RTI A7 Bi Amp Impedance / Resistance
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That said even in a 5.1 system, w/'A7 LRs bi-amped by an AVR rated at, say 90 X 2, 75 X 4, and of course less X 5, SHOULD sound better and "see" more power w/less distortion. WHY NOT?!
If you study your own words you should realize, WHY NOT.
My speakers are not A7 and the tweeter is the only driver on the top post.
I only told the original poster what I can hear on MY system (not yours or anyone else's) and was told by you and others that I was wrong.
That would have been my last post if I had not gotten so many post saying that I was wrong.
Instead of saying that there is never any advantageto bi-amping or bi-wiring, maybe you should tell people that some say it helps and others say it does not help and suggest that they try it to see if it helps them. None of you know every system and should not act as if you do.
Just my opinion on how to help others..Post edited by don0 on -
Many of today’s speakers can be “BiWired”, meaning the speaker has
separate inputs for the woofer and separate inputs for the higher frequencies.
Should you BiWire? If so, should you BiWire with a single cable (Single
BiWire/SBW) or with two separate cables (Double BiWire/DBW)?
Is BiWiring so important that you should spend twice as much on speaker
cable? BiWiring is actually a way to get higher performance for the same
expenditure. The BiWiring question is not about how much money to spend,
but how to maximize performance and value.Magnetic Fields and Bass Energy:
When using a single full-range speaker cable (not BiWiring) the large
amounts of bass energy carried within the single cable has an adverse
effect on the upper frequencies. In a BiWire set-up the cable feeding the
higher frequencies no longer handles the large magnetic fields caused by
the high current needed to produce bass. BiWiring does not affect the bass
fundamentals, but the treble signal now travels a less disturbed path. It’s a
little like the difference between swimming through waves versus through
smooth water. Bass frequencies will sound better because bass definition
is actually located in the midrange and higher frequencies. . It is always
worthwhile to take advantage of the benefits of BiWiring when the speaker
manufacturer has gone to the extra expense of providing this capability. The
performance benefits of reducing distortion in this way are substantial.
BiWiring and Cable Geometry:
When BiWiring, the two (bass and treble) cables must either be identical, or
have essentially identical geometries. If the cables have different geometries
they will have different capacitance and inductance. Capacitance
and inductance are the values used to create a loudspeaker’s low-pass
and high-pass filter networks, together making a crossover. Having different
values in the two cables effectively redesigns the crossover…not a good
thing! The integrity and coherence of the speaker will be compromised. -
One last time. I never said, nor do I think anyone else said that what you are hearing isn't what you are hearing. I and the others said many times that your reasoning for what you are hearing was wrong and it is still wrong. You may not like my next comment, but I don't care as it needs to be said. Your reading comprehension is terrible.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I don't think anyone said you were lying about hearing a difference, just the reasons why you said you heard a difference.
Are you bi-amping or bi-wiring ? Using a receiver to bi-amp ? If your using bi-wired cables, are they the same gauge for both top and bottom ? Did you change brands of cable over your single runs ?
Same ga and brand everywhere including the jumpers.
Several posters above say that I said that I heard can not be true.
I was only telling the original poster what I heard and several people jumped in and said NOT TRUE.
So then, your not using a bi-wired cable ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I don't think anyone said you were lying about hearing a difference, just the reasons why you said you heard a difference.
Are you bi-amping or bi-wiring ? Using a receiver to bi-amp ? If your using bi-wired cables, are they the same gauge for both top and bottom ? Did you change brands of cable over your single runs ?
Same ga and brand everywhere including the jumpers.
Several posters above say that I said that I heard can not be true.
I was only telling the original poster what I heard and several people jumped in and said NOT TRUE.
So then, your not using a bi-wired cable ?
Using one wire and jumpers originally and two cables on each speaker later. -
One last time. I never said, nor do I think anyone else said that what you are hearing isn't what you are hearing. I and the others said many times that your reasoning for what you are hearing was wrong and it is still wrong. You may not like my next comment, but I don't care as it needs to be said. Your reading comprehension is terrible.
My originall post was to tell the thread starter what my expeerience with bi-amping and bi-wiring is.
The reason Ibelieve this is the reason for the difference. I did not state it as a fact, it is something that I read someplace.
I have read many of your post where you sat that bi-amping with a receiver is a waste of time and money. You are probably right is some cases but not in all.
You discouraged the thread starter from even trying it. Bot a good thing to do. -
Since I posted my experience for the thread starter, this thread had become argumentive and stupid.
I invite all of you to do as I am going to do
I am going to take a break and enjoy some music and movies.
Later gators,
Don -
It is a waste of time if one understands that to bi-amp requires at a minimum TWO separate amps, each with it's own power supply, not a shared one like every AVR made. Therefore, one cannot bi-amp with an AVR, period.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I don't think anyone said you were lying about hearing a difference, just the reasons why you said you heard a difference.
Are you bi-amping or bi-wiring ? Using a receiver to bi-amp ? If your using bi-wired cables, are they the same gauge for both top and bottom ? Did you change brands of cable over your single runs ?
Same ga and brand everywhere including the jumpers.
Several posters above say that I said that I heard can not be true.
I was only telling the original poster what I heard and several people jumped in and said NOT TRUE.
So then, your not using a bi-wired cable ?
Using one wire and jumpers originally and two cables on each speaker later.
Both sets, the single run and jumpers, and the other set of 2 single runs, same brand and gauge all around ? I have a theory so bear with me.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I don't think anyone said you were lying about hearing a difference, just the reasons why you said you heard a difference.
Are you bi-amping or bi-wiring ? Using a receiver to bi-amp ? If your using bi-wired cables, are they the same gauge for both top and bottom ? Did you change brands of cable over your single runs ?
