Heavy gauge speaker wire versus ACD technology
Comments
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If y'all wouldn't mind taking a break from trolling the troll, I have a serious question. What would make two wires sound differently other than differences in frequency response? Tonyb refers to soundstage, imaging, etc. above, but I don't understand how those would change without it being reflected in the frequency response curves.
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We can summarize all the results by plotting the SPL differences. From all measurements I subtract the baseline AR 12 Gauge measurement. Here are the results:
Summary: because people tend to be more sensitive to response irregularities (and to peak in the FR more than troughs), the influence of the ACR may in fact be more noticeable than using the demonstrably "inadequate" long run of 16 gauge wire. In fact, the 16 gauge wire, because it leaves the low-frequencies unaltered (the LF impedance is quite high -- about 8 Ohms) while ever-so-slightly attenuating the HF, will result in a "softer" presentation that the 12 gauge AR. or short run of 16 gauge. This may be preferable in an active room.
dude, thats awesome. great study. did you do this at your house? how are the acoustics in the room? lots of echos or f*cking epic movie theater?
the ACR has obvious affects on SPL and OBVIOUSLY as your graph states SQ. i like you. you can f*c* my meth addicted sister
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
The AR wire uses pins and the Dayton wire uses bananas. No difference.silvertuner wrote: »wouldnt this be better done without banana connectors to affect the overall quality of the signal sent to the speaker?
None of this matters. We are looking at the effects of the wire.silvertuner wrote: »also, are said speakers broken in, wires broken in, and what will be driving these speakers? what interconnects? -
The AR wire uses pins and the Dayton wire uses bananas. No difference.
None of this matters. We are looking at the effects of the wire.
how can you test the affects of the wires if there are other variables? makes no sense. if bananas are interfering with the ability of your walmart avr to send a quality signal thru the daytons, and you are using high end broke-in AR's with pins then there will be a significant difference.
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
Yes and yes.Holy ****, Man! You sure you built Zaph speaker? Your FR graph is measured, I supposed?
Its the Vifa DQ25. Its has rough top end. Here is Zaph's 1/2-space measurement of the DQ25:What's with the 10db dip in Pic 1 from Post # 4?
Those frequencies are largely inaudible, and the tradeoff is that you get a tweeter that is very inexpensive, has very low linear distortion (flat SPL) and very low nonlinear distortion. Its a better tweeter than what many "audiophiles" paid a small fortune for. -
Yes and yes.
Its the Vifa DQ25. Its has rough top end. Here is Zaph's 1/2-space
Those frequencies are largely inaudible, and the tradeoff is that you get a tweeter that is very inexpensive, has very low linear distortion (flat SPL) and very low nonlinear distortion. Its a better tweeter than what many "audiophiles" paid a small fortune for.
hey, i may have an audio addiction, but i didnt pay a fortune for tweeters.
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
SPL measures the only thing that your ears do: pressure. How exactly are things like "soundstage tone" supposed to change without changing the actual pressure that impinges on your ear? The answer is that if the pressure is the same, the sound is the same. Its that simple.....and the point is what exactly ? Measurements for SPL's ? That tells me alot about sound quality. What good is spl's in respect to cable ? I mean if spl is what your after, get some klipsch and home depot 14 ga. and be done. Your ears may not thank you however. Find me a tool, besides ones own ears, that can measure soundstage,tone, imaging, then we'll talk.
To be clear, what these measurements don't show are off-axis results, which influence the so-called power response. However, its the details of the crossover slopes and driver spacing (things that are held fixed in this test) that affect the power response, so these simply cannot change in the present case if the on-axis SPL does not change. -
As I said its the DQ25, and its a dip, which at those high frequencies amounts to nothing. Obviously, dips and peaks in 10K-20K range are not affected by the crossover (except for the overall padding level).All joking aside, I think you have serious issue with that FR Graph from Post 4.
You got wide swings (between 5dB peaks and 10dB dibs in the 10KHz-20KHz regions). It's scary! Double check your speaker design or XO for that matter.
