tales from the crypt -- er i mean under the hood...

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went in to grab some stuff to do the easy partsof my yearly maintenaince on the truck...

--- nobody carries champion truck plugs anymore... have to order them offline with a 7 day wait before they show up... so i got the dog **** worth bosch platinum's for 2 bucks each ... they'll knock within a week or two, and i'll have bosch buy themback as per their guarantee, long enough to get my champions in the mail.

... plugs i pulled out are BLACK as sin. looks a bit scary.

--- figured out what's filling my throttle body with junk... bad air cleaner design. it's sucking air from an area between two fender panels of which are packed with rustproofing now (rust = bad, so i kill it before it is born), and the whole assembly was loose and sucking air in from where the mounts to the TB... so i ripped it out... bought a 30 dollar round air cleaner old school style, and then i MADE that sucker fit. had to bend up some threaded rod to get a pin in the middle but it worked.

--- found out nobody makes a rear end gasket for my truck either, so rtv silicone here i come.

--- had a 10 minute "no, i'm right" conversation with the counter moron at PB.

--- realized how absolutely filthy the engine compartment is, thus i am vowed to get a steam clean or something asap.

... k i'm done whining...

CPHILHOWER

Thats a good question. Why is Chrysler the only manufacture that uses Champion plugs? what is the difference that is causing the problems?
Chris

Jstas

Black plugs isn't really a dirt problem. It's running rich, too much fuel. That condition may be caused by the leaking intake. It could also be cause by the plug's heat range not being correct. But then again, dark gray or even black coloration is normal as long as it isn't caked on.

I'd watch the new plugs for a little while and see what they come out like. If you still have problems, you might want to check out a company called Denso. they have these Iridium plugs that the Lightning guys have been raving about. They may be worth a try. They aren't cheap but they last a good long time so replacement may not happen before you sell the truck.

wlrandall

Denso does make a good plug, as does NGK. If you want, try out a set of Autolites. A lot of us Dodge Dakota owners are using them and with great success.

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i tried Autolites in the slant six in my 88... they lasted about 10 months before they went bad... and they were the platinum ones. I dunno... just never thought too much of them. they were nice while they lasted -- hoenstly when they were going good, they seemed to run quite nice... the champion truck plugs i put in after lasted like a year and a half then i sold the truck and last i heard the guy still had them in the truck so thats like alomst 3 years now.

john - i looked in the back of the dookie haynes manual and it says basically what you're saying, its got two pictures of plugs (well its got 10 but 2 that look like mine do) that look like mine and one of em is labeled "Oil Deposits" the other is labeled "Carbon build it" -- the carbon one says just what you said -- its runnin too rick and prolly due to an intake problem. the other one it says is caused by bad valve seals and what not. this sounds stupid of me but i can't tell the difference. see they LOOK like the carbon build up... but they SMELL like burnt motor oil. it's going to the mechanic for trannie fluid change / coolant flush / brake check and a muffler so i'll bring him a couple of the used plugs and ask him what he thinks they are - oil or gas burn up.

chris - you'd be surprised... i've seen bosch, champion, and even a few plugs stamped "mopar" in dodge stuff... the stock plug in the trucks in the mid / late 90's was either a bosch standard or a champion standard copper... the only problems they were having was with the 318, 360, and V10 acting funny on plugs. the motors had a litany of misfires, hard starts, screwed up idles, and most notably acting odd at highway speeds. it was by process of elimation and word of mouth that the champion truck plug got into the mix... some of the local dealers heard the same stuff i heard and experienced, and read some of the articles i had read and i guess picked up on the notion and started special stocking a small amount of the truck plugs in their service centers for use on only those motors when maintenance was due or people bitched about it making funny noises or hesitating.

some posting regarding the truck plug vs stock plug vs other stuff...
http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/spark_plugs/spark_plugs.htm

some posting regarding general hate of low line champion stuff...
http://mailman.xmission.com/pipermail/dirt/Week-of-Mon-20030714/028441.html

http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/884216/gotomsg/887837.cfm

i just did a little google search, teh same one i did many moons ago when i was trying to figure out why my truck ran like a pig occasionally...

