Not exactly happy with the results but it is what it is.

mantis

What's up everyone?
Over the last 2 years , I have been using a Apple TV 2 store my cd's on. I tried at first to use the PS3 for this duty and is where I came up with the idea to do this in the first place. I already had a pretty good library of music on itunes as I have had Ipods and Iphones for years. I converted most of my music to Lossless that was real important to me and left some of it in 256k. This was just stuff I purchased in itunes.
I have done a few shootouts with the cd and the Apple Tv and for the most part I felt they sounded the same , until last night. I was listening to Steely Dan 2 against nature and noticed a few things sounded different. On the cd ( using my Cambridge Audio Azur 650BD) I heard the Hi hats a tad clearer and it seemed brighter overall. When I switched back to Apple TV , I noticed the Hi hats where pushed back slightly and it was a tad warmer if you will. I also noticed a slight difference in dynamic range. Now I never noticed this before , both players are wired in HDMI for the main zone and using the Wolfson 8740 DAC's in the ELite. If Steely Dan is recorded into the Apple TV in Lossless why would it sound any different? I'm using the same exact DAC.

Now my question is as I remember someone doing some Itunes shoot outs with other software , is there a better way to record my CD's? A better software? Can I still use my Apple TV or if actual sound quality is preferred what are you guys using a media center?

I use the living hell out of my Apple TV as I have a whole house music system and use the Apple TV as a source. I use Iphones to control it when I'm out in the garage , deck etc. it's freakin awesome. But when I want to sit down and listen to a piece of music , I don't want to compromise sound quality for connivence. I can easily go get the disc's they all live in my basement in a large media tower.

Years ago I use to use my Pioneer ELite 400 Dics mega changer but that thing is a pain in the ****. You have to sit there with a keyboard and type in all the Cd's that don't have the info on the disc for it to read.

I have access to other cd servers but once you go that route,your looking at some serious money not to mention loading one disc and re ripping all that music will piss me off. I'm actually planning out my next upgrade but this isn't something I was considering for this move.

It's not a huge deal as if you don't listen to the actual cd , you would never know the slight differences as my system sounds fantastic. Funny I also got a new respect for my Mythos ST playing music. They do that once in a while. They tend to surprise me. Certain things sounded a certain way on my Dynes and I look for that emotional connection. Some things I feel the ST's miss that.

mantis

Lush , we gotta talk , I'm gonna re record Steely Dan in .WAV with bit correction and take a listen. I'm hoping it will allow me to store both copies so I can compare .

mantis

Ok I'm ripping and I can have both Apple Lossless version and the .wav version at the same time , cool now I have some listening to do.

Lush where are you bro?

mantis

Gaslighting Abbie in Apple Lossless is 1411 KBPS and in .WAV it's 910KBPS.
Both are recorded in 44.1khz sample rate.

I have not listened yet as It's still ripping the rest of the disc but it looks to me that Apple Lossless is coping the entire song correctly and .WAV is compressing it some.

Come on people shed some light on this as I'm not a master of recording bite rates , sample rates etc. I know enough to get myself in trouble.

Ace944gs

I'm also very interested in this topic. I've had the Gen1 aTV for a number of years, and used to run it through my HK 635 for background music. Recently, I've re-ripped my CD's into Apple lossless, and am getting prepared to use the aTV as a source for my recently acquired (and still under construction) 2 channel rig. Sound quality will be the number one priority for the source in this system, but I really appreciate the convenience of the aTV. It integrates seamlessly into our digital household, and would hate to move to something less so...

I think there was another thread a few weeks ago about the aTV, and how it doesn't output bit-perfect data, which to my incredibly naive self might explain what you're experiencing. I'm not just there yet to comment personally since the 2ch is being built, but I've been anticipating this and have had a tough time thinking of what else to do.

Mantis- I'm assuming, but wanted to check- you're using the gen1 aTV too? Wonder if anyone can comment on any potential differences in sound reproduction between the two versions.

mantis

If you look at this list, the first song is in lossless and same song 2nd one is WAV.


I have transferred both copies to the Apple TV for extensive testing. Wish me luck.

