TV size and Resolution

exalted512

Direct TV thread kind of sparked my interest.

So if you're looking for a cheap bedroom TV, or maybe a guest room, at what TV size is there a fairly noticeable difference between 720P and 1080P?

I'm guessing your typical bedroom TV is about 10' away from your head (if youre head and tv are on opposite sides of the room. So wouldn't you need a fairly large tv to notice the difference between 1080P and 720P...and thats assuming your watching 1080P anyway, as mentioned in the dtv thread).

This article says on a 50" TV, 1080P starts becoming apparent at 9.8'.
http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter

So if I'm 14' away, even a 60" TV at 1080P's advantage is barely starting to get apparent?

Thoughts?
-Cody

cstmar01

most people can't tell a difference between a 720 and 1080 even at 4 feet more or less farther away.

Also if your doing a lot of cable broadcasts anyways and if its not in High def you also are not really going to notice any difference.

and no at the distance your saying you will probably not see a difference between the two sets.

On projectors or large images yes it does make somewhat of a difference once again depending on how far you are from it. However 720Ps can look very very good and most people would think its 1080P.

I have a 720P projector on a 100" screen. Honestly it looks great. Most people don't know its 720P unless I tell them.

billbillw

Resolution of the screen is only one part of the equation. The other part is the electronics within that control the scaling. Good 720p TVs scale the 1080i/p image down to 720p with very little image degradation. Cheaper TVs with poor scaling can leave you with an image that is soft and/or has artifacts.

Is there really that much price difference these days?

Polk user

I paid $685 for a 50 inch 1080P plasma 4 months ago. The prices are so low that I really see no reason to buy an HDTV that is not really HD.

To me 720P is not HD and if you ever decide to hook up a Bluray player and it's only 720P don't bother and just buy a regular DVD player.

Conradicles

Polk user wrote: »

I paid $685 for a 50 inch 1080P plasma 4 months ago. The prices are so low that I really see no reason to buy an HDTV that is not really HD.

To me 720P is not HD and if you ever decide to hook up a Bluray player and it's only 720P don't bother and just buy a regular DVD player.

This is not true at all. Everything you just said is useless information...:eek:

VR3

Conradicles wrote: »

This is not true at all. Everything you just said is useless information...:eek:

Im sorry this made me laugh.

Moving on now...

TroyD

Nothing wrong with 720, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me.

BDT

cheddar

720p is definitely HD. Some HD broadcast channels only broadcast in 720p. So you're watching in the native resolution of the screen if you have a 720p set. The other HD option for broadcast is 1080i, not 1080p. Although things like blu-ray are 1080p.

Like someone said, it's all about the scaler. Cheap scalers are really noticeable even at a distance. Other things that will affect image quality far more than resolution if you get a cheap implementation are black level and color. Do some research for a top rated picture, not just specs like resolution. (Although, I would agree that with prices where they are, trying to save a buck on resolution may not be worth the effort.)

steveinaz

For a 46" or less sized TV 720p will be fine, even if you're "picky." And yes, 720p is high definition.

Jstas

steveinaz wrote: »

For a 46" or less sized TV 720p will be fine, even if you're "picky." And yes, 720p is high definition.

My thoughts Ed Zachary.

For resolution, screen size matters. 1080p has a much higher density of pixels than 720p but 720 has a high enough density that anything 42" or smaller is indistinguishable from 720p to 1080p to the human eye. You may get more colors at 1080p but even with 720p you're getting millions of colors so the tens of millions that 1080p would provide is just icing on the cake.

However, 46" is even pushing it for 720p IMO. You start getting artifacting at that screen size because of pixel density and at times it can be very apparent. So if you are going above 42", find a 1080p model. Under 42", 720p is just fine. I have a 720p Panny plasma in my living room that is 42" and the picture is absolutely spectacular.

BTW, HD screens are nothing new. Current 1080p HD TV technology is where computers were at with the first 17" VGA capable screens back in 1996. It's the TV broadcasts and media formats that were the limitation. The hardware has been more than capable for 15+ years now. Even back then, it was about pixel density and screen size mattered. Hell, you can hook up an old Viewsonic 15" ColorScan monitor that was new in 1997 to an HD box now and you won't be using 1/3rd of it's resolution capabilities with a 720p feed. The CRT screens also likely have the best picture since that technology is refined out the wazoo. The only reason people don't use them now is because they are big and heavy. But companies like BARCO have been building high resolution, CRT based projectors for a decade or more at this point.