I have been iffy on champion as a whole for a while. champion plugs and old fram products fouled up my grandfather's 78 GMC pickup to high hell... newer fram stuff seems quite better and actually something i pretty much swear by lately. the champion truck plug is the only champion plug i've used to date personally, and probably the only one i will... i am not much for standard-ish plugs... the delco base plugs i got for the caddy look like ****. if i can find myself a decent grade average plug with long life and built to burn, then i'll be a happy camper.

i had no idea nippon-denso made plugs... i'll look into that -- if their plugs are as torture tested as their alternators, it may be a good investment.

Jstas

They are going to smell like burned oil no matter what. The plugs would have oil on them, not burned but liquid oil, if you needed a valve job. Oil on the threads is actually quite common and can because caused by a leaky valve cover or even a sloppy oil change.

I'd fix that vaccum leak on the intake and you should have no more problems with it.

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hmm -- well good then. ya it seems more sooty than "liquidy"... like burned up but not gummy... cool, good then.

ya i have the factory air cleaner assembly in the garage just "chillin" -- the round one i've got on there now seems to seat down much better, its kind of filmsy material that its made out of -- but i guess that's what i get for 30 bucks. long as it works i dont care. i gummed out the TB with enough intake cleaner to kill a small colony of rats and it got rid of most of the whistling. i'll do it again jst for good measure, if after a 6 months she dont whistle then i'll know the new style air cleaner did its job.

oh, and when u say "vaccuum leak" i'm assuming you're referring to my statement about it sucking air in from where the cleaner mounts to the TB.

if not - then lemme say that the stock air cleaner only had two things hooked up to it -- one was a hose going into the manifold, i guess the motor sucks warmer air off there when its starting in cold weather... and the other was just a pin that it held itself in place with but did not actually go into anything air wise. there aren't actually any hoses or anything other than that one that go into the cleaner.

wlrandall

Keep in mind also that some whistling is normal. Crack the throttle by hand with the hood up. When released, you'll hear the IAC whistle; it's perfectly normal and very obvious with an aftermarket air cleaner.

Jstas

Yes, the air leak in the intake tube is what I was reffering to.

I have a question that you may not have an answer to. Is your truck speed-density fuel injection or mass-air?

Also, whistling can be normal. Depands on where it is coming from. If it comes from the mouth of teh throttle body than its just fine. It whistles for the same reason a beer bottle whistles when you blow across the mouth. It's just turbulent air around the edge of the throttle body opening causing the same phenomenon that makes the beer bottle whistle. Also, any leading edge that juts out into the air stream will make a whistling noise. Even a gasket can do it. I wouldn't worry about it.

wlrandall

jstas,

All Dodge trucks use speed density systems, FYI. And right you are about the noise sources; mine is particularly noisy because of the intake I'm running.

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speed density whats a ma-jigger-ish .... lol... i'm glad wlrandall had an answer to that - as i surely did not thanks dude.

far as the whistling -- grandfather's truck doesnt' do it -- most of hte other dodge's i've driven dont do it -- just the dirty ones... the ones that have been used as work trucks and are clearly drenched in dirt and crap...

some whistling is one thing... a lot is another... the little bit i can deal with but i can tell when its getting loud -- its all gooky on the TB and after it gets cleaned its much less... the other reason i think its not a good thing is because my gas mileage goes down a little bit, and it'll hesitate just a tad.

the new air filter deal is workin out nice so far. maybe its in my head, i dunno, but i got rid of like 75% of the whistling... still just a tiny bit -- i guess i didn't do as good a cleaning job as the mechanic did last time, but thats ok - i'll keep workin at it - but get this -- i'm on the thruway and i just slam the hammer down and it seemed to have just a tiny bit more get up and go. almost as if i hit the gas and VROOM instead of i hit the gas - pause - VROOM.

the only thing i can think is its more of an unrestricted airflow now ??

this isn't the prettiest air cleaner assembly on earth -- cheap lookin as hell -- but it does the job, and i'm happy with it so far.

wlrandall

PBD,

Did you clean the IAC motor and the part of the TB where it mounts?? They're pretty bad about buildup in that area, might be time to get the Berryman's back out...