VR3

CD rules lossless drools

mantis

Ace944gs wrote: »

I'm also very interested in this topic. I've had the Gen1 aTV for a number of years, and used to run it through my HK 635 for background music. Recently, I've re-ripped my CD's into Apple lossless, and am getting prepared to use the aTV as a source for my recently acquired (and still under construction) 2 channel rig. Sound quality will be the number one priority for the source in this system, but I really appreciate the convenience of the aTV. It integrates seamlessly into our digital household, and would hate to move to something less so...

I think there was another thread a few weeks ago about the aTV, and how it doesn't output bit-perfect data, which to my incredibly naive self might explain what you're experiencing. I'm not just there yet to comment personally since the 2ch is being built, but I've been anticipating this and have had a tough time thinking of what else to do.

Mantis- I'm assuming, but wanted to check- you're using the gen1 aTV too? Wonder if anyone can comment on any potential differences in sound reproduction between the two versions.

yes I have a 160g Apple TV , I can bring a Apple TV streamer home anytime I want for shootout but I can stream music to my apple tv and it does't sound as good as it does with the hard drive.
Its the best damn music server on the market for ease of use and super high cool factor with controlling it over the app. Not to mention Air play is hot as hell but I can only use music , the new apple tv can do everything. Apple should have done a software upgrade to allow all things Airplay to work with the Gen 1 ATV.

debussyj

I don't use the apple tv. Instead, I have a dedicated maxed out apple mini computer that is my media server. I have the large audio files and it's connected directly to my dacmagic. I don't stream tunes at all on my system. Excellent results, but I do get where your coming from. If I get into my serious listening mode, I use my pioneer bdp-09fd in pure audio. Just my thing. But the Mac mini rig is pretty damn good. Best of luck!

DON73

I'm not completely sold on the idea that tubes are better but I'd like to try them
before I can't. I would be using a tube amp with vinyl and CD. I can use any of the speakers listed below. My listening room will be a small 13'X14' room with drywall and carpet and a window along about 3/4 of the long side. I would be satisfied with volume from 90db-95db. If there is a tube amplifier in this town I haven't heard of it! So I have to buy mail order or drive to where the one I'm interested in is. Most people on e-bay are very proud of their tube offerings and have set the prices so that they can most likely keep them. I don't really have a budget and can buy pretty much anything I want but I' (and my grandkids) would like to keep the price to about $600-$700. If I used one of my preamps (Adcom) or one of my amps (Adcom, B&k or Pioneer) would I get the "real" tube or would I have to go tubes in both preamp and amp? Is there an integrated tube amp that I should consider? There are some tube amps from China on e-bay but I've heard someone in Canada is selling the same or similar amps without the long boat trip. Any suggestions (sensible) are appreciated.

adam2434

Couple long-shot things came to mind that could impact the quality of the digital audio output...

Does the ATV have a volume control for the digital audio output? I don't think so, based on the limited experience I have with the ATV.

Does the ATV have the "Sound Check" feature that iTunes has?

I know that when streaming to the new ATV, there is some sample rate conversion (everything to 48 kHz I believe), which could degrade the digital output However, your music is on the ATV's hard drive (if I understand correctly), but I'm not sure if the ATV would do sample rate conversion internally. You could verify that if you had a DAC with a sample rate indicator.

Additional experimentation thoughts...

Perhaps try the optical output from the ATV.

Do you have a Mac laptop? If so, you could experiment by using the mini-jack optical output to determine if that sounds different/better vs. the ATV. This could help determine if the issue stems from the ATV.

I am interested in whether you can hear a difference between wav and lossless. I would not expect a difference, but some folks report hearing a difference.

disneyjoe7

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

CD rules lossless drools

Agreed

+1

PrazVT

+1 to FLAC / Apple Lossless and removing a mechanical device and associated coloration from the chain

BlueFox

I suspect the problem is Apple TV. I recently upgraded my Wadia 170 iPod dock to the 171, and sold the 170 to another Club Polk member. This is what he wrote in regard to comparing the Wadia to AppleTV.

"I got the 170 yesterday, the unit looks brand new! I spent last night listening to a few different music genres with the Mrs. I switched between the two without letting her know which was which. Initially she favored the streaming via iTunes, she heard the vocals a little more clearly and sharply via the AppleTV and I concur, but after a few different songs she and I both realized that the the emphasis was on sharper and more forward versus overall quality.

