arm returns to a neutral position, it may either add to or subtract from the electrical signal generated by the next bit (not to be confused with byte... :biggrin: ) of sweet, analog, music information.

One extreme example of the additive possibility is the combination's harmonic resonance, a frequency which can build upon itself. One extreme example of the arm seeking its neutral position is the "pop" or "snap" heard when the stylus first slides into the groove.

Obviously the opposite case, the "cartridge too compliant / arm too heavy " case is when the arm moves the cantilever. Why is this important? Only three things that move the arm have anything to do with reproducing music... and one of these is bad.
First is the spiralling groove... good.
Second is the anti-skate (actually an applied counter force)... good.
Third is acoustic feedback (soundwaves)... bad.
Everything else that can move the arm is bad.

The example that is easiest to visualize in the up/ down case is the dreaded record warp. Here you want the stylus tip to move as one with the cartridge body and the arm. If too compliant, the cantilver moves producing a distinctive, low "whomp" in both channels revolution after revolution after...

The easiest side to side case to visualize is the thankfully ever rarer, off-center spindle hole. An off-center hole effectively "ellipticizes" the groove producing a side-to-side oscillation of the head assembly. Even barely noticable movement can produce an audible "whoosh-whoosh" often more pronounced in one channel than the other.

All that said there is no ideal match, so you find the best balance you can. Given a choice I'd go with the under compliant/ too light of an arm case. I can always add mass.

Hell, I taped a penny to the end of my Silvertone record player when I was only six...

disneyjoe7

I managed to go null out the cartridge, I did it with "Stevenson". I also redo the tone arm balance weight, and I'm using 1.75g weight for the stylus. The TT still sounds bad, non-life / sounds dead. Not sure what the problem is....


Cheap?

Bad?

What's Bad?

Dawgfish

I'm with Fongolia in that I'm thinking the cart is not a good match for your tonearm. Before making a cartridge change however, I would double check all adjustments, check to make sure the table is level, check headshell wires and make sure everything is in good order and connected properly, etc. I would also check to see that the settings on your preamp or phono preamp are right for the cartridge you are runnng. After you check all of this and everything checks out and it still sounds bad, I would consider replacing the cartridge. I medium compliance cartridge would be a better match for your arm. Call the Needle Doctor, LP Gear, KAB USA, and they are all very helpful and will give great advice on a good cartridge match for your table within your specified budget.

disneyjoe7

I not sure if I would put $ into it, vs. buying a new one. All connections are good, I've checked them before, the pre amp has no settings I know of CJ PV-5.

Fongolio

Tour2ma wrote: »

You mean the cantilever on the cartridge...

It's not the arm that you want to move... and not just not up and down, but also not side-to-side...
Man... that was alot of nots...

The goal is to match the compliance of the cartridge's cantilever with the inertia (resistance to movement) of the arm+cartridge's total effective mass (light/ heavy). "Effective" is a key word because not all arm weight is equal, i.e., the first gram of arm weight near the pivot does not have the impact of the last gram near the head. And because it is at the free end of the arm, the cartridge can play a significant role in the total mass.

The goal is important because ideally you want neither:
- the cartridge's cantilever to be able to move the arm; nor
- extraneous arm movement to move the cantilever.

Arm movement happens in the "cartridge not compliant enough for the arm / arm too light for the cartridge" case. Any initial arm movement will reduce the cantilever's movement of its magnet (or coil) reducing the electrical output. Subsequently, as the arm returns to a neutral position, it may either add to or subtract from the electrical signal generated by the next bit (not to be confused with byte... :biggrin: ) of sweet, analog, music information.

One extreme example of the additive possibility is the combination's harmonic resonance, a frequency which can build upon itself. One extreme example of the arm seeking its neutral position is the "pop" or "snap" heard when the stylus first slides into the groove.

