RAS (Rockford Audio Society) Mini/Bookshelf Speaker Shootout
blakeh
Posts: 491
Rich (SCompRacer), Doug (dkg999), Aaron (All212), Brock (heiney9), and I (blakeh) all got together to compare a bunch of mini/bookshelf speakers. Aaron was the gracious host and we managed to fit in some great conversation, delicious food, and even some decent evaluation of speakers! I thought I would post the results of the meet for everyone here.
First of all, I can't speak for everyone in RAS group with these results. All of us agreed on most of the speakers, but each of us have a particular sound we're looking for when it comes to musical reproduction. Because of this, I don't think any of us ranked the speakers in exactly the same order. Still, the results were very close.
We evaluated each pair of speakers based on the following criteria:
* Treble
* Bass
* Soundstage (was the entire presentation of the music open, with instruments in the right place)
* Decay (realism of the decay on instruments like cymbals and guitar strings)
* Imaging (did instruments sounds cohesive and seem to be clear and well defined)
* Goosebumposity (a subjective term referring to the overall level of "engagement" the speakers relayed)
We used excerpts from three songs to put each speaker through its paces:
Peter Gabriel: "Shaking the Tree" (from the remastered Shaking the Tree: 16 Golden Greats)
Cassandra Wilson: "Strange Fruit" (from New Moon Daughter)
Jewel: "Stephenville TX (Live)" (from Instant Live Toronto 07/17/2004)
Why did we choose these three? Well, they are all tracks that we're familiar with, so we know how they're supposed to sound. Also, they each bring something different to the table: the Gabriel track has wonderful drum bass, the Wilson track has superb guitar, string bass, and vocals, and the Jewel track is live which conveys a more accurate reproduction of how music is supposed to sound when it's not mixed in a studio.
On to the results from (in my humble opinion) best on down (based on a 1-10 point scale in which a number was given in each category listed above and then averaged together for a final numeric result):
#1 Pinnacle PN70 / 8.0 Points
These speakers surprised everyone! They sounded great for speakers nearly two decades old. The bass was tight and controlled, there was no sibilance present in female vocals and the instrument separation was superb. Everyone had great things to say about these. And to think you can pick up a used pair of these for under $300! They're a steal.
#2 Polk LSi7 and Polk RTI-6 / 7.75 Points (tie)
Most of the people present own Polk speakers in one form or another. I run the LSi7s' big brothers (LSi9s) in my office system. Most of us really like the way Polk builds their speakers so it's no surprise that these ended up near the top. The LSi7s in particular are wonderful speakers for the money. The RTI-6s had just enough sibilance to them to make you wince every now and again.
#3 JBL L19 / 7.5 Points
These were speakers Aaron brought to the meet and I've not had much experience with JBL speakers. The bass was the best of the bunch and it stayed strong in all the other categories as well.
#4 Polk 5B and Polk RTI-38 / 7.25 Points (tie)
Again, considering most of us met on a Polk speaker bulletin board, there was no shortage of Polk speakers to compare. Others put the 5Bs above or equal to the LSi7s, but they were just a little too laid back for me. They are still excellent speakers which can be picked up used for $75!
#5 Paradigm Reference 20v3 / 7 Points
Doug rated these at the top of his list, and it's not hard to figure out why. They do many things very well. They seemed a little bloated and veiled to my ears compared to the others, but it is still a great contender.
#6 AV123 ELT-525 / 6.75 Points
We really had two classes of speakers in this shootout and it's not really fair to compare a full bookshelf speaker like the Pinnacle to a mini monitor like the ELT-525. The former is almost always going to sound better because it can reproduce a larger musical range. But, as far as mini monitors go, these blew the pants off everything else. Aaron had done some upgrading to the speakers (new wire, and a few other mods) so they weren't bone stock, but man what a great pair of speakers for a small space!
#7 Epos ELS-3 / 6 Points
I have heard these little speakers on at least three other occasions and they never disappoint. Again, it's not really fair to compare them to a fuller range speaker, but if you an extra $200 and need speakers for a smaller room, these are a great choice. Very accurate and forward presentation.
#8 Boston Acoustic A-60 / 5.5 Points
These were a little anemic when it came to bass and bright in the higher areas. Overall I felt like the sound was thin and not very engaging.
#9 AV123 Mini Monitor / 5 Points
These had some upgrades done to them (I believe Doug replaced the caps) but they didn't really reach out and grab me. The bass was muddy and instruments like cymbals and guitar strings didn't have realistic decay. Not my first choice.