Actually, before anyone decides to get ballsy and challenge me just to start a petty fight, let me clarify that VGA doesn't support the resolution of a 720p feed by default. XGA is actually the standard that defines how the resolution is handled. However, XGA was introduced in 1990 by IBM and is a subset of standardized capabilities built into the SuperVGA standard.

Willow

Conradicles wrote: »

This is not true at all. Everything you just said is useless information...:eek:

Actually it's not all useless, it's a prime example of why you can't trust everything you read on the NET... For that...it is useful

billbillw

There is also the consideration of whether the 720p TV is actually 720p resolution. For the longest time, Plasmas were called 720p, but they were actually 1024x768 or 1366x768. (Native 720p is 1280x720p) That meant that everything going in, whether it was 720p or 1080i, had to be scaled to fit the TV. I'm not sure if the new 720p sets are still limited by this, but my first Panny Plasma (in 2006) had that resolution. It was only 42". The TV had some issues under warranty and Panny actually replaced it with a newer model that happened to be 1080p (still in 42"). I could easily noticed an improved image with the 1080p set, especially on 1080i signals. I'm sure that was was mainly due to better image processing (and no scaling).

All that said, I wouldn't sweat the decision between 720 and 1080 too much. For a bedroom TV, you probably won't be that critical. If you plan to watch in the dark, make sure you get a set with good black levels though That will make or break the image quality in a dark room.

cstmar01

Polk user wrote: »

I paid $685 for a 50 inch 1080P plasma 4 months ago. The prices are so low that I really see no reason to buy an HDTV that is not really HD.

To me 720P is not HD and if you ever decide to hook up a Bluray player and it's only 720P don't bother and just buy a regular DVD player.

yeahh..

nooo and bad advice.

Blu-ray at 720P still looks great and there is a huge difference between that and a DVD player.

and yes 720P is HD. Sounds like you have been following the advice of Best Buy people too much.

exalted512

I was mainly wanting to know because woot has specials all the time for TVs, but most of the time its for 720P. Someday I'd like to get a bigger TV for the bedroom, but I doubt it'll be any bigger than 46"...and at least 14' away. I need to bust out the tape measure.

All good info to know though.
-Cody

Willow

Our plasma is 720p.1080i I can tell the difference between SD and HD sitting 12 ft away. I am very please with our 720 and see no reason what so ever to get a 1080p TV. I think if you can snag a deal on a 720 go for it you won't regret it what so ever.

Joe08867

I have a 1080p and honestly unless I am playing a Bluray I don't see much difference between the 720p in the bedroom and the 1080p in the livingroom.

To me it all comes down to black levels and contrast not 720 or 1080.

amulford

Unless you get into the VERY large screens, it doesn't make much difference.

I'm using a 720p/1080i FP right now. It looks just fine to me, and that's all i give a rat's a$$ about anyway.

To me it all comes down to black levels and contrast not 720 or 1080.

Me too. I don't wanna see the pimples on that pornstars' azz...

pdxfj

I have a 50" Panny 720p Plasma I picked up from Costco a couple of years ago. I tweaked it using calibration numbers I found over at AVS.

PQ is really damn good for a 720p set. A few friends who were all set on getting LCD displays changed their minds when they saw my Plasma and were shocked that it is 720p. Blu-Ray performance didn't impress me that much at first, but after a few firmware upgrades (on my BD player) the PQ improved dramatically.

I've toyed with the idea of moving to a 55" 1080p display, but now that I'm buying the house I've been renting, there is one room in the basement that screams "Dedicated Home Theater".

Go to Costco, grab what you like. Another idea is to see what models Costco has available and check AVS for the calibration information. That is if you feel comfortable poking around in the service menus.

Remember that Costco adds another years warranty when you buy a TV from them and two more years if you use an Amex card.

cokewithvanilla

I will never in my life purchase a 720 tv.