Music via the Wadia moved the soundstage back and the speakers disappeared more. I think the overall music was fuller and a little softer via the Wadia. I am not sure what would cause these experiences, but overall we both agreed that the Wadia/Ipod was the better source and more enjoyable for extended listening, especially on acoustics and female vocals. "

Post 8
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112423

mantis

BlueFox wrote: »

I suspect the problem is Apple TV. I recently upgraded my Wadia 170 iPod dock to the 171, and sold the 170 to another Club Polk member. This is what he wrote in regard to comparing the Wadia to AppleTV.

"I got the 170 yesterday, the unit looks brand new! I spent last night listening to a few different music genres with the Mrs. I switched between the two without letting her know which was which. Initially she favored the streaming via iTunes, she heard the vocals a little more clearly and sharply via the AppleTV and I concur, but after a few different songs she and I both realized that the the emphasis was on sharper and more forward versus overall quality.

Music via the Wadia moved the soundstage back and the speakers disappeared more. I think the overall music was fuller and a little softer via the Wadia. I am not sure what would cause these experiences, but overall we both agreed that the Wadia/Ipod was the better source and more enjoyable for extended listening, especially on acoustics and female vocals. "

Post 8
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112423

We sell the Wadia Ipod docks , I'm gonna bring one home for testing. I'm also thinking of bringing in my Apple TV to my shop and listen to it vs our Cambridge Azur 840c cd player on some Byston or Krell gear. I hav a full array of Totem , Magies , Vanderstiens and some Focals I can try all this out on. Kimber and Cardos everywhere so I'm covered to have the best of the best for my tests. My system may not be as revealing as most of what I have in our store. So I can test better there.

But so far lossless vs .wav I really can't tell a difference. I went back and forth one song for about an hour. I got sick of doing the test so I decided to take this test to the lab.

BlueFox

mantis wrote: »

But so far lossless vs .wav I really can't tell a difference. I went back and forth one song for about an hour. I got sick of doing the test so I decided to take this test to the lab.

When stereophile reviewed the Wadia a couple years ago they put some effort into comparing Apple Lossless to the original CD file, and could find zero difference. Thier quote was something like "bit for bit identical" when comparing the uncompressed Apple Lossless file to the origianl CD file.

txcoastal1

mantis wrote: »

We sell the Wadia Ipod docks , I'm gonna bring one home for testing. I'm also thinking of bringing in my Apple TV to my shop and listen to it vs our Cambridge Azur 840c cd player on some Byston or Krell gear. I hav a full array of Totem , Magies , Vanderstiens and some Focals I can try all this out on. Kimber and Cardos everywhere so I'm covered to have the best of the best for my tests. My system may not be as revealing as most of what I have in our store. So I can test better there.

But so far lossless vs .wav I really can't tell a difference. I went back and forth one song for about an hour. I got sick of doing the test so I decided to take this test to the lab.

Please keep us updated

Tony M

DON73 wrote: »

I'm not completely sold on the idea that tubes are better but I'd like to try them
before I can't. I would be using a tube amp with vinyl and CD. I can use any of the speakers listed below. My listening room will be a small 13'X14' room with drywall and carpet and a window along about 3/4 of the long side. I would be satisfied with volume from 90db-95db. If there is a tube amplifier in this town I haven't heard of it! So I have to buy mail order or drive to where the one I'm interested in is. Most people on e-bay are very proud of their tube offerings and have set the prices so that they can most likely keep them. I don't really have a budget and can buy pretty much anything I want but I' (and my grandkids) would like to keep the price to about $600-$700. If I used one of my preamps (Adcom) or one of my amps (Adcom, B&k or Pioneer) would I get the "real" tube or would I have to go tubes in both preamp and amp? Is there an integrated tube amp that I should consider? There are some tube amps from China on e-bay but I've heard someone in Canada is selling the same or similar amps without the long boat trip. Any suggestions (sensible) are appreciated.

Hi Don,

I think you should copy and paste your question into a thread you start.

I see know one is answering you here and I sure can't answer since I haven't heard tubes for 30 years. It was a Fisher tube amp and it was powerful. I wasn't into detail back then as mush as I am now but I'm with you. I hear it's warm and such but I'm going to hold off until I can afford the trial effort for an increase in sound quality over what I have now just a little longer. Good luck in your search for an affordable tuber.

mantis

BlueFox wrote: »

When stereophile reviewed the Wadia a couple years ago they put some effort into comparing Apple Lossless to the original CD file, and could find zero difference. Thier quote was something like "bit for bit identical" when comparing the uncompressed Apple Lossless file to the origianl CD file.