What engine do you have??

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its the 5.9L 360 8 cyl.

i didn't pull the TB off -- i just sprayed the **** out of it from up top and took the ol' toothbrush to her.

i'm squeamish about pulling the TB right off... pulling the carburetor off the cadillac proved to be a significant amount of work when putting back on / resetting properly. i'm kind of the belief now of "if it aint really busted, dont fix it"... i'd prefer to try to find a manner of cleaning it up w/out pulling it off.

as far as the IAC -- forgive my stupidity but what's the IAC?

Jstas

IAC = Idle Air Controller

Does the same thing as the idle set screw on a carb. Well, kinda. It's controlled by a motor in most cases and the armature that comes out of the motor to control the butterfly can get gummed up, so can the butterfly (throttle vane plate. the part that moves, inside the throttle body.) Throttle body cleaner and a tooth brush usually takes care of it. Gunk Engine Degreaser works too but it can damage parts so if you use it, keep it away from anything soft and be careful with it. Personally, I'd use the TB cleaner.

Off the shelf stuff, CRC or Gumout make the best ones. The Berryman's stuff isn't so great off the shelf. Sometimes though, if you can convince a parts place that you are a jobber and doing the work, you can get the Berryman's fuel injector cleaner concentrate. It gets mixed with a solvent or water to dilute it but I haven't seen much of anything else work better than the concentrate yet. Real caustic stuff though and I doubt you'll be able to get it so it isn't really worth trying. Just stick with the CRC or Gumout. or even the Berryman's stuff if you want.

If you want a fuel additive, the STP Complete System cleaner is the best stuff I have used. Either that or the Gumout stuff. In a pinch though, the SNAP Fuel Injector cleaner will work fine and help get rid of moisture in a system. Believe it or not, that can be big problems. What may be insignificant at one elevation can be a real pain at another elevation in regards to moisture. DRY-GAS or the SNAP stuff is cheap and cleans up excessive moisture and helps clean injectors.

It's also good to run a fuel additive especially in the spring. Mainly because the winter fuels have added O2 which also does such wonderful things like carry dirt and other impurities into your system and moisture can tag along with it too. Since it's only sold from the end of October to the beginning of like March or something, it's not so bad. But, all those impurities and such can strip lubricant from the fuel injection seals in the fuel system. The additives will help break up deposits, keep the seals and such lubricated and remove moisture from the system. Regular fuel has additives like this in it already. The stuff you buy in the store isn't a cure-all but it is by no means snake oil either. It's just used to give an extra oomph to those detergents and such that are already in the fuel you buy from the gas station. If used regularly, like once or twice a year, it can help prolong the life of such things as pressure regulators, fuel injectors and fuel pumps. All of which can be expensive.

One other thing most of them have is octane booster. It's really only methyl-alcohol which is meant to strip moisture out. It has a second, less important purpose though. It can raise the octane a half point or so. That creates extra heat in the combustion chamber to help clean off the deposits that the solvents are working to loosen up.

wlrandall

Good job, jstas, thanks for answering that.

The only exception to me would be the additives/cleaners. If your fuel isn't tainted, I don't believe in using them as they further dilute the fuel.

On the Dodges, the IAC is in its own airpath, a bypass around the main venturi and has a pintle instead of a butterfly. Same shape as an injector pintle just much larger.

PBD,

You don't have to remove the TB, although on Dodges it's very easy. The IAC is on the back side attached with Torx screws.

wlrandall

PBD, did I mention that the 4.7 rules??



J/K...had to throw that in...