All this crap about "you won't notice" doesn't phase me. 1080 is literally twice the pixels. Sure, it will depend on distance and size of the screen..... but I've seen a HUGE difference on a 15.6'' screen at around 4-5 feet... so I fail to believe there is no difference on a ... what do they say? 32 inch?

Now, a 32 inch 720 tv has the same ppi as a 47 1080... but hell, until we are looking at 400+ ppi, I'll take as much as I can get

aside from that, if you ever connect your computer to your display, the difference will be painfully obvious from any distance.

The price difference of a 720 vs a 1080 is around $50-75... to me, it will NEVER be worth that to get the 720.

steveinaz wrote: »

For a 46" or less sized TV 720p will be fine, even if you're "picky." And yes, 720p is high definition.

you're talking 48 ppi vs 32. Have you ever actually put those side by side and compared? At the same distance, the 1080 will be significantly better looking

as far as the definition of "HD"... the term HD is completely meaningless. It is a relative term. When 4k becomes the standard, 1080p will not be considered HD. Simply because someone sticks a "HD" sticker on the side of it, does not mean it is truly high definition (imagine if you went to the local IMAX and they were playing 720p on a 300 whatever inch display). 1280x720 is not 'HD', IMO, unless the display is less than 11 inches. To me, HD has more to do with PPI than the resolution itself.

steveinaz

I'm just speaking from real world use. I have a 50" DLP 720p native in my bedroom, probably 9-10 ft viewing distance; and while my 58" plasma panny at 1080p is distinctly sharper (livingroom)---DLP's are known for a soft picture from the get, and the Samsung displays beautifully. I think the far better black levels, and more accurate color of the panasonic are probably what is making it look nicer. Both sets were calibrated with DVE. With BluRay material, you'd be hard pressed to tell any difference at the normal viewing distance.

720p being High Definition isn't an opinion; it's a fact recognized by the entire industry.

cokewithvanilla

steveinaz wrote: »

720p being High Definition isn't an opinion; it's a fact recognized by the entire industry.

oh come on. Define 'High Definition'. It is simply a convenience term for marketers and off-hand use. It has no practical significance when talking about quality. It is easy for someone to say "hey, turn that to the HD channel"... and that's why we have the term.

Labeling 720 as 'HD' doesn't make the picture quality any better. If you want to say "I have an HD TV", then fine... you might get away with 720... but it serves no other purpose. Fact is, 720 and 1080 are two different things. Putting them into a category called 'HD' doesn't mean they are the same in any practical manner.

cstmar01

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

oh come on. Define 'High Definition'. It is simply a convenience term for marketers and off-hand use. It has no practical significance when talking about quality. It is easy for someone to say "hey, turn that to the HD channel"... and that's why we have the term.

Labeling 720 as 'HD' doesn't make the picture quality any better. If you want to say "I have an HD TV", then fine... you might get away with 720... but it serves no other purpose. Fact is, 720 and 1080 are two different things. Putting them into a category called 'HD' doesn't mean they are the same in any practical manner.

Do you acutally own anything?

Have you seen some 720P displays in action? Such as ones by Runco, Titan projectors, etc?

Oh wait your waiting for 4K. Please lets see your 100" 4K display you have.


Yes there is a difference between 720P and 1080P in the real world application most people will hardly ever notice a difference, even side by side most people fail to see differences between types of tv's like LCD and plasma.

Sherardp

Polk user wrote: »

I paid $685 for a 50 inch 1080P plasma 4 months ago. The prices are so low that I really see no reason to buy an HDTV that is not really HD.

To me 720P is not HD and if you ever decide to hook up a Bluray player and it's only 720P don't bother and just buy a regular DVD player.

Glad someone corrected this earlier on. By far it is incorrect. You can sure tell the difference with 720p HD from standard def.

TroyD

Since I just bought a new TV....I've done a LOT of looking at TV's. I can tell you that there are some 720 that had a better picture than some of the 1080's. So, that tells me that resolution numbers aren't the WHOLE enchilada. YMMV.

BDT

cokewithvanilla

cstmar01 wrote: »

Do you acutally own anything?

Have you seen some 720P displays in action? Such as ones by Runco, Titan projectors, etc?

Oh wait your waiting for 4K. Please lets see your 100" 4K display you have.