So far I'm gonna have to agree , I couldn't hear anything different at all. I tried my **** off and I'm pretty good at picking even the smallest thing up.

olilugo

mantis wrote: »

So far I'm gonna have to agree , I couldn't hear anything different at all. I tried my **** off and I'm pretty good at picking even the smallest thing up.

Hey Mantis, I wanted to see if I can understand what you are trying to do.
At its core you are trying to compare a CD ripped using apple lossless say .m4a vs. the same CD ripped using .WAV.

I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind:
1. The quality of the CD ? was the CD creating using some lessens sampling frequency to begin with.
2. Make sure you are not mixing DACs.
For #1, I have compared .flac and .m4a vs. the CD and I didn?t see any difference whatsoever.
Here is how I did it:
For flac/.m4a files in a USB flash drive -> connected to the front of my SC-07 pioneer, this will use the internal SC-07 DAC. Then compared to the CD playing it as follows; CD using a pioneer elite DV 48av CD/DVD player set up so that I just bit stream into my SC-07 ? this setup should also use the SC-07 DAC instead of the pioneer 48av.
Using this testing method, I found no differences between .flac and .m4a.

However, I did find differences between lossless (.flac/.m4a)and .WAV files.

If you pass the information using different DAC?s then, I will assume the DAC?s differences is what you are listening to.
For all I know you might be able to have a .wav file + a top end DAC and be more satisfied than the actual CD using a very low end DAC.

txcoastal1

olilugo wrote: »

However, I did find differences between lossless (.flac/.m4a)and .WAV files.

What were the +/- comparisons between flac/m4a and .wav

LuSh

Hey Mantis,

Sorry I'm late. Computer streaming as I've learned over these last few months has a really steep learning curve. A big part of the reason is it's so new and very few people (I trust) know what the hell they're talking about so I've tried to experiment and talk with engineers directly (Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio was good, as was John Wright over at Museatex, Steve knew more but John had experience in testing which I trust.).

First before we get into all the bit rates and compressions you have to start with the PC or Mac. Mac and PC output things differently if all other variables are the same. I know this sounds crazy but it's true. If possible test it. Load a PC laptop using iTunes and then try using a Mac Book using iTunes. iTunes will actually sound better on the MAC. I have no idea why but Steve and others have mentioned that MAC's OS System is very basic to the point it doesn't require huge amounts of dither and transcoding to do very simple operations. PC while very powerful does a 10000 things in the back ground to do a simple task. That's the most laymen way it was explained to me. But like I said please do your own test, and to all others reading this thread I don't care to debate the point. Test it and perhaps your results will differ.

Secondly, iTunes is a horrible music playback software platform. It's ragged with jitter, poor implementation of dither and a host of other problems. If you use a MAC or PC and do digital out into a DAC take two seconds to download a free trial program which will allow for direct A/B comparisons in real time. My jaw dropped. I downloaded Pure Music Channel D software (free for 15 days) which wraps itself around iTunes (you see iTunes for organization purposes) and takes over sending out the data stream. Using a Mark Levinson Pre/Amp, Revel Speakers and a Cambridge DAC magic into a MAC Book Pro I did side by side comparisons of music played through iTunes and music played through Pure Music Channel D. The differences aren't subtle.

PC users are limited as many Third Party Audiophile players are built specifically for MAC's (as MAC is the preferred hardware) but there are options such as Foobar and J Rivers Media software. None of these third party players will work with Apple TV, however I've seen additional programs that will allow these programs to work with Apple TV. I haven't tested any of them as I thought it would be pointless and who the hell knows what would go on with 3 different programs trying to work together to do the simple task of making music...

If you're using a MAC or MacBook pro then use AIFF (it will allow for tagging and is lossless in itself). Now back to Apple TV...Steve with discussions with people at Amarra has told me that Apple TV will not treat audio like a data stack. It is not a data stack like say a wireless printer or other WiFi device. It is actually treated like audio and is transcoded, so if it's WAV it gets transcoded into Apple Lossless and then back into it's native format...other devices such as Logitech's Squeeze Box DO NOT operate in this manner and stream differently treating the audio as a data stack. Hence if you're using a PC and sound quality is your number one concern then using a Logitech Squeeze box and using a third party PC platform such as J Rivers Media is your best bet and there are app's for allowing you too use your iPhone for remote control. Also, the Logitech allows for Coaxial digital connection as opposed to the inferior Toslink. (I don't want to start a debate/war on this principle as I don't have the time).