#10 Franken Acoustics / 4 Points:
This is a pair of speakers Aaron threw in for fun. They enclosures say Boston Acoustics A-40, but nothing inside them is original. Different wiring, tweeters, woofers, foam, etc. In other words, they are an amalgam of parts Aaron had lying around. They sounded, um, awful. Jewel's voice nearly made our ears bleed because of the shrill brightness. No bass, no imaging, and no soundstage. I'm pretty sure Aaron is never hooking these up again!
So, that's my review! Pics of the meet will follow...
First of all, I can't speak for everyone in RAS group with these results. All of us agreed on most of the speakers, but each of us have a particular sound we're looking for when it comes to musical reproduction. Because of this, I don't think any of us ranked the speakers in exactly the same order. Still, the results were very close.
We evaluated each pair of speakers based on the following criteria:
* Treble
* Bass
* Soundstage (was the entire presentation of the music open, with instruments in the right place)
* Decay (realism of the decay on instruments like cymbals and guitar strings)
* Imaging (did instruments sounds cohesive and seem to be clear and well defined)
* Goosebumposity (a subjective term referring to the overall level of "engagement" the speakers relayed)
We used excerpts from three songs to put each speaker through its paces:
Peter Gabriel: "Shaking the Tree" (from the remastered Shaking the Tree: 16 Golden Greats)
Cassandra Wilson: "Strange Fruit" (from New Moon Daughter)
Jewel: "Stephenville TX (Live)" (from Instant Live Toronto 07/17/2004)
Why did we choose these three? Well, they are all tracks that we're familiar with, so we know how they're supposed to sound. Also, they each bring something different to the table: the Gabriel track has wonderful drum bass, the Wilson track has superb guitar, string bass, and vocals, and the Jewel track is live which conveys a more accurate reproduction of how music is supposed to sound when it's not mixed in a studio.
On to the results from (in my humble opinion) best on down (based on a 1-10 point scale in which a number was given in each category listed above and then averaged together for a final numeric result):
#1 Pinnacle PN70 / 8.0 Points
These speakers surprised everyone! They sounded great for speakers nearly two decades old. The bass was tight and controlled, there was no sibilance present in female vocals and the instrument separation was superb. Everyone had great things to say about these. And to think you can pick up a used pair of these for under $300! They're a steal.
#2 Polk LSi7 and Polk RTI-6 / 7.75 Points (tie)
Most of the people present own Polk speakers in one form or another. I run the LSi7s' big brothers (LSi9s) in my office system. Most of us really like the way Polk builds their speakers so it's no surprise that these ended up near the top. The LSi7s in particular are wonderful speakers for the money. The RTI-6s had just enough sibilance to them to make you wince every now and again.
#3 JBL L19 / 7.5 Points
These were speakers Aaron brought to the meet and I've not had much experience with JBL speakers. The bass was the best of the bunch and it stayed strong in all the other categories as well.
#4 Polk 5B and Polk RTI-38 / 7.25 Points (tie)
Again, considering most of us met on a Polk speaker bulletin board, there was no shortage of Polk speakers to compare. Others put the 5Bs above or equal to the LSi7s, but they were just a little too laid back for me. They are still excellent speakers which can be picked up used for $75!
#5 Paradigm Reference 20v3 / 7 Points
Doug rated these at the top of his list, and it's not hard to figure out why. They do many things very well. They seemed a little bloated and veiled to my ears compared to the others, but it is still a great contender.
#6 AV123 ELT-525 / 6.75 Points
We really had two classes of speakers in this shootout and it's not really fair to compare a full bookshelf speaker like the Pinnacle to a mini monitor like the ELT-525. The former is almost always going to sound better because it can reproduce a larger musical range. But, as far as mini monitors go, these blew the pants off everything else. Aaron had done some upgrading to the speakers (new wire, and a few other mods) so they weren't bone stock, but man what a great pair of speakers for a small space!
#7 Epos ELS-3 / 6 Points
I have heard these little speakers on at least three other occasions and they never disappoint. Again, it's not really fair to compare them to a fuller range speaker, but if you an extra $200 and need speakers for a smaller room, these are a great choice. Very accurate and forward presentation.
#8 Boston Acoustic A-60 / 5.5 Points
These were a little anemic when it came to bass and bright in the higher areas. Overall I felt like the sound was thin and not very engaging.