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4.7 goes "woof woof" - tucks tail and runs... lol.

well i got a bottle of gumout injector/tb cleaner today that goes in the tank with the gas - mixed it rich with out 13-15 gallons of gas instead of the reccomended 20.

twice a year i put STP fuel system additive (Red bottle of ****) in the tank with every fill up for 3 or 4 weeks (which is like 3 or 4 tanks since i do like a tank a week). usually mid winter / mid summer.

glad to hear i can get it pretty much as clean as i want it without havin to pull anything apart.

after day two of this new air cleaner, it really seems like the motor actualy runs better with it... it seems like it shifts smoother and has virtually no hesitation whatsoever -- still a little whistle but its intermittant now instead of steady -- gonna hack it with some more of the spray CRC Intake Cleaner i've been using -- glad to know i'm at least using decent stuff.

I dont think i'll touch the iac -- it's not jerky at idle, not too airy, not too rich (least not by my judgement)... so that's one les thing to worry about... and i didn't mess with any linkage or anything on there so all is well.

so you think i oughta run a little more additive (like not in particular to the immediate, i mean like in general as per what u were saying about the gas changing in the winter and stuff) ????

and on the off chance i had to adjust the iac - how would i go about it? i mean its prolly just a screw or some **** right? but more importantly what is the goal i'm aiming for by adjusting it??? to overall make it more or less airy or just more or less at idle ?

thanks again guys

Jstas

There is oxygenated gas treatment but I wouldn't worry about additives so much. Once or twice a year usually works just fine and even then I only use an additive for one tank full and thats it.

You can't manually adjust the IAC. Well, you can but you have to ground out the motor and even then, you adjustment will screw it up because the car's computer usually takes care of adjusting idle speed. So don't even worry about it.

wlrandall

LOL, tucks tail...we won't even go there, despite the fact that I have whipped up on a few 5.9ers.

True, there is no way to "adjust" the IAC, but it can be controlled with a scantool to change the idle speed during diagnostics.

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Originally posted by wlrandall
LOL, tucks tail...we won't even go there, despite the fact that I have whipped up on a few 5.9ers.

try me

i'll redline it and obliterate the damn thing before i let a 4.7 pass me. --- 5.7's however may feel free to pass with ease, as I know my place. lolol


oh and what kind of an intake is that you have there... i had wanted a KnN one but they said the armature ended up where my second battery is (dual batteries like the diesels for the radio)... that filter assy however seems to clear it just barely... who's it made by ? where can ya get one ?

thanks

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by the way -- its FILTHY UNDER THE HOOD -- i'm lookin at that nice shiney engine above goin "man this needs a steam clean"

wlrandall

Dude, you're on!! And yes, I yield to the Hemi as well.

That intake is made by AirForce One and can be found at truckperformance.com. I wanted a K&N, but they weren't available when I had to have one.

Try the foaming Gunk engine cleaner, I've had good luck with it. Can't stand a dirty one either, I do most of my own work and get irked when I fill a fresh wound with black, greasy dirt...

Jstas

Pfft! 5.7 my foot! I yeild to no one because they are usually slower than me!

But sometimes, dirty cars can be avoided. I've worked on many many cars and all but 3 of them were dirty and greasy. I've inadvertantly eaten anything that comes out of a car, gotten all kinds of crap in my eyes and up my nose and have even bled at least once on many projects. Dirt and grease is inherent in automotive stuff. Then again, I'm not afriad to get elbow deep into an engine. I've actually sat in teh engine bay of a Jeep, with the engine in it, just to reach the top 2 bolts on the transmission.

I have jeans with grease spots that are so heavy that they have lingered for years and now qualify as "clean dirt" because it was washed.

Where is the fun if you don't get dirty?

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Originally posted by Jstas

I have jeans with grease spots that are so heavy that they have lingered for years and now qualify as "clean dirt" because it was washed.

