Polk RTi A9s, Power Thirsty or am I Crazy!?

SRTer

Well, I purchased a pair of Polk RTi A9's to replace my RTi8's which I sold. I originally had a Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH which sounded great on the RTi8's. Then, I got the upgrade itch for a receiver with 3D pass-through and more power for new speakers.

I sold the Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH (110w x 7) and purchased a Pioneer Elite SC-35 (140w x 7).

I will tell you this, it sounds much smoother and highly detailed specifically in the mid-range. However, the bass response (albeit better than RTi8's) is not what I had envisioned for the setup.

Therefore, I figure that I need more power. However, I running out of cash in this upgrade craziness and need expert opinion on the following.

What AMP's should I look at for the warmest, quality, and most economical sound?

Please meet these targets in your post and place a link to the item if you know a good place to purchase.


Off topic, I love the Pioneer Elite SC-35 but could it be the problem? I can't replace it now, but I still like to see what you all think. Also, I know all my settings are done right.

nooshinjohn

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1302803017&/Sunfire-symphonic-reference-2-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1302922730&/Krell-KAV-250a/3-3-channel-250

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1303234685&/Parasound-Halo-A-23-2-channel-

These are just a shot in the dark as we don't know your budget....

quadzilla

I don't really have an amp recommendation for you, but I will say that with my SC-05, I found my RTi12s to be rather harsh and overly bright and forward. When I went to external amps, that eventually smoothed out.

Toolfan66

If your going more for home theater and budget is low go with an Emotiva XPA-3 for new or go for a used amp with 3 or 5 channels many out there to choose from..

SRTer

Thanks for your help everyone.

I really want my setup to sound great with music. I think i will buy the amp soon.

Charlie Freak

Hmm, that Pioneer is not rubbish. Just out of curiousity, why do you think you need more power? Are you having trouble reaching adequate volume without the amp clipping? Adding more power is likely to have zero impact on the bass, since all decently made amps have a very flat frequency response.

I guess you've played around with the placement of the speakers? Did you try walking around the room and carefully listening if there is a spot where the bass is more satisfactory? Have you noticed if only certain bass notes seem weak, and others seem OK? If you have problems with standing waves in that spot no amount of power is going to solve that.

mdaudioguy

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

If your going more for home theater and budget is low go with an Emotiva XPA-3 for new or go for a used amp with 3 or 5 channels many out there to choose from..

SRTer wrote: »

I really want my setup to sound great with music. I think i will buy the amp soon.

Notice the recommendation was for an amp for HT. Since many people listen to their music with a somewhat more critical ear, this would probably not be a recommendation for someone who cares about their music. In this case, I'm thinking the brightness is only going to be amplified, not mitigated in the least. I would suggest you do some more reading here to find others with RTiA/Pio SC combos, and see their impressions.

mufsoman

My Rti 12's and SC07 sounded good. I added a 5 channel 200 wpc amp and the sound definitely changed. Not louder, but more clear and impactful. I did not get any more bass though, just more crisp bass. My SVS takes care of the bass

Toolfan66

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Notice the recommendation was for an amp for HT. Since many people listen to their music with a somewhat more critical ear, this would probably not be a recommendation for someone who cares about their music. In this case, I'm thinking the brightness is only going to be amplified, not mitigated in the least. I would suggest you do some more reading here to find others with RTiA/Pio SC combos, and see their impressions.

I am running a Pioneer SC-07 with an Emotiva XPA-3, and it works just fine for my application...:rolleyes: The A9's are bright there is no way around it.. Tubes tame them a little but every SS I have used they are still bright..

leroyjr1

mufsoman wrote: »

My Rti 12's and SC07 sounded good. I added a 5 channel 200 wpc amp and the sound definitely changed. Not louder, but more clear and impactful. I did not get any more bass though, just more crisp bass. My SVS takes care of the bass

Try them on a pre amp and watch the bass come alive. For me the Pioneers EQ made them brighter. I've always ran mcacc and turned off the EQ with better results. They're less bright. Also Try the X-Curve in the Pioneers menu. That's helps out big time with taking the edge off the tweeters.