The benefit is a flat response (only +/- 2dB) in the critical range 1kHz to 10kHz. The Polk SDA2b only manages +/- 5dB in this range (I've measured that, too). This explains why the ZMV5 blows the SDA2B out of the water when it comes to vocals and imaging. And that's not my opinion, that was the consensus at a speaker audition this summer. -
Yes and yes.
Its the Vifa DQ25. Its has rough top end. Here is Zaph's 1/2-space measurement of the DQ25:
Those frequencies are largely inaudible, and the tradeoff is that you get a tweeter that is very inexpensive, has very low linear distortion (flat SPL) and very low nonlinear distortion. Its a better tweeter than what many "audiophiles" paid a small fortune for.
Ok! So, Zaph made really cheap attempt for the el chepo. And I was much surprised so I run over to Zaph site to look at the thread about the ZMV5.
Yes, that tweeter got pretty rough FR and should never be used for el cheapo version. Anyway, it's his Biz and not mine.
But the Pic 1 in your Post 4 is not the same as the Pics you posted later. I accept that the frequencies above 20KHz or even 18KHz is (largely) inaudible.
But the Pic 1 in your Post 4 seems to be between 10KHz and 20KHz. I suggest it's something you need to take a look at. It's nowhere similar to what Zaph has designed the speaker. 10dB dibs and 5dB gains and then dibs again under 20KHz, you got really a nasty highs coming from that speaker.
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
And No, you are measuring the wrong thing again! What you are doing is the AC interaction (like speaker impedance, LCR) of different wires with your speakers.
You can use HP Z meter (LCR meter) to measure more precise wire parameters. There is DC parameters and AC parameters. And you only have the AC parameters to 20KHz which hardly says anything about a wire.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
The soda can affects the sound by diffraction of the sound waves. This is a very well-known effect. The shape of the baffle, whether the edges are rounded or chamfered, also affects the diffraction signature. Polk engineers model this diffraction effect when designing a speaker. Why do you think some manufacturers put felt around the tweeter -- its an attempt to tailor the diffraction signature.In the past people have posted that placing weight on top of the speaker changes the sound.
I have 2 lb paving blocks on top of my LSi15s in the HT. However, other than my ears, I do not have any other type of measuring device, but they did seem to clear up the sound a bit. Heavier weight seemed to smother it.
My personal feeling is that since speakers make sound by vibrating the weights help absorb/prevent cabinet vibrations which would interact with the speaker vibrations, and cause a tiny bit of distortion. Then again, as the 'experts' say, maybe I am just imagining it.
My source of esoteric tweaks, Mapleshade, naturally recommends brass weights for speakers, and recommends against using rock, but says it is better than nothing. I guess I need to upgrade some day. -
There is a lot to be learned from these plots, and it took an afternoon of work, so calling me a troll at this point is pretty weak. That aside, you have asked the key question which has an obvious but difficult-to-swallow answer: none.intangible wrote: »If y'all wouldn't mind taking a break from trolling the troll, I have a serious question. What would make two wires sound differently other than differences in frequency response? Tonyb refers to soundstage, imaging, etc. above, but I don't understand how those would change without it being reflected in the frequency response curves. -
what program did you use for this stuff? what was the cable made of that you used? what OS are you using? bc it looks like paint on windows millenium. again, you are my hero and i wish to model my life exactly as you have lived yours. i am now moving to san diego with all the other homo's out there to join you
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
Excellent question.silvertuner wrote: »dude, thats awesome. great study. did you do this at your house? how are the acoustics in the room? lots of echos or f*cking epic movie theater?
The measurements are gated at 4.5ms, which limits the validity to above a few hundred Hz. Beyond 1kHz, reflections don't have time to hit the microphone before the measurement system is "done". So, what you see in the 1kHz to 10kHz window is not at all affected by acoustics.
Measuring the complete FR response (from 10Hz to 20kHz) is much more difficult because you have to splice near and far-field responses to get around the far-field measurement "wall" at about 300Hz. -
your computer is faster than the speed of sound? dude thats epic. refer to my previous post for further positive remarks. mine takes forever to do anything. need to upgrade the RAM
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
Ok! So, Zaph made really cheap attempt for the el chepo. And I was much surprised so I run over to Zaph site to look at the thread about the ZMV5.