Yes there is a difference between 720P and 1080P in the real world application most people will hardly ever notice a difference, even side by side most people fail to see differences between types of tv's like LCD and plasma.

..... ok so I have to own a runco 720 projector in order to realize that twice the pixels is better? Sure, there will be tons of factors involved in which tv looks better... but this simply asks about panel resolution... whatever happened to "all else equal"? Back in 7th grade we learned to only change one variable at a time. No, I have never seen a runco 720 projector and I would not compare it to the $300 vizio tv's at walmart.

The fact that you have to downsample the source material alone introduces an entirely new factor. Everything looks best at it's native resolution... that's really not debatable.

Like I said, I've noticed a difference at 5 feet on 15.6''.. a huge difference. Whether this was due to downsampling or the fact that there are half as many pixels, it really doesn't matter. How many 720 BR's do you own?

My whole point is that 720 is pretty much being phased out and it doesn't save you enough money to even speculate on the difference. Besides that, saying that maybe you'll get a "higher quality" 720 for the price of a 1080 doesn't really work because few manufacturers are bothering with 720, much less high end 720 (to my knowledge). The used market might be a different story

And, as I mentioned, if you ever connect a computer, the difference WILL (and you really cannot debate this) be painfully obvious the instant you hook it up.

TroyD wrote: »

Since I just bought a new TV....I've done a LOT of looking at TV's. I can tell you that there are some 720 that had a better picture than some of the 1080's. So, that tells me that resolution numbers aren't the WHOLE enchilada. YMMV.

BDT

they might have had a 'better picture' (subjective) but there is no way in hell they had better detail. More pixels = more detail... regardless. If you're using a 1080 source, a 1080 tv will always have more detail than a 720... whether you notice that detail, well, that's subjective.

jinjuku

Instead of conjecture:

1080p and the Acuity of Human Vision.

Sherardp

I would say you can surely tell the difference once you've reached the 50" size screens. Afterward you should be able to see 1080p shine in all it's glory. When using a projector paired up with a 100" screen you'll definitely notice the difference right away. 720p will look good, however going full on 1080p HD the gain would be rather large.

danger boy

720P TV's are dirt cheap..... although I would never look to buy one.. since 1080 is really very affordable now too.. my 3 yr old Samusng 1080p tv now goes for less than half what I paid for it. LED's look the best IMHO and I think all of them are 1080P

RuSsMaN

I didn't read all the posts, but my rule from the videophiles I've talked to at CES etc, 42" and down, 720p is fine, 46" and up, go 1080p and reap the results.

cheddar

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

aside from that, if you ever connect your computer to your display, the difference will be painfully obvious from any distance.

This is probably more a result of scaling issues than anything else. I've used computers to play HD content on high resolution computer monitors for some time. And if you set the output to anything other than the monitor's native resolution, the results are horrible just at the desktop. But it's because of the very poor scalers in computer monitors and if you reset to the native resolution so that the computer is doing the scaling (assuming your computer has good graphics capabilities) but outputting at the monitor's native resolution, things improve dramatically.

cheddar

cokewithvanilla wrote: »

oh come on. Define 'High Definition'. It is simply a convenience term for marketers and off-hand use. It has no practical significance when talking about quality. It is easy for someone to say "hey, turn that to the HD channel"... and that's why we have the term.

Labeling 720 as 'HD' doesn't make the picture quality any better. If you want to say "I have an HD TV", then fine... you might get away with 720... but it serves no other purpose. Fact is, 720 and 1080 are two different things. Putting them into a category called 'HD' doesn't mean they are the same in any practical manner.

Over the air broadcast standards are 720p and 1080i. And cable companies get away with a lot worse with compression and whatever U-verse actually sends over its internet TV, etc. So it's not only the 'downconverting' of a 1080p signal to 720p, but also the 'upconverting' of things like 720p over the air boradcasts to 1080p. And upconverting isn't always pretty as you can see upconverting 480i signals of 'old' TV. We do have a variable quality soup of what is considered HD these days with 1080p blu-rays at the top of what most people can get. But it all comes from the 720p and 1080i broadcast standard much as 480p DVD players came from the 480i broadcast standard. So 720p sets are far from an arbitrary marketing term for HD. They actually meet, 100% one of the primary broadcast standards for HD programming.