SRTer

Charlie Freak wrote: »

Hmm, that Pioneer is not rubbish. Just out of curiousity, why do you think you need more power? Are you having trouble reaching adequate volume without the amp clipping? Adding more power is likely to have zero impact on the bass, since all decently made amps have a very flat frequency response.

I guess you've played around with the placement of the speakers? Did you try walking around the room and carefully listening if there is a spot where the bass is more satisfactory? Have you noticed if only certain bass notes seem weak, and others seem OK? If you have problems with standing waves in that spot no amount of power is going to solve that.

Thanks for you reply,

No, the amp is not cliping. However, i have only played the Elite SC-35 with RTi A9's up to -9db to -7db on music playing the Pure Direct mode.

Pure Direct mode pretty much strips processing down nearly nothing than what is needed to decode the Apple Lossless Tracks for my iPhone 4. You pretty much hear the Elite DAC, D-class amp, wires (bi-wired fronts), aand RTi A9's.

As far as speaker placement. I have move them around until my back was tired (75 pounds each). I have measured than properly placed them around my TV. 12 inch from the TV stand and and about 15 inches from the wall. The bass was better near the wall.

The Pionner Elite SC-35 program adjusts for the standing waves. In Direct mode, the Standing Wave attenuates is applied base of what the mic and software calculates. In Pure Direct, all such EQ, Standing Wave, Echo, ect is disabled.

I will tell you this, I touched all the 7 inch low freq drivers at -9db and they where not moving as far as one would exspect for bass driver move. My RTi8's played like they wanted to jump out the box with the P VSX-23TXH (110w x 7). There was enough bass to enjoy them without the sub.

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Try them on a pre amp and watch the bass come alive. For me the Pioneers EQ made them brighter. I've always ran mcacc and turned off the EQ with better results. They're less bright. Also Try the X-Curve in the Pioneers menu. That's helps out big time with taking the edge off the tweeters.

I think you mght beon to something.

I'll be back.

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Try them on a pre amp and watch the bass come alive. For me the Pioneers EQ made them brighter. I've always ran mcacc and turned off the EQ with better results. They're less bright. Also Try the X-Curve in the Pioneers menu. That's helps out big time with taking the edge off the tweeters.

Ok folks, I have it figured out now. Thanks to all off you.

Ok, the MCACC which configures everything for you is great. However, it's important to still have a ear for what you like and know how to adjust things to your liking.

Charlie Freak and leroyjr1, thank you so much!!!!!

Reading your post (both of you) it finally came to me that,

And I know some of you audiophile purist will be against this but??

I found that I should simply adjust the SC-35. There is plenty bass to be found in the EQ.

The MCACC program did listen to the RTi A9?s and never made an adjustment higher than +0.5 or lower than -0.5. This seems to tell me that the SC-35 does not calculate that much equalization is need to flatten the RTi A9?s, thus the RTi A9 play the full range of sound decently. Nevertheless, I want to add more bass and attenuate some of the higher freqs.

The SC-35 EQ offers adjustment in 9 frequency ranges. (I wish there was more increments:frown:)

So I chose the 63Hz slider and added +6.5
Chose the 125Hz slider and added +2.5
Chose the 250Hz slider and added +0.5

I didn?t add much in the 125Hz range because the RTi A9?s crossover is set to 120Hz 12dB/octave high pass, which I feel, is bit low to play the two 5.25 inch (each) mid-range speakers. They vibrated plenty before the addition of the tweaks I made to the system in contrast to the three 7 inches woofers which seem to just take a break.

leroyjr1, thank you again because you brought the X-Curve function which attenuates the high frequencies greater than and equal 2 kHz.

Since its midnight and I have renters, I will adjust that part tomorrow morning which can bring the treble down a notch if needed now that the bass is where I want it to be.

Right now, I'm well pleased soo
The Pioneer Elite SC-35 stays without an amp for now.

