LSiC upgrade is about to get rollin!

JimAckley

I'm tired of the muffled voices in my center channel. While I'm picking and choosing my other components, I'm going to start upgrading all of my xovers.

For all of the HF circuits, Clarity Cap ESAs are going to be used. LF caps will probably be Clarity Cap PXs.

I'm not sure for resistors between the Mundorf Supreme or Dueland. I'm waiting to hear back for a price on the Duelands before I make that decision

On inductors, how close does the DCR have to be? I know dead on would be preferable, but what percentage difference would be allowable? If I were to replace them, what brand(s) are worthwhile to look at?

-Jim

mantis

Wanna up grade your center? Get a better AVR to drive it. I believe you are under powering it.

ben62670

I would say plus or minus 10% on the DCR is fine. You do know how limited the space is on those boards don't you? How are you going to mount your new inductors? Where are you going to get your caps? Madisound? The Mundorf resistors would be good IMHO.

BTW get an amp

JimAckley

mantis wrote: »

Wanna up grade your center? Get a better AVR to drive it. I believe you are under powering it.

I'm aware of that. I've already got another thread running to help me choose some separates. I'm going to be upgrading all of my x-overs while I decide which gear to pick from and while I build my new sub.

JimAckley

ben62670 wrote: »

I would say plus or minus 10% on the DCR is fine. You do know how limited the space is on those boards don't you? How are you going to mount your new inductors? Where are you going to get your caps? Madisound? The Mundorf resistors would be good IMHO.

BTW get an amp

I know the space is limited. I'm thinking of making separate boards for the LF and HF circuits. I'm going to be buying everything from Madisound, except for the Duelands (which Face swears by). I just emaled Dueland's only certified distributor here in the states, so I'll probably have the resistor question answered in the next couple days.

...and help me figure out which separates to get so I can go ahead and get an amp!

ben62670

Ask Face about the Mundorfs. He said they sound very nice in the right applications. I am going to use them on my custom SDA's.

JimAckley

pff... and I thought you had all of my answers... haha. Have you started a thread about your Custom SDAs?

ben62670

Post 107 has a pic of the ones I am running now.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78359&page=4
I have built several sets of custom SDA's. The set I have now sound the best so far. Well these sounded real good too, but required a very large room to sound good.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53273

Outfitter03

L2 = http://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=189&products_id=8898

0.299 ohms ERSE vs. 0.31 spec.

L3 and L4 = http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/EQCoils18Gauge/EAC35-18-4000
1.09 ohms ERSE vs. 1.00 spec.

L1 has a DCR of 0.30ohm which is so high it will be next to impossible to match so I would use the inductor from the existing crossover. It is already an air core.

The last set of inductors that I ordered from Erse that were out of stock took about 4 weeks to get, your results may vary.

ben62670

I fully agree on L1

BlueFox

I upgraded my LSiC to a PSB Synchrony One center, and haven't looked back.

Face

Mundorf MOX resistors don't hold a candle to Duelund. I haven't tried Mundorf's premium resistors though.

As far as inductors go, leave L1 alone. IIRC, I used Solen inductors for L2 and L3/4.

JimAckley

Is it really worthwhile to change the inductors?

And should I consider changing any cap values? I saw on McLoki's thread, people were adding in small caps here and there, etc. I don't know what was accomplished by doing that, but it's got me curious.

Face

I would definitely consider changing L2, L3/4 only if you run the unit full range, and even then the difference may only be subtle.

I wouldn't change any values.

JimAckley

I cross it over at 80 Hz. Leave them alone? Or still worth the change?

ben62670

Face wrote: »

Mundorf MOX resistors don't hold a candle to Duelund. I haven't tried Mundorf's premium resistors though.

As far as inductors go, leave L1 alone. IIRC, I used Solen inductors for L2 and L3/4.

What do you think of MOX vs Mill's?

Face wrote: »

I would definitely consider changing L2, L3/4 only if you run the unit full range, and even then the difference may only be subtle.

I wouldn't change any values.

Just for clarifacation you mean if you run the speakers at high power often. Another words at high power the inductors may saturate, but at lower levels the inductors perform fine?

Thanks Face
Ben

Face

ben62670 wrote: »

What do you think of MOX vs Mill's?

MOX may be a little more revealing, but can also have a slight edge to them, it depends on what kind of sound you're looking for.

ben62670 wrote: »

Just for clarifacation you mean if you run the speakers at high power often. Another words at high power the inductors may saturate, but at lower levels the inductors perform fine?