Yes, that tweeter got pretty rough FR and should never be used for el cheapo version. Anyway, it's his Biz and not mine.
But the Pic 1 in your Post 4 is not the same as the Pics you posted later. I accept that the frequencies above 20KHz or even 18KHz is (largely) inaudible.
But the Pic 1 in your Post 4 seems to be between 10KHz and 20KHz. I suggest it's something you need to take a look at. It's nowhere similar to what Zaph has designed the speaker. 10dB dibs and 5dB gains and then dibs again under 20KHz, you got really a nasty highs coming from that speaker.
I suspect this looks like a deeper dip than Zaph's results because of averaging; IIRC I used only 1/24 octave averaging of the MLS signal (which is essentially no averaging). Zaph looks like he used 1/6 or something. In any case its really not an issue. A dip at 15kHz is really not a problem. Says the designer:
The tweeter has a little raggedness at the top of the top octave, however it will be inaudible, even for those with young ears. This is because a deviation from flat response becomes less objectionable closer to the limits of audibility. It's the same concept that allows us to accept a typical system's ragged bass response in-room. -
I don't care to get into a conversation that is both over my head and too ridiculous to participate in but I must say this... There's not an electronic device on this planet that ISN'T faster than the speed of sound....it is however real close to the speed of electricity. Just my .02.. Please carry on.:biggrin:Too much **** to list....
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I don't care to get into a conversation that is both over my head and too ridiculous to participate in but I must say this... There's not an electronic device on this planet that ISN'T faster than the speed of sound....it is however real close to the speed of electricity. Just my .02.. Please carry on.:biggrin:
my 2004 model laptop isnt faster than the speed of electricity. pile of crap
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
This is a very odd comment. You can see clearly from the "Difference Comparison" plot that the wire acts like a pure DC resistance. Look at the magenta curve -- it shows that the SPL is reduced uniformly, exactly what would happen if a tiny series (DC) resistance was placed between the amplifier and speakers. The offset increases with frequency because the ZMV5 impedance decreases with frequency.And No, you are measuring the wrong thing again! What you are doing is the AC interaction (like speaker impedance, LCR) of different wires with your speakers.
You can use HP Z meter (LCR meter) to measure more precise wire parameters. There is DC parameters and AC parameters. And you only have the AC parameters to 20KHz which hardly says anything about a wire. -
If you ask your parents I'm sure they'd be happy to buy you a bus ticket.silvertuner wrote: »what program did you use for this stuff? what was the cable made of that you used? what OS are you using? bc it looks like paint on windows millenium. again, you are my hero and i wish to model my life exactly as you have lived yours. i am now moving to san diego with all the other homo's out there to join you -
The soda can affects the sound by diffraction of the sound waves.
That does not make any sense based on your other statements. Since the can is on top of the speaker the only sound waves hitting it will be reflected. Yet you say your measurements are so fast they occur before any reflections make it back to the speaker.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
If you ask your parents I'm sure they'd be happy to buy you a bus ticket.
i guess if they were alive i could do that
some cheap free sony speakers
psw125
denon 1610
3.1 channel because i hate cables ran across the living room like that -
I really don't know who I'm more embarrassed for."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I suspect this looks like a deeper dip than Zaph's results because of averaging; IIRC I used only 1/24 octave averaging of the MLS signal (which is essentially no averaging). Zaph looks like he used 1/6 or something. In any case its really not an issue. A dip at 15kHz is really not a problem. Says the designer:
The tweeter has a little raggedness at the top of the top octave, however it will be inaudible, even for those with young ears. This is because a deviation from flat response becomes less objectionable closer to the limits of audibility. It's the same concept that allows us to accept a typical system's ragged bass response in-room.
Ok! Carry on with quoting what other people says. You clearly have no idea.This is a very odd comment. You can see clearly from the "Difference Comparison" plot that the wire acts like a pure DC resistance. Look at the magenta curve -- it shows that the SPL is reduced uniformly, exactly what would happen if a tiny series (DC) resistance was placed between the amplifier and speakers. The offset increases with frequency because the ZMV5 impedance decreases with frequency.
It's won't be too odd if you understands a piece of wire long enough has all impedance and reactive to load with AC signals.