To be continued?

mdaudioguy

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I am running a Pioneer SC-07 with an Emotiva XPA-3, and it works just fine for my application...:rolleyes: The A9's are bright there is no way around it.. Tubes tame them a little but every SS I have used they are still bright..

We both know, however, that the place to start in attempting to introduce a warmer sound would be further back in the chain. For me, this occurred when I swapped a Yamaha RX-V863 for my HK AVR 254. Changing SS amps didn't have so much effect. Of course, none of that should be necessary now, since the OP has found a solution that works for him.

quadzilla

SRTer wrote: »

Ok folks, I have it figured out now. Thanks to all off you.

Ok, the MCACC which configures everything for you is great. However, it's important to still have a ear for what you like and know how to adjust things to your liking.

Charlie Freak and leroyjr1, thank you so much!!!!!

Reading your post (both of you) it finally came to me that,

And I know some of you audiophile purist will be against this but??

I found that I should simply adjust the SC-35. There is plenty bass to be found in the EQ.

The MCACC program did listen to the RTi A9?s and never made an adjustment higher than +0.5 or lower than -0.5. This seems to tell me that the SC-35 does not calculate that much equalization is need to flatten the RTi A9?s, thus the RTi A9 play the full range of sound decently. Nevertheless, I want to add more bass and attenuate some of the higher freqs.

The SC-35 EQ offers adjustment in 9 frequency ranges. (I wish there was more increments:frown:)

So I chose the 63Hz slider and added +6.5
Chose the 125Hz slider and added +2.5
Chose the 250Hz slider and added +0.5

I didn?t add much in the 125Hz range because the RTi A9?s crossover is set to 120Hz 12dB/octave high pass, which I feel, is bit low to play the two 5.25 inch (each) mid-range speakers. They vibrated plenty before the addition of the tweaks I made to the system in contrast to the three 7 inches woofers which seem to just take a break.

leroyjr1, thank you again because you brought the X-Curve function which attenuates the high frequencies greater than and equal 2 kHz.

Since its midnight and I have renters, I will adjust that part tomorrow morning which can bring the treble down a notch if needed now that the bass is where I want it to be.

Right now, I'm well pleased soo
The Pioneer Elite SC-35 stays without an amp for now.

To be continued?

Glad you're happy with it. I'd tried something similar, but noticed that in rolling off the highs, I lost a lot of "sparkle" or whatever term you want to use for high frequency extension, even when just setting the THX roll-off to .5 db.

Something I'd forgotten about though, is that the default MCACC eq curve is for phase. You might try running a full MCACC calibration, which should give you 3 optimizations: phase, frequency response, and flat to front mains. Try selecting the frequency response option. I see the same thing on my SC-05 on phase, but frequency response shows considerable variation between the two channels, and seems to add more bass. You could also try running a source in direct analog mode, which bypasses all the MCACC stuff altogether, and see if the sound is more pleasing that way. The other thing to keep in mind is that MCACC actually goes for "correct", which is basically flat, EQ response. Instead of using those controls, you also have access to a menu with tone controls. Yes, good old bass and treble knobs. I've forgotten how to get into it off the top of my head, but check the manual. It tells you. If you can find it, let me know and I'll go find it again on mine and give you instructions on how to get into that menu.

But still, on my set up, I had to go to external amps to really get something close to the sound I was after. So I still think the RTi series, especially the 12s/A9s, are freakishly power hungry beasts of speakers.

olilugo

SRTer wrote: »

Ok folks, I have it figured out now. Thanks to all off you.

Ok, the MCACC which configures everything for you is great. However, it's important to still have a ear for what you like and know how to adjust things to your liking.

Charlie Freak and leroyjr1, thank you so much!!!!!

Reading your post (both of you) it finally came to me that,

And I know some of you audiophile purist will be against this but??

I found that I should simply adjust the SC-35. There is plenty bass to be found in the EQ.

