Pure Class A Push Pull

135

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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2011
    A push pull Class A amp can't exist in my mind.

    Or show me an amp and a schematic of such.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
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  • strider
    strider Posts: 2,568
    edited March 2011
    disneyjoe7 wrote: »
    A push pull Class A amp can't exist in my mind.

    Or show me an amp and a schematic of such.

    FirstWatt F5.

    This is a modified schematic, with options for additional output devices and cascoding.
    Wristwatch--->Crisco
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2011
    What's the advantage direct coupling?

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2011
    No coloration from a passive device(cap) in the signal path.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    They are shall I say "cute".

    Yes, they are.

    Picture-1.jpg
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2011
    strider wrote: »
    FirstWatt F5.
    Yep as simple as Push Pull Class A gets.
    Ricardo wrote: »
    Yes, they are.

    Picture-1.jpg
    Well looky,looky whats under wraps.Which model and how do the SE100's stack up against it?
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2011
    strider wrote: »
    FirstWatt F5.

    This is a modified schematic, with options for additional output devices and cascoding.


    Looks to me as a high biased B class amp.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2011
    disneyjoe7 wrote: »
    Looks to me as a high biased B class amp.
    Biased for 25 watts of Class A.Like any PP will shift into class B when the signal exceeds Class A bias point.
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Biased for 25 watts of Class A.Like any PP will shift into class B when the signal exceeds Class A bias point.

    In pure Class A PP design, the designer limits shifting from Class A into Class B with power supply sizing (rails voltage), and gain structure.

    Power supply will saturate and clipping likely occur when max power in Class A is reached. The power supply in the Pure Class A PP designs are Higher Current, low to moderate rails Voltage (so they still have reserve for lower impedance load while still within Class A region).
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    Steve (disneyjoe)

    Try this.

    http://www.accuphase.com/cat/a-65_e.pdf
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Which model
    X250.
    and how do the SE100's stack up against it?

    The X250 is for sale :wink:

    To my ears, the SE-100's win in everything except maybe for the bass. Soundstage width and depth, 3D imaging and overall "tone" win hands down.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2011
    megasat16 wrote: »
    In pure Class A PP design, the designer limits shifting from Class A into Class B with power supply sizing (rails voltage), and gain structure.
    Not always and in fact think that would be an exception,with the F5 and XA series being examples of Pure Class A designs that will transition into Class B.
    Ricardo wrote: »
    The X250 is for sale :wink:
    That says it all then doesn't it.:smile:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    That says it all then doesn't it.:smile:

    That's not the whole story but feel free to interpret it however you want. :smile:

    FTR, I never criticized the way the Monarchy's sound, just the marketing. They were on my short list right below the Aleph when I was amp shopping and I will still probably own them someday. My brother had the smaller SM70 Pro's and they are a nice sounding amp. Next time I visit Ricardo I'll get my ear on these.....if he keeps them that long. Ricardo has a habit of flipping gear :biggrin:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    That's not the whole story but feel free to interpret it however you want. :smile:
    Not sure how else to interpret it :confused:.The fact that he is selling it and his description indicate he liked the Monarchy's better or atleast thats how I read it.
    FTR, I never criticized the way the Monarchy's sound, just the marketing.
    Yes your thoughts were clearly stated on both counts.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Not sure how else to interpret it :confused:.The fact that he is selling it and his description indicate he liked it better or atleast thats how I read it.

    Actually he told me he likes them about the same, but the only reason he considered selling the X250 is because of the size and heat. His listening space is very small and the X250 takes up too much real estate and generates too much heat.

    In the grand scheme of this thread it's not really that important, but sometimes you can really like the way a piece of gear sounds and in the end it just doesn't fit physically.

    I'm happy he found something that sounds as good but is smaller, less imposing and generates less heat. His listening space is cool, but small.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Actually he told me he likes them about the same, but the only reason he considered selling the X250 is because of the size and heat. His listening space is very small and the X250 takes up too much real estate and generates too much heat.

    In the grand scheme of this thread it's not really that important, but sometimes you can really like the way a piece of gear sounds and in the end it just doesn't fit physically.