Generally, but it's also frequency dependent. I don't have an issue with using a good solid core inductor in a woofer circuit, but would never use one in a midrange circuit.

JimAckley

I suppose I'll leave them be for now. I'm planning on a 200-300 wpc amplifier soon though...

McLoki

I was happy with the upgrades in mine only doing the caps and resistors....

(then again, I have not heard one with an inductor swap, so maybe I just don't know what I am missing... )

Michael. (BTW - I did have to remote mount the 260uf caps. (caps because I used 3 to equal the 260) everything else fit on the board though.

good luck with the upgrade.

Michael

ben62670

PE has Solen's in 130uf.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-622

JimAckley

McLoki wrote: »

I was happy with the upgrades in mine only doing the caps and resistors....

(then again, I have not heard one with an inductor swap, so maybe I just don't know what I am missing... )

Michael. (BTW - I did have to remote mount the 260uf caps. (caps because I used 3 to equal the 260) everything else fit on the board though.

good luck with the upgrade.

Michael

I've been trying to get a hold of you! Do you have the LSi7 diagram still? And how do I de-side my 7s?

JimAckley

And can anyone tell me if the Clarity Cap ESAs are going to be better than the Sonicap Gen1 caps?

mantis

What I want to understand is why you wanna upgrade your Crossovers when you have not heard your Lsi's yet? Without having the proper gear , I can't see how you would think you need a crossover upgrade , what if you get a new avr like a NAD or Rotel which can show off your speakers and they sound fantastic? Then you go messing around with the crossovers and they don't sound good anymore? How do you know what needs changing? Are you a speaker and crossover designer?
I understand upgrading crossovers IF you have the gear hehind them and they need tweaking , but really wouldn't that tell you that the speakers you own are not for you? Again this applies IF you had the gear behind them to make them sound their best.

I'm not done , what about calibration and proper placement? How do you know your room calibration and placement isn't causing you to not like the center channel? I ask all of this as I owned the entire line of LSi's and never once felt the need to improve the center channel. I also had B&K driving them. I used Kimber Kable 8tc speaker wires and Hero IC's. I had proper placement and they where calibrated to my seating area. I thought the center channel performed very well and matched my Lsi15's perfectly.

pearsall001

mantis wrote: »

What I want to understand is why you wanna upgrade your Crossovers when you have not heard your Lsi's yet? Without having the proper gear , I can't see how you would think you need a crossover upgrade , what if you get a new avr like a NAD or Rotel which can show off your speakers and they sound fantastic? Then you go messing around with the crossovers and they don't sound good anymore? How do you know what needs changing? Are you a speaker and crossover designer?
I understand upgrading crossovers IF you have the gear hehind them and they need tweaking , but really wouldn't that tell you that the speakers you own are not for you? Again this applies IF you had the gear behind them to make them sound their best.

I'm not done , what about calibration and proper placement? How do you know your room calibration and placement isn't causing you to not like the center channel? I ask all of this as I owned the entire line of LSi's and never once felt the need to improve the center channel. I also had B&K driving them. I used Kimber Kable 8tc speaker wires and Hero IC's. I had proper placement and they where calibrated to my seating area. I thought the center channel performed very well and matched my Lsi15's perfectly.

I have to agree with you on this one Dan. With my Rotel RMB-1095 driving the whole lot of my LSi's I can honestly say that I'm not inclined to mess with a crossover upgrade. My LSiC performs flawlessly, vocals, music, you name it it sounds perfect. Maybe someday I'll consider the notion but for now I'm more than happy!!! Give 'em plenty of amp "muscle" before you cave on the X0's.

McLoki

JimAckley wrote: »

I've been trying to get a hold of you! Do you have the LSi7 diagram still? And how do I de-side my 7s?

I fixed my sig (not sure what happened to it) and you have an e-mail at your Yahoo account.

Best of luck to you,

Michael


Edit - here is a link to the LSi7 - side removal project...

Face

JimAckley wrote: »

And can anyone tell me if the Clarity Cap ESAs are going to be better than the Sonicap Gen1 caps?

They have better spacial info.

pearsall001 wrote: »

I have to agree with you on this one Dan. With my Rotel RMB-1095 driving the whole lot of my LSi's I can honestly say that I'm not inclined to mess with a crossover upgrade. My LSiC performs flawlessly, vocals, music, you name it it sounds perfect. Maybe someday I'll consider the notion but for now I'm more than happy!!! Give 'em plenty of amp "muscle" before you cave on the X0's.