... now THAT'S a novel idea!

getting dirty is all well and good -- nothing more refreshing than being caked in **** as long as its not jammed down into my already fked up ear drums. i just kinda look at the under hood area and see like a 1/16th or in places 1/8th of an inch of sludge over everything and i would like to get it at least remotely clean -- not shiney or anything, just sorta clean...

so Gunk makes a foaming one? how exactly does that work ? just about any place have it?

wlrandall

Yes, they do. Just spray it on the engine when it's warm, let it sit and rinse. I usually do it at the car wash so I can use the high pressure spray. Pep Boys and Autozone both carry it.

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sweetness !

Jstas

Originally posted by wlrandall
Yes, they do. Just spray it on the engine when it's warm, let it sit and rinse. I usually do it at the car wash so I can use the high pressure spray. Pep Boys and Autozone both carry it.

Uh, not a good idea. High pressure sprays can and do force water into places it shouldn't be like electrical connections and oiling systems. It's better to use your garden hose and a long-handled brush to scrub off stubborn grease. Or at least use a low pressure setting at the do-it-yoself car wash.

As far as whether or not it has happened to you yet, consider yourself lucky. I had a friend do it to his grilfriend's car. He wanted to detail it for her while she was away visiting family. He washed the engine bay with the high pressure hose at the car wash. He drove it home and started to clean the interior. When he went to start it, nothing worked. I ended up replacing about 650 dollars in electrical parts on that Sunbird and if I hadn't done the work for him it easily would have peaked 1K including labor. When she got home, the car was immaculate. She looked under the hood too and said "WOW! It all looks brand new!" I never told her it was but that's a pretty expensive way to get a little action.

wlrandall

Yes, it was a problem in the old days before weatherpak terminals, but for every vehicle my wife and I have owned past 1990 it's never been a problem. Probably helps that I don't get too close with the nozzle except on the firewall and fenders.

Jstas

Um, that Sunbird was of 1992 vintage. Water will get anywhere and does get everywhere and causes problems every time. If you want to continue pressing your luck, that's fine by me. But my experience and advice says to quit while you are ahead and use a less ham-fisted way of removing dirt from your engine bay. Especially if you have expensive stereo electronics that could easily be fried by some rouge water completeing a circuit that circumvents any type of high-current fusing system.

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well i've yet to wash out the bay *by any means - brush / hose, pressure, or otherwise... *.... i've got bigger issues...

before i get to em yet -- isn't there a no-water "Steam clean" thing they do to engines too? and if so - what's that cost? and does it hurt anything? its not something i'd do regulaly, but the truck is 4 yrs old and i think its due for something cleaning wise in there.


ok now my issue-- i bougt a dual exhaust from summit racing... yes... i did... u may admire me now... but wait till i tell u my agony...

it said "BOLT ON" -- its not "BOLT ON".

the F***** front pipe of the stock **** outa the cat is clamped to teh muffler's front pipe -- which fine, u say "unclamp it" -- well it spinched together and rusted solid (me hate rust ... now me hate pinched ****).

so i get like 9 rubber **** hanger things off only to find i cant get the damn thing apart.

now i need to find a guy with an Acetaline (spelling) torch to zap it apart.

then -- the **** at summit gave me a front pipe thats like 10 feet long. so i have to cut through that somehow (note i tired to cut the stock pipe with a circular saw, a jig saw, a hacksaw, and even a hammer and chisel -- that was when i was just frustrated -- to no avail at all -- i just scratched it.. thats all).

the back pipes are too long too.

so i gotta cut 3 pipes from the kit... fkin fun.

imma bout to stick my johnson in the vice.

Jstas

Dude, 150 some odd dollars at Sears and get yourself a Craftsman 4 inch angle grinder. Cuts through exhaust systems like butter. One of the best tools I ever bought.

Don't be worried about cutting the old muffler off. You can goto an autoparts store and pick up a piece of exhaust piping already expanded at the ends to slip pipe into. Get that and clamp it down and call it a day. Also grab a tube of the exhaust stop leak stuff and slather it over every joint.