The MCACC program did listen to the RTi A9?s and never made an adjustment higher than +0.5 or lower than -0.5. This seems to tell me that the SC-35 does not calculate that much equalization is need to flatten the RTi A9?s, thus the RTi A9 play the full range of sound decently. Nevertheless, I want to add more bass and attenuate some of the higher freqs.

The SC-35 EQ offers adjustment in 9 frequency ranges. (I wish there was more increments:frown:)

So I chose the 63Hz slider and added +6.5
Chose the 125Hz slider and added +2.5
Chose the 250Hz slider and added +0.5

I didn?t add much in the 125Hz range because the RTi A9?s crossover is set to 120Hz 12dB/octave high pass, which I feel, is bit low to play the two 5.25 inch (each) mid-range speakers. They vibrated plenty before the addition of the tweaks I made to the system in contrast to the three 7 inches woofers which seem to just take a break.

leroyjr1, thank you again because you brought the X-Curve function which attenuates the high frequencies greater than and equal 2 kHz.

Since its midnight and I have renters, I will adjust that part tomorrow morning which can bring the treble down a notch if needed now that the bass is where I want it to be.

Right now, I'm well pleased soo
The Pioneer Elite SC-35 stays without an amp for now.

To be continued?

can you post some pictures of your settings?

SRTer

olilugo wrote: »

can you post some pictures of your settings?

Ok, I had one of my friends come listen to the system while I adjust the EQ settings. He plays guitar and mostly listen to Rock and Classical Rock. I listen to more R&B but I still like Soft Rock, Classical Rock, and Disco. I also sing, play drums, and use to play trumpet.
This is the EQ we came up with.
63Hz (+7)
125Hz (-6.5)
250Hz (-3.5)
500Hz (-1.0)
1k (-0.5)
2k (-1.0)
4k (-3.5)
8k (-4.5)
16k (-5.5)
The mid-range two 5.25 speakers had a rough time with some of the hard driving R&B and occasional rap tracks.
The tweeter was still screaming on Red Hot Chili Peppers Californication and Scare Tissue so we X-Curved the speakers to -2.5db


I will post pictures tonight.

SRTer

olilugo wrote: »

can you post some pictures of your settings?

Here is a PDF of the MCACC program settings. Also there are pics of the screen shots show how to get to the EQ.

As quadzilla said, "MCACC actually goes for "correct", which is basically flat, EQ response."

How this setting which the MCACC sets for these speakers while in my home is ultra bright at higher volume levels and leave the three 7 inch woofers setting on the bench waiting to play. I had to use a sub before but now, the bass is fast and full.

I even played the Polk Pro 500 sub with the RTi A9's and then turned them off only to show that the sub only shows up a little at the lowest of freqs like bass around 50Hz and less. I have the sub crossover at 80Hz. However, the sub is truly not need and is most likely a waste of money unless you want you windows to crack when you look at movies.

The SC-35 adjustability is really making me happy right now. The EQ adjustment is making all the difference.

SRTer

Well, say quadzilla said, ?I'd tried something similar, but noticed that in rolling off the highs, I lost a lot of "sparkle".

Use, I took out too much treble the first time around.

So, today I started with a full MCACC Calibration.

Secondly, I did the Advance EQ Setup which uses the mic in three listening positions.

True to form, The MCACC calibration goes for the flat sound which I want to add a little more bass and take out some of the treble.

Therefore, after I get out of work today I will try merging the EQ settings I made with the ones the MCACC calibration made.

Lastly, I will try bringing the equalizations in line with what I hear from the speaker in the Pure Direct mode which take out all equalization as well as most processing.

PDF below show the changes....

SRTer

Also, if there are any people in here who has tried to use their EQ to adjust their RTi A9's, please look at the charts and tell me what you think vs your setting.

It might not help much but it's a shot.

A got a worship leader coming by with music from his huge church which has a good sound man on the boards making magic every sunday to let me know what he think.

I will get this together sooner or later.

leroyjr1

Your EQ doesn't look right. A EQ should be more smooth. There's too big of a jump from the 63hz to the 125hz. You're over compensating for the lack of bass IMO.