The preferred connections for PC audio are as follow's. ASync Firewire (Hard to find Weiss Media and a few others have it) ASync USB (Wavelength DAC's, Ayre, Arcam's rDAC) then Coaxial and then Toslink (make sure it's glass fibered - I use a Wireworld SuperNova 6, John Wright says any cheap glass will work) and then HDMI. As you move up the chain in computer audio streaming you'll notice two distinct improvements - at least in my experience - weight and depth. I have to turn off my critical listening ears when using my apple TV, if I don't and I begin to focus I notice a few tiny things that becomes a very big deal quickly. My current setup lacks a certain weight in the music and things get edgy really quickly if I begin to focus. All these edges are removed and a certain weight is restored when moving back to a dedicated transport with Digital Coaxial connection.

Having said all of this I love my Apple TV as it has made me listen to music a lot more. I love the iTunes Genius function (I start with a song on my mind and let iTunes fill in the rest). Upgrades can be done to maximize performance. In my experience these things add more weight and tighter focus...Using WAV on my PC as opposed to Apple Lossless. Maybe it was all in my head but I believe I'm getting a better signal with WAV and Error correction on when I rip my CD's, better focus. Replacing the bad Toslink (some uber fiber based marketing BS) with a proper glass fiber based cable (WireWorld SuperNova 6) allowed for again better weight and tighter focus, my brain could follow the music. My next upgrade will be a powercable (AudioQuest NRG-2) as users on Computeraudiohiples forum have all said they believe it made a difference.

Having rambled on all I can conclude is that Apple TV will rarely give you true 'Audiophile' performance but get you close as long as you don't begin to focus on the negatives - my problem is that I focus on the small negatives (weight, depth of sound, image) and they dominate my listening experience to the point I want to turn off the Apple TV. I have learned to relax and simply enjoy all the other positives to the listening experience. I understand that my DAC was never really designed for PC playback and it's optical input (by admission of the company which built it) will sound inferior to digital coaxial. Moving forward I will eventually build a streaming based system. On my early short list includes a MAC mini running Pure Music's Channel D software and using an ASync digital connection into a DAC with an adequate power supply (I find DAC Magics, rDAC's offer great value but really falter on the PS side of things) probably a Weiss used or perhaps Ayre used. If you want short term gain with no long term pain I would suggest buying a Squeeze box and using a third party software program like J River and buying a used DAC from the 90's. You get to keep the iPhone for control and the used DAC's Power Supply will be light years ahead of whats out today for the same price. The Logitech will allow for digital coaxial output (which is what most DAC's up until now are all about). If you want to keep the APPLE TV - Which is fantastic - then use an Optical Glass Fiber cable and try and borrow an Audioquest power cable.

Streaming can sound very very good if you have the time and money. Last week I used a MAC Book Pro running Channel D using a crapola mini to Toslink into my DAC and did a direct A/B to a Mark Levinson no. 512 CD Player. I have liked the ML 512 better then my DAC after previous A/B comparisons but it was close...this time I felt the ML 512 was ahead of the PC/DAC combo but I wondered if things like the crappy Toslink and better Power Cable I had used could have closed the gap, if it had I would have taken the PC/DAC combo and the DAC used wasn't really designed to take on any of the advantages that computer audio has, specifically A Sync streaming.

DON73

tony millard wrote: »

Hi Don,

I think you should copy and paste your question into a thread you start.

I see know one is answering you here and I sure can't answer since I haven't heard tubes for 30 years. It was a Fisher tube amp and it was powerful. I wasn't into detail back then as mush as I am now but I'm with you. I hear it's warm and such but I'm going to hold off until I can afford the trial effort for an increase in sound quality over what I have now just a little longer. Good luck in your search for an affordable tuber.

I entered this as a new thread but somehow it made it's way into this thread. I'm a complete failure when it comes to doing things like cut and paste. I apologize to the OP and if I could delete my post I would