What the graphs show is the power loss from different wires due to different materials and thickness of wire you used. Nothing More!
You are not measuring anything other than Z (in the order of LCR) of wire. Once again, like I said, you hit the wrong button. And of coz, Z is the AC equipment of R in DC.
Carry on with your research!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Baffle dramatically affects sound: In this experiment, the Pepsi can actually becomes part of the front baffle, and every designer knows that the baffle shape dramatically affects the sound, in particular in the vicinity of 1.5kHz (for an 8 inch wide baffle). The crossover actually addresses a huge SPL dip in this range induced by the baffle.That does not make any sense based on your other statements. Since the can is on top of the speaker the only sound waves hitting it will be reflected. Yet you say your measurements are so fast they occur before any reflections make it back to the speaker.
The effect of room reflections: But what about reflections from stuff other than the baffle? Well, first consider that to make measurements of this sort, you need to determine the "reflection-free window". If you mount a speaker on a stand 1m above the floor, and put the mic at a distance of 1m from the speaker, then the first reflection you have to worry about is the bounce from the floor. This wave travels
2*sqrt(1+0.25^2)=2.3m,
whereas the "direct" wave travels only 1m. The difference, 1.3m, is used to compute the reflection-free window:
time = 1.3m/(343m/s) = 0.0038s = 3.8ms
So, with a reflection-free window of 3.8ms, we can get sensible frequency data down to f=1/0.0038= 263Hz. In reality, with this window, I probably wouldn't trust the data below about 300Hz.
Making sense of soda-can diffraction: The distance from the tweeter cone to the can, however, was approximately 10cm. So, in an extremely crude sense there will be a delay of about 0.1/343=0.3ms from the diffracted wave, which will show up at f=1/0.0003=3.3kHz. If you refer to the "Difference comparison" plot, you will see that this is EXACTLY where the diffraction effect is maximized. -
I have absolutely no clue what you are getting at. Sorry.What the graphs show is the power loss from different wires due to different materials and thickness of wire you used. Nothing More!
You are not measuring anything other than Z (in the order of LCR) of wire. Once again, like I said, you hit the wrong button. And of coz, Z is the AC equipment of R in DC. -
I guess you're an even sadder fellow than I imagined.silvertuner wrote: »i guess if they were alive i could do that -
Troll:use your ears.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
From http://www.zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html:Troll:use your ears.Ears cannot be trusted
Those who don't measure, don't know. Period. They can pretend they know, but rest assured they don't. The human ear, as it is connected to the human brain, is not very smart and easily fooled. If something is wrong with a speaker, people have a hard time telling what it is. Using ears only, the quality of a speaker can only be described in extremely subjective terms. Treble is often described as bright, dull, edgy, recessed, etc. Bass is often described as warm, boomy, deep, lean, tight, etc. But without any accurate basis of comparison, comments like that are meaningless. Don't even get me started by describing how many "veils have been lifted" from the music or how a speaker's "pace rhythm and timing" is affecting the sound. Those vague, meaningless statements are made by people who lack the proper technical vocabulary to describe a speaker's performance. In summary, a driver should be fully measured before a person is qualified to comment on the sound of that driver.
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From http://www.zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html:Ears cannot be trusted
Those who don't measure, don't know. Period. They can pretend they know, but rest assured they don't. The human ear, as it is connected to the human brain, is not very smart and easily fooled. If something is wrong with a speaker, people have a hard time telling what it is. Using ears only, the quality of a speaker can only be described in extremely subjective terms. Treble is often described as bright, dull, edgy, recessed, etc. Bass is often described as warm, boomy, deep, lean, tight, etc. But without any accurate basis of comparison, comments like that are meaningless. Don't even get me started by describing how many "veils have been lifted" from the music or how a speaker's "pace rhythm and timing" is affecting the sound. Those vague, meaningless statements are made by people who lack the proper technical vocabulary to describe a speaker's performance. In summary, a driver should be fully measured before a person is qualified to comment on the sound of that driver.
Jcandy, I don't know who you are or why you seem to rub believers the wrong way..not my business. I do know that a lot of people dont get your humor.. I found your article funny...and many of the hostile reactions puzzling.