IMO, the difference between a stock and modded LSiC is more than subtle. But I agree, an amp is needed first.

FTGV

Face wrote: »

They have better spacial info.

Can you map that out for us inquisitive types?:biggrin:

Face

FTGV wrote: »

Can you map that out for us inquisitive types?:biggrin:

I see what you did there.

I found that ESA's gave a bigger soundstage and better imaging.

JimAckley

mantis wrote: »

What I want to understand is why you wanna upgrade your Crossovers when you have not heard your Lsi's yet? Without having the proper gear , I can't see how you would think you need a crossover upgrade , what if you get a new avr like a NAD or Rotel which can show off your speakers and they sound fantastic? Then you go messing around with the crossovers and they don't sound good anymore? How do you know what needs changing? Are you a speaker and crossover designer?
I understand upgrading crossovers IF you have the gear hehind them and they need tweaking , but really wouldn't that tell you that the speakers you own are not for you? Again this applies IF you had the gear behind them to make them sound their best.

I'm not done , what about calibration and proper placement? How do you know your room calibration and placement isn't causing you to not like the center channel? I ask all of this as I owned the entire line of LSi's and never once felt the need to improve the center channel. I also had B&K driving them. I used Kimber Kable 8tc speaker wires and Hero IC's. I had proper placement and they where calibrated to my seating area. I thought the center channel performed very well and matched my Lsi15's perfectly.

I took the liberty of highlight some inspirations behind this project. I trust you'll have no trouble finding them throughout my reply:

McLoki wrote: »

Well - package is still on track to arrive today. I did want to relay something interesting that happened last night with my center though (it was the first time I really noticed this happening).

Was watching the movie Bolt with the family at a pretty low level (-25 to -30) everything in the center channel was plenty loud and clear. As sounds expanded from the center channel to the fronts - I could clearly hear things getting more garbled and muddy sounding. I am unsure if it was the movie (maybe there were more center to front speaker pans than normal) or the lower volume, but it was really annoying.

The surrounds will be nice to have done, but I don't think I will be waiting as long as I thought to get the fronts completed.

on a side note, the capacitor upgrade definately lets you enjoy the movie with full (increased actually) clarity 5-6db lower than you typically would listen to it. That may be an important fact to keep in mind for apartment and condo dwellers....

Michael

Another resource:

McLoki wrote: »

Regarding the sound - When I first did my LSiC, I was a little underwhelmed with the change but the sound just kept improving the more time I listened to it. Based on that history and the fact that this time I at least had another speaker to compare it to - it was easier to form some initial impressions. Take this as a first impression only - the speakers were sitting on top of my LSi15's and I just stuck my head in front of one then the other to hear if there was any difference. Total time of this impression was only about 3-5min as my wife was trying to watch TV and not happy about me standing in front of it with my head in front of a speaker.... I was also bummed to find out my NAD pre/pro does not have a balance control so I could not really test fading the sound from one speaker to the other.

So to the nitty gritty - what did I hear. I was playing a Michael Buble CD (No wisecracks - it was in the player) anyway - I hooked up both 7's as my front speakers full range - stereo only and began listening. I stood back at first and listened for any imaging or volume differences. I did not notice any. The speakers sounded pretty similar in volume and the image was between the speakers with placement in the image where I expected to hear things.

Since I could not find a balance control on my Pre-Pro (guess I never looked for one before) I just stuck my head in front of one speaker then the other while playing the CD to see if I could hear any differences. I have heard this CD a number of times and always thought it sounded pretty good.

Through the unmodded speaker - everything sounded like I expected it to and remembered it -

through the modded speaker everything sounded more clear and distinct. There was no background noise at all, just the voice and instruments playing.

back to the unmodded - now everything sounds like it has an electronic haze around it. Like the voice and instruments have been eletronically generated and processed. There is a definate edge of distortion around everything that I did not notice until it was gone. All the sounds are artificial in this speaker and I can't believe I did not hear it before.

back to the modded speaker everything is clear and lifelike sounding. A subtle but huge improvement.


This exchange went back and forth for a few min. Total time on the caps was (and still is) under 5 min. From the LSiC project I know the sonicaps changed quite a bit for 20-30hours and then the changes slowed a lot but did continue over the next 100+ hours. It is to early to draw any conclusions from this, but so far I am happy with the upgrade. I will try to get a little more time in front of each speaker comparing them before I mod the other crossover. I will post more impressions as I get them.