Same ga and brand everywhere including the jumpers.
Several posters above say that I said that I heard can not be true.
I was only telling the original poster what I heard and several people jumped in and said NOT TRUE.
So then, your not using a bi-wired cable ?
Using one wire and jumpers originally and two cables on each speaker later.
Both sets, the single run and jumpers, and the other set of 2 single runs, same brand and gauge all around ? I have a theory so bear with me.
What don't you understand?
Reworded
Used one cable and jumpers on each speaker first and then two cables and no jumpers on each speaker later.
Hope this helps. -
One last time. I never said, nor do I think anyone else said that what you are hearing isn't what you are hearing. I and the others said many times that your reasoning for what you are hearing was wrong and it is still wrong. You may not like my next comment, but I don't care as it needs to be said. Your reading comprehension is terrible.
Show me what post I did not understand. -
Either bi-amping or bi-wiring my speakers seems to make the tweeters sound a little better on some female voices, especially on classical or opera music.
I believe it is because the high current of the woofers do not reach the tweeters.
This is partly correct. The current comes from the same place but the current on the tweeter wire will be much less that it is on the other wire with 4 large drivers connected to it on my speakers that has the tweeter alone on the top post.
They are not on the same current loop/circuit. -
True for frequencies but not for current, same source for current but not same wire.The current is pulled from the same power supply in the receiver. Bi-wiring won't improve anything in the way you're describing, as the current is not only coming from the same power supply, but the same terminal jacks even - to the same amps.
But it does not travel on the same wire and I can hear the difference.
The nasty language guy told me the same thing as you about signal but he did not mention current, so what was he talking about when he said that what I said can not be true. His scope does not have ears.
My statement was about the difference I heard when bi-amping or bi-wiring. The current statement was not the main subject of my post.
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One last time. I never said, nor do I think anyone else said that what you are hearing isn't what you are hearing. I and the others said many times that your reasoning for what you are hearing was wrong and it is still wrong. You may not like my next comment, but I don't care as it needs to be said. Your reading comprehension is terrible.
Yes you did, every time you said that bi-amping with a receiver is a waste of time.
I don't mind your statement about my reading comprehension. Just show me examples (post #'s) of what I did not understand. I won't get nasty about it like some people.
Show me the many times (post #'s) that you and others said that it was my reasoning was wrong and not what I said I heard that was wrong.
My reason was not stated as a fact, read it, what I heard was.
The nasty language guy said Bi-wiring won't improve anything in the way you're describing, as the current is not only coming from the same power supply, but the same terminal jacks even - to the same amps. So what was he talking about when he said that? I assume that he means everything that I said.
He said that a scope proves me wrong. Scopes do not have ears.
The tweeter on one wire has much less current than the four large drivers on the other wire.
The current statement was not the main subject of my post.
My post was for the original poster about about the difference that I heard when bi-amping or bi-wiring as compaired to regular hook up.Post edited by don0 on -
I just luv reading guys that say "anything is possible", and "everything matters", and "Science can not explain everything in audio", "not everything can be measured", telling another guy that what he thinks is possible or matters, Is NOT possible nor does it matter~!
Hypocrite Troll Fail!
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I smell hot dogs!!!
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I see k_m has the same reading comprehension issues as you, dono.
I ask you to show me the post that I do not understand.
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Anaheim Hills CA,
HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30
2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703 -
I ask f1nut, not you.
I agree with the poster that said he can hear a difference with music but not HT.
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....Anaheim Hills CA,
HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30
2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703 -
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Thank you, my answer exactly.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
LMAO !!
Perfect....as the commercial says.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Thread creator read this
http://www.achievum.eu/bi-wiring.htmlWhen properly designed and constructed speaker cables are used in standard configuration there are no benefits of bi-wiring. Rather bi-wiring has great potential to cause timing differences, incoherence in the audio signal and unnecessary cable cost.
If you still hear an improvement when bi-wiring, don’t stop reading! There might be valid reasons for your findings although the statement above holds true, as explained below.- First reason – The original speaker cables used in standard configured have been wrongly constructed (often with too high impedance). The cable impedance is composed of 3 components: Resistance (Rdc), Inductance (L), Capacitance (C). Rdc being the dominating parameter for speaker cables. By Ohms law we know that the Rdc will reduce by half when using double cable runs, which is the most common way to bi-wire. This will in many cases lead to a distinct audible increase in overall loudness level. While this can be seen as an improvement it should be noted that this is not due to the bi-wiring as such but solely due to the double cable runs. So this result could easily have been obtained by using a properly designed speaker cable of thicker gauge in the first place.
- Second reason - Speakers with bi-wire optionally have been used with the standard jumper- links or poor jumper-cables attached. When bi-wiring these are removed. This will in many cases lead to an audible improvement in the speaker section that was connected only with the jumper-links (not connected directly with the speaker cable). However, this improvement again is not due to the bi-wiring but rather due to the inadequate jumpers. Unfortunately most speakers with bi-wire optionally come mounted with jumper-links of poorest construction and material. This is due to cost concerns and the thought that the user will opt for bi-wire configuration and remove the jumper-links soonest.
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
Suppose I cut the length in half (10' to 5') and take the (now) spare (5') piece and re-connect as double 5' run of 10 ga. Should I hear a difference?The only difference when bi-wiring is you are effectively increasing the wire gauge, which could be done with a single run as well.
Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work -
Suppose I cut the length in half (10' to 5') and take the (now) spare (5') piece and re-connect as double 5' run of 10 ga. Should I hear a difference?The only difference when bi-wiring is you are effectively increasing the wire gauge, which could be done with a single run as well.
Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