    I'm happy he found something that sounds as good but is smaller, less imposing and generates less heat. His listening space is cool, but small.

    H9

    Now, what is the Grand Scheme you are talking about? :biggrin:

    Ricardo, drop the pass like it's HOT! Sell it to Brock or whoever wanting to get hit with it.

    Coz Pass is not so pure after all and I've been wronged.

    Removing Pass from my Pure Class A PP list. :wink:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2011
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Removing Pass from my Pure Class A PP list. :wink:

    And put it next to the Monarchy. :biggrin:

    I think what Ricardo said has merits too. Pass and Monarchy. Pass under the rug. Pass...pass....pass....:tongue:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited March 2011
    still at it eh? I had an opportunity to audition a pair of the Monarchy SE's compliments of Hoosier(Russ),, probabally should have picked them up too,, sweet little surprising jobbies--very fast and musical
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited May 2011
    Bump!

    :wink:
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited May 2011
    How reliable is this design?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    How reliable is this design?

    Which Design in particular?

    But talking General, Any well designed and un-abused Solid State Amplifiers could last longer than you and I with some maintenance (such as recapping).

    Same applies for the Tubes too. Tube stuff have been around the block longer than SS and some old Tubes stuff are really decent.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited May 2011
    How reliable is this design?
    In Pass's own words.
    fastz28 wrote: »

    The Aleph 1.2 has been designed for maximum reliability and years of trouble free operation. The input gain devices are pulse rated 8 amps and are followed by output devices with pulse ratings of 50 amps each. The amplifier employs 3.6 kilowatts of power Mosfet output devices and massive heat sinking rated at .05 degree per watt. During active operation the amplifier consumes 500 watts, so that each output device is operated at 14% of its rated power. The Aleph 1.2 is protected from overheating by a 75 degree C. thermal switch, and from internal failure by a slow-blow fuse.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited May 2011
    Jeebus...is this it?...and you need two of them? :eek:

    dsc_0512.jpg

    :eek: :eek:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,411
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Jeebus...is this it?...and you need two of them? :eek:

    QUOTE]

    yep

    Tom, if you can find a pair of the Monarchy 100 Deluxe monos, do youself a favor and give them a try. My failure to to sell the pair I have before I gave them a try was a very good thing for me. They sat in the box they were shipped to me during our huse remodeling, so I offered them to George and Jerry down here and they passed, Thanks George and Jerry!
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
    Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
    ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
    DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
    Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
    Outlaw ICBM - crossover
    Beringher BFD - sub eq

    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited May 2011
    Good Lord. I love great sound but, damn. I don't want to rent a warehouse to utilize it.

    Then an electric company to power it. :eek:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited May 2011
    Is Ricardo still happy with those Monarchy's?
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  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,411
    edited May 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Is Ricardo still happy with those Monarchy's?

    yes, last I heard. For what it is worth, I am too.
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
    Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
    ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
    DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
    Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
    Outlaw ICBM - crossover
    Beringher BFD - sub eq

    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited May 2011
    So your running a pair aswell?What are they driving ?
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    How reliable is this design?

    Absolutely bullet proof. I believe I saw Nelson talking about how hard they work to ensure a less than .01% failure rate of their amplifiers. There aren't a lot of designs out there that you can run into a direct short with out damage.

    The parts quality and the ultra simple design of fewer parts plays a huge role in an almost non-existent failure rate. But then many of his designs are not mass production but are hand assembled, so compared to other mass marketed amps there are fewer compromises and more attention to detail. Conversely that is reflected in the price as can be said about certain components from other manufacturer's. Obviously Pass Labs doesn't have the only "boutique" gear out there and I would expect other high end companies to have a similar philosophy and track record.

    Seems like a fair question given how hard these amps appear to run. At first I thought you might be stirring the pot, but I think back and I had a similar question run through my mind. Pass gear is extremely over built and dead reliable.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Good Lord. I love great sound but, damn. I don't want to rent a warehouse to utilize it.

    Then an electric company to power it. :eek:

    Tom, you don't have to, but if you want to play, you have to pay........a little.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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