#9 AV123 Mini Monitor / 5 Points
These had some upgrades done to them (I believe Doug replaced the caps) but they didn't really reach out and grab me. The bass was muddy and instruments like cymbals and guitar strings didn't have realistic decay. Not my first choice.
#10 Franken Acoustics / 4 Points:
This is a pair of speakers Aaron threw in for fun. They enclosures say Boston Acoustics A-40, but nothing inside them is original. Different wiring, tweeters, woofers, foam, etc. In other words, they are an amalgam of parts Aaron had lying around. They sounded, um, awful. Jewel's voice nearly made our ears bleed because of the shrill brightness. No bass, no imaging, and no soundstage. I'm pretty sure Aaron is never hooking these up again!
So, that's my review! Pics of the meet will follow...
/COLOR] [U][URL="http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=68366"][COLOR="Blue"]My Rigs[/U][/COLOR][/URL] [COLOR="Red" Balanced Audio Technology | Revel | Dodd | Monarchy | PS Audio | MIT | Polk | Etc.
Post edited by blakeh on
Comments
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Saw the post on FB, way to go guys!Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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Some photos.../COLOR] [U][URL="http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=68366"][COLOR="Blue"]My Rigs[/U][/COLOR][/URL] [COLOR="Red" Balanced Audio Technology | Revel | Dodd | Monarchy | PS Audio | MIT | Polk | Etc.
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For some reason I can't get YouTube video to embed, so here is a link to some footage from the meet:
RAS Meet Footage (click link)/COLOR] [U][URL="http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=68366"][COLOR="Blue"]My Rigs[/U][/COLOR][/URL] [COLOR="Red" Balanced Audio Technology | Revel | Dodd | Monarchy | PS Audio | MIT | Polk | Etc. -
It was a very fun afternoon! It also proves that audio is very subjective. My ranking of the speakers is different than Blakes, and it's not right or wrong, we just all hear differently and value different characteristics in how speakers reproduce music.
Great get together and thanks to Aaron for hosting. If you're not having audio meets in your area, start!!!!! You will learn and experience more by doing this than you ever can by visiting the few audio stores that exist.DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Yes, it was a great afternoon! +1 to Doug's comments. It would get real boring if we all agreed on everything. Thanks to Aaron for hosting, and to Doug for bringing a pickup load of gear to the meet.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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great post. I really need to listen to some of them 7s
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I don't see any soda cans on top of the speakers. Don't you know you have to have a soda can on top!?!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Rich (SCompRacer), Doug (dkg999), Aaron (All212), Brock (heiney9), and I (blakeh) all got together to compare a bunch of mini/bookshelf speakers. Aaron was the gracious host and we managed to fit in some great conversation, delicious food, and even some decent evaluation of speakers!
What...no alcohol?
Obviously a bogus shootout. And you guys call yourselves Polkies :rolleyes: 2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
Good writeup ...but of course you're completely wrong on the order you put them in. :rolleyes:
That was fun -here's what I had...
Very Small speakers:
#1 - Epos ELS-3: Bit of a mid range "hump" but otherwise very nice.
#2 - AV-123 ELT-525 (Aaron 2nd Mod): I took out the bottom "stuffing" of these, also replaced the wiring with VampireWire 18g and added a Diflex acoustic panel to the bottom to help dampen the bass, ClarityCap PX caps and Mills resistors. It seemed to work.
#3 - AV-123 ELT-525 (Doug): These were the first set I modded. They got ClarityCap ESA caps and Mlls resistors but everything else left the same. I thought the treble a bit more extended but these were borderline fatigueing.
#4 - Boston Acoustic A40 FrankenCoustics: In a word - HORRIBLE! Back to the drawing board with these. By far the worst sounding speakers of any we listened to today. If you enjoy pain I'll sell 'em to you cheap!
Small speakers:
#1 - Paradigm Reference 20v3: Soft bass but nice - no mid range bump.
#2 - Polk LSI-7: Very smooth, sound was "appropriate" across the entire spectrum.
#3 - Polk RTI-6 (crossovers upgraded): - a bit of sibilance in the treble - tweeters come close to being harsh.
#4 - Boston Acoustic A60 (crossovers upgraded, sound damping in the cabinet) - less bass and the paper tweeters were harsher than others here. Overall nice even frequency response - no mid or upper bass hump.