Michael

ben62670 wrote: »

If you could that would be very helpful. I don't have 9's, but others (mmadden)sure could use the info. The improvement all across the board is substantial; not just "oh yeah its better". It sounds much louder too. I attribute this to the resistors not impeding the flow to the drivers.
Ben


I would seriously try the upgrade first.

ben62670 wrote: »

Hey guys sreiously you hav e to do this. I am listening to Lynda Rondstat with serious woood here. May be its the Jack Daniels, biut-trjkoadsfadsl;kjklsdrfnq;ee4qo;htiohdfasig Damns

jjwm27 wrote: »

Ben was right, my Lsi9s did suck, i just did the sonicap mills upgrade and they havnt even broke in yet and i cant get over how much better they sound, not just a little but a LOT, this is a must do upgrade. thanks to all of you that posted pics, it made it easy. well back to my chair.

dhart86 wrote: »

WOW! Now I get the title to the threat. My 7's sound X....O....LENT
The modded XO's make it sound like a much better speaker. Thanks again Face!
Lsi owners really need to check into getting the mod

Roland P wrote: »

I let a diy shop mod the crossovers on my LSi9's and LSiC.
I'm really amazed by the results. Highs are much cleaner and clearer now. Better capacitors makes the LSi's really shine.

Has anyone already modded their LSiFX's ?

dhart86 wrote: »

After about a month or so and over 150 listening hours, my LSi7 mod is really giving me what I was hoping for. The speakers are more opened and detailed. The highs are extended, but still butter smooth. The bass is punchy. Mid's sound very good. This mod was well worth it. I can't get off these things a night, my music sounds amazing. If your contemplating this mod......Just do it! Thanks again Face, excellent work! I may be making another request in the near future, hope you can do another mod for me

I hope some of these will show you why I'd consider this.

I've my 25s with my Kenwood KC-X1 pre and KM-X1 amplifier. I've run them on the Crown amplifier I used to have. I've run them on my buddy's Carver. I've tried a lot of gear and cables. I've played with placement. I've moved my 25s all around my front area, and I've tried the C on a stand, on the table, and on the wall... you name it. I've heard the LSis, and I think they're a wonderful speaker. They're still laid back though. Does this mean I have no intention of getting better equipment to drive them? Hell no. I've got a thread in the Electronics section. I've got another thread in the 2-ch section. I'm doing my research before I go and spend thousands of dollars. In the meantime, I'm going to put high end parts in my crossovers. Why you seem to object to the order I'm upgrading my system is beyond me...

mantis

Because your driving them with a Yamaha HTR-6230 Which is a entry level Yamaha receiver. You need a good back bone before you can tweak.
I'm just trying to help you. If you had a good back bone , then you can decide if you need more improving.

Outfitter03

Jim obviously you are free to spend your money any way you want and do things in the order that you choose. If you have the financial resources to work on ordering crossover upgrade components the same time as amps and cables to bring together your system, that is your choice. You are a blessed man to have deep pockets.

I have started down this road with a much less worthy speaker than you are upgrading, the new Monitor series. I have a few thoughts for you on your plan.

For most of us the gear is for the music so the upgrade plan should include having a functioning system to enjoy along the way. I currently have a pair of Monitor 10's doing surround duty in place of my Monitor 60's. Not a real good match, but they work.

I am a believer like many on here about having a separate multichannel amp or amps to power the speakers. Even with my Monitor series, adding separate power amps made a huge, instantaneous difference. I shopped used and bought Parasound and Adcom and know that if I change my mind I will easily be able to sell these amps for close to what I paid, if not make a little money for an upgrade.

The same goes with cables. Cables are an easy upgrade with fast results. I would want to have decent cables and interconnects prior to taking my speakers out of action for a crossover upgrade.

Tweaks and upgrades appeal to me as much earlier in my life, I was a pretty good electronics technician, but life's paths have led me down different roads, 25 years worth. So through this new found hobby I will get to use an old skill. That said, you usually will never recoup the money spent on the upgrades and actually they may make it more difficult to sell your upgraded items. You also are walking away from your warranty if you are an honest person. LSI speakers are not cheap. If you have the gear swapping bug or have the resources to upgrade further this is something to consider. Most likely a lot of the cost of this upgrade will be a sunk cost unless you find a special buyer.

It takes time to receive all your components, assemble the proper tools and do these upgrades. Then there is a break in period on the modded crossovers. If you have limited free time like myself, taking it slow may be more realistic. Only you can make that call.