Toolfan66

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Your EQ doesn't look right. A EQ should be more smooth. There's too big of a jump from the 63hz to the 125hz. You're over compensating for the lack of bass IMO.

Agreed!!!!!!

quadzilla

SRTer wrote: »

Also, if there are any people in here who has tried to use their EQ to adjust their RTi A9's, please look at the charts and tell me what you think vs your setting.

It might not help much but it's a shot.

A got a worship leader coming by with music from his huge church which has a good sound man on the boards making magic every sunday to let me know what he think.

I will get this together sooner or later.

No, I let MCACC set it up, then turn all that off when listening to music and use direct analog mode. Something else to point out, even when I can feel the bass in my chest, the woofers don't move much. The one time I took them up to a 1000 wpc and 109 db at the listening position, the woofers were still only moving about 1-1.5" total travel. These don't seem to be long throw woofers. So if that's your gauge, you need a new one.

All that said, settings will be unique for the room. Please try the earlier suggestion of doing a full 3 MCACC calibration, the select frequency response instead of phase. By default, that will be MCACC 2. The default of 1 is phase, which never gave me as much bass as 2 did. You might also try moving the speaker closer to the back wall. That will give you more room gain = more bass.

You may also have them toed in too far. How much toe in are you using?

leroyjr1

I was never able to get a ton of bass with my rti a9/pioneer elite sc setup until I introduced a pre amp into the mix. Talking about chest pounding bass.

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Your EQ doesn't look right. A EQ should be more smooth. There's too big of a jump from the 63hz to the 125hz. You're over compensating for the lack of bass IMO.

Yeah, it high a bit. However, remember I told you all how the mid-range 5.25's are playing down to 120Hz with 12Db slope. They were taking a beating at high volume. I do intend to bring the 63Hz down once I get home. I over comensated for the lack of bass in the beginning.

In the post above, I talked about bring my first adjust in line with the auto calibration and the sound of the Pure Direct mode.

Both of you are correct, I had the sub off so I want to see if I could make a full sound with out the sub. Truly, the RTi A9's can play all the bass any one wants.

I thing I will bring them down 2.5 points tonight as well as bringing the 125Hz up by 1.0 point.

It's going slow but I feel I have enough quality items to create truly pleasing well rounded sound for high volume levels.

Thanks for your input, I will use it in tuning tonight.
Any other suggestions?

Hopefully the pictures and PDF's help.

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

I was never able to get a ton of bass with my rti a9/pioneer elite sc setup until I introduced a pre amp into the mix. Talking about chest pounding bass.

Man, I'm telling you. There is plenty bass to be harnessed. I'm lowering the bass tonight.

SRTer

quadzilla wrote: »

All that said, settings will be unique for the room. Please try the earlier suggestion of doing a full 3 MCACC calibration, the select frequency response instead of phase. By default, that will be MCACC 2. The default of 1 is phase, which never gave me as much bass as 2 did. You might also try moving the speaker closer to the back wall. That will give you more room gain = more bass.

You may also have them toed in too far. How much toe in are you using?

I did a full auto cal, what eles are you refering.

quadzilla

SRTer wrote: »

I did a full auto cal, what eles are you refering.

Just do auto. That gives you the three options I suggested earlier. Default will be 1 phase, 2 frequency response (probably more bass) and 3 flat to front mains.

SRTer

Well, the sound is getting better. I will play different types of music today at high volume to see if everything sounds good with Standing Wave Att added in the mix.

I did bring the bass down some and raised the higher freqs. All in all, it's really sounding smoother. I will be starting from the EQ setting below and I think I will be done tomorrow.

I's starting to like the RTi A9's better everyday. It is true that they are not the best for music vs other speakers. However, I think you can work with them to make a sound you like for 2 ch music.

Also, I really do think the up grade to the Pioneer Elite SC-35 was worth it.

Thank you all for be helpful to a noob.

leroyjr1

Are you using these for mostly music or HT?

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Are you using these for mostly music or HT?

60% HT
40% Music