#5 - Polk RTI-38: A bit bass boomy, mid range hump.
Large Bookshelf:
#1 - Pinnacle PN70: Hard to believe but these are some very nice sounding speakers!
#2 - Polk 5B: Forward mid range and a bit light in bass. Almost fatigueing.
#3 - JBL L19 (crossovers upgraded): If the tweeters weren't borderline sibilant these would have bested the Polk 5B's. Tweeters are harsh but the rest of the response was very nice.
Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
Nice review. Looks like a fun time, you need more food. If you want, I can post a copy of the chicken wing shoot-out that Polk Audio Engineering did and was published in the Baltimore Sun. :cool:
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Cassandra Wilson's version of strange fruit can really tell you what a speaker
can and can't do."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
It was a fun time guys, sorry I had to leave a little early. It was nice to get my ears on some other bookshelf speakers. The surprises of the day were the Pinnacle's and modded JBL's. It's been a long time since I've heard a pair of "classic" era JBL's and I must say they held their own.
The rest of the speakers I was more familiar with, but the modded RTi 6 I could live with easily w/no complaints.
All in all a great day with a great group of audio nerds.............er, I mean nuts.
Thanks to Aaron for hosting and to Rich for driving in.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
nap - we had plenty of food and a nice selection of beer!DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
nap wrote:Nice review. Looks like a fun time, you need more food. If you want, I can post a copy of the chicken wing shoot-out that Polk Audio Engineering did and was published in the Baltimore Sun. :cool:
That should be an interesting read..."Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
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Nice write up.
That looked like a lot of fun.I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
Great review, thanks.
cubdogShuguang Classic S8MK
Emotiva XDA-2
Bel Canto M300 mono blocks
Bel Canto DAC 1.5
Squeezebox Touch
Sony SS-M7
A/D/S L710 -
nap - we had plenty of food and a nice selection of beer!
+1. All of the RAS guys provide a nice spread of food and drink, including desert, at these events.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Excellent bookcase speaker shootout guys! Great pics too, I may have to check around for a used pair of the Pinnacle PN70's
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RAS rocks! First class guys! Good to see you fellas enjoying yourselves. I am going to make my way to Chicago this year. One way or another.
Regards,Carl -
RAS rocks! First class guys! Good to see you fellas enjoying yourselves. I am going to make my way to Chicago this year. One way or another.
Regards,
Fantastic work gents! -
Nice writeup, Blake et al. Looks like a good time. Would've liked to have added my NHT 1.3A to your lineup. It'd be neat to get my ears on several versions back-to-back!
Are you accepting applications to RAS? I'm housebroken!
JayJay
SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0 -
Are you accepting applications to RAS? I'm housebroken!
Housebroke is one of the many requirements.
:biggrin: You don't live far from me. We can get together some weekend and start the application process.:biggrin:
Seriously, if you want to hook up some weekend at my place, let me know.Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
I am going to make my way to Chicago this year.
That would be most excellent!:cool:Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
It is :eek:?
Don't review my application... :redface:
And don't turn your couch cushons over...seriously...don't.SCompRacer wrote: »Housebroke is one of the many requirements.:biggrin: You don't live far from me. We can get together some weekend and start the application process.:biggrin:
Seriously, if you want to hook up some weekend at my place, let me know.Aaron
Enabler Extraordinaire -
I still have nightmares from the application process :eek:DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
Can you tell me the difference between a Pinnacle PN70 and a PN8?
I owned a pair or two of the PN8's. Very impressive enough for me to have started collecting Pinnacles and I still have a nice Pinnacle speaker collection today.Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Having 2nd thoughts....
:biggrin:
Seriously, that'd be cool, Rich. I think we may have tossed that idea around a couple of years ago (was it you who was familiar with John's Buffet in Winfield?). This time around I'll stay in touch and we'll try to find a good date.
JayJay
SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0 -
I still have nightmares from the application process :eek:
This is the really scary part. He's the CHARTER member!!:eek::biggrin: -
Very cool! Thanks for sharing - I like reading shootouts like this - it gives me at least some bearing when considering any moves or upgrades.
I was surprised to read that the LSi7s and RTi6s tied.
Was curious to read also that the RTi6s had some criticism on the sibilance - which begs the question - what did they do otherwise that would put them in a tie with the LSi7s?
Thanks!
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
![[Deleted User]](https://w2.vanillicon.com/2f1750dcdda3cf49f1655cb299e53ec8_100.png)