Obviously the opposite case, the "cartridge too compliant / arm too heavy " case is when the arm moves the cantilever. Why is this important? Only three things that move the arm have anything to do with reproducing music... and one of these is bad.
First is the spiralling groove... good.
Second is the anti-skate (actually an applied counter force)... good.
Third is acoustic feedback (soundwaves)... bad.
Everything else that can move the arm is bad.

The example that is easiest to visualize in the up/ down case is the dreaded record warp. Here you want the stylus tip to move as one with the cartridge body and the arm. If too compliant, the cantilver moves producing a distinctive, low "whomp" in both channels revolution after revolution after...

The easiest side to side case to visualize is the thankfully ever rarer, off-center spindle hole. An off-center hole effectively "ellipticizes" the groove producing a side-to-side oscillation of the head assembly. Even barely noticable movement can produce an audible "whoosh-whoosh" often more pronounced in one channel than the other.

All that said there is no ideal match, so you find the best balance you can. Given a choice I'd go with the under compliant/ too light of an arm case. I can always add mass.

Hell, I taped a penny to the end of my Silvertone record player when I was only six...

Thanks. That is what I was trying to say but my fingers were typing faster than my brain. And yes, the cantilever is of course on the cartridge.

Kelvin

Tour2ma

^Not a problem I can identify with... not that I'm that smart, I just can't type worth a shite...

Steve,

I'm not thinking cart/ arm mismatch here...

So long as the cantilever is not contacting the LP's surface, a too high compliance cartridge should reproduce the signal OK-ish and get better as you "dial it in". Problem would be as I wrote above... over sensitivity to outside vibes, e.g., footfalls.

Reading back through the thread:
- to start the sound was bad (post 1);
- then better (post 8) after moving cart forward;
- then pretty good (post 13); and
- then "still bad" (post 19)?????

I'm confused....
Did it sound better at one point?

If yes, then you're looking for a connection issue which could be in the arm wiring... the IC's... the phono pre section of your CJ...
Is the headshell removable?

We'll handle "if no" later...

disneyjoe7

Well I know the wiring is ok, checked that with an ohm meter. I think I made some improvement in the sound, but still not in love with it. The one album which didn't have bass was Heart, a Boston "Don't look Back" just sounds like ****.

Not sure but seemed to help I taped a penny to the headshell, it allows me to balance the arm with the weight in the middle and not the end.

I brought this used and now I can kick myself for all the troubles. A "Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge" was recommended to me, not sure what to think about that.

The headshell is removable.

disneyjoe7

So I'm not happy with the sound / not musical / Dead / Lifeless...

The cartridge is light, I understand why now this effects the arm in use. The weight of cartridge must be the weight of the arm. But I'm confused if I added a small weight on the arm so the weight is now in the middle is this wrong?

I understand this is a work around on my end, but I'm hurting something. Maybe in the future I can get a nice TT and get rid of my Fisher Price TT.

Joe08867

You table should be fine for average listening. Are there better ones? Yes but with the right adjustment yours should sound quite good.

Do you have an Anti-Skate weight on the back of the arm? How far forward or backward is it. Considering the weight of your cartridge it should probably be quite forward.

I have also heard but not tried that if the weight you have is not enough you can remove the weight flip it and reinstall it to gain a gram or two.

nooshinjohn

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117696

might want to give this a try... He does not want to ship it, but I am reasonably close by and am willing to help out if you guys can put a deal together.

disneyjoe7

I serious looking at a VPI Scottmaster, or a Rega P5.

Fongolio

Either table is a serious step up from your yammy but the Scoutmaster (not Scottmaster) is the one I'd go with. Also consider the VPI Classic for the same money, a very highly rated table. However, what Joe above said, your Yamaha should perform much better with it set up correctly.

disneyjoe7

I found out that the Scottmaster vs. the Scoutmaster is cheaper



Opps again!

Fongolio

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I found out that the Scottmaster vs. the Scoutmaster is cheaper



Opps again!

My apology. It was my grade school grammar teacher raising her angry head and rapping me on the knuckles with a ruler again that compelled me to correct it. It won't happen ag.......oh crap, we all know that's bs so I won't say it.