An upgrade that wasn't

Jetmaker737
Jetmaker737 Posts: 1,047
edited January 2011 in 2 Channel Audio
I picked up some AQ Diamondbacks and swapped them between my CDP and Pre replacing some AQ sidewinders. I noticed immediately a less pleasing sound. The high end was grating and dissonant sounding. I figured I'd let them break in a couple of weeks. Afterwords I did several rounds of swapping back and forth and decided that the Sidewinders just sound better. I know the Diamondbacks aren't a huge leap upward but they are more than double the cost (retail).

Anybody have similar experience going up a manufacturers chain with disatisfying results?
SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2011
    Probably all of us at one time or another. It's more so the synergy thing, price has nothing to do with it. The only way is to try different things. Not everything will work in your system. Try another brand.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
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    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
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    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited January 2011
    It would be SO much EASIER if Synergy didn't exist? But what can you do?

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited January 2011
    cnh wrote: »
    It would be SO much EASIER if Synergy didn't exist? But what can you do?

    cnh

    Pretend it doesn't exist?

    Some do.....:tongue:

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited January 2011
    Thank you so much for a breather in reality. When we say that cost means nothing, synergy does? This is exactly what we mean.

    Great observation. Keep 'em coming.

    Just keep in mind, with another rig, different gear, same tunes? The complete opposite may happen. :wink:
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • raffi
    raffi Posts: 114
    edited January 2011
    I, too, picked up the new Diamondbacks as you did and noticed a slight improvement immediately but...they were replacing G-snakes, which are on the extreme low end of AQ's line so they SHOULD sound better, probably much moreso than they currently do. That said, I don't have 100 hours on them yet so more burn in time is probably needed.

    I'm going to get another 20-30 hours on them and then try to compare them with the King Cobras that I have as well...should be interesting.
    2 channel rig: MMF 2.2 turntable, Adcom GFP-715, Adcom GFA-555, Adcom ACE-515, Carver M-1.0t, Denon 5900 CD/SACD, SDA-SRS 2.3s (Zardoss modded), AQ Diamondback & King Cobra IC's and AQ Type 4 speaker cables

    HT rig: Panny 50" G20 plasma, Directv DVR, Insignia BRD/DVD/SACD/DVD-A, Denon AVR-890, Fronts: Polk Monitor 70's, Rears: Deftech Mythos Gems, Center: Polk CS1, Sub: Polk PSW-505
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  • vmaxer
    vmaxer Posts: 5,117
    edited January 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Thank you so much for a breather in reality. When we say that cost means nothing, synergy does? This is exactly what we mean.

    Great observation. Keep 'em coming.

    Just keep in mind, with another rig, different gear, same tunes? The complete opposite may happen. :wink:

    Yep....drives me crazy:redface:
    Pio Elete Pro 520
    Panamax 5400-EX
    Sunfire TGP 5
    Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
    PS Audio GCPH phono pre
    Sunfire CG 200 X 5
    Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
    OPPO BDP-83 SE
    SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
    Ctr CS1000p
    Sur - FX1000 x 4
    SUB - SVS PB2-Plus

    Workkout room:
    Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
    Onkyo TX-DS898
    GFA 555
    Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
    Ft - SDA 1C

    Not being used:
    RTi 38's -4
    RT55i's - 2
    RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
    LSI 15's
    CSi40
    PSW 404
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,081
    edited January 2011
    I had some Sidewinders and they are indeed a great bang for the buck cable.
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2011
    I found the both the Copperheads and Diamondbacks to be a step up in sound quality from the Sidewinders. The differences were subtle but there. I think the Diamondbacks may be more detailed/revealing...which is probably what you are noticing and don't like. I also felt they provided a little better bass response when I compared them (about 6 years ago). My sidewinders haven't seen use in a long time. I sold the Diamondbacks and kept the Copperheads as the difference between them were hardly noticable.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2011
    My findings were a bit different, I preferred both sidewinder and copperhead to diamondback. Diamondback had a very dry, 2-dimensional sound to me.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2011
    The diamondback have a different sound than much of the rest of the lineup.
    I know that the King Cobra in my system didn't sound as good as the diamondback.
    The copperheads were horridly bright. In the end, Kimber heroes beat them all.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited January 2011
    It's all about System matching!
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited January 2011
    I have a few systems in the house. The system down stairs, carver c-19 pre, carver amazings or SDA 2.3, sunfire sigII and a technics 1200 with a denon dl160, jolida cd with EI tubes. Ben's silver IC's vs MIT avt2 vs Audioquest Columbia, Ben's on that system won hands down! Every aspect Highs, lows, mids.
    Now change systems to my up stairs rig. McIntosh 2105, integra pre, sony cd, JM labs Coblat 815 and the MIT AVt2 wins hands down. ( nothing against the Columbia, but on my rigs, both beat the Columbia)

    $ on the Columbia was more on all playing fields but, on my rigs, to my ears, they didnt cut it.


    On my friends system though, ( the one i sold the Columbia's to ) running all B&K on 1.2's the Columbia's sounded better then the MIT, and Bens silvers.


    If you can find a dealer that either gives a 30 $ back no questions asked to try at home, ( Needle Doctor comes to mind) sometimes it makes it easier to keep trying different things.

    Again like everyone else has said, it is all about synergy.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • miner
    miner Posts: 1,305
    edited January 2011
    Jetmaker737 wrote: »
    I picked up some AQ Diamondbacks and swapped them between my CDP and Pre replacing some AQ sidewinders. I noticed immediately a less pleasing sound. The high end was grating and dissonant sounding. I figured I'd let them break in a couple of weeks. Afterwords I did several rounds of swapping back and forth and decided that the Sidewinders just sound better. I know the Diamondbacks aren't a huge leap upward but they are more than double the cost (retail).

    Anybody have similar experience going up a manufacturers chain with disatisfying results?

    Are you still satisfied with the King Cobras?
    [
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited January 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Thank you so much for a breather in reality. When we say that cost means nothing, synergy does? This is exactly what we mean.

    Great observation. Keep 'em coming.

    Just keep in mind, with another rig, different gear, same tunes? The complete opposite may happen. :wink:

    From a sound stage cable review:

    In loudspeaker design, the one unknown variable the designer is given is the environment in which the speakers will be placed. (For the sake of this discussion, I’m leaving out the driving amplifier, as the designer can make strong suggestions as to the power/current requirements.) Even with this variable he can make certain placement and square-footage guidelines. But pity the cable designer. He has no say whatsoever in the components his product is connecting. His design will live and die by system distortions, impedance matching, ground loops, RFI, EMI. And pity the audiophile who, lacking an EE degree, is reliant on (hopefully) knowledgeable dealers, dubious "scientific" claims in advertisements, and of course the ever-present internecine warfare of competing manufacturers. Pity also the poor sap who volunteers to venture into the wonderful world of wire reviewing.
    Jake
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  • Jetmaker737
    Jetmaker737 Posts: 1,047
    edited January 2011
    miner wrote: »
    Are you still satisfied with the King Cobras?

    Yep. Got them sitting between my Pre and Amp. I'm happy with the sound but never did a comparison. At the time I was preoccupied testing CDP's. At this point I may try a three way comparo of the D-Backs, King Cobras, and Sidewinders in that spot. I may even throw the King Cobras on the CDP since I somewhat suspect that sources may be more critical for IC's.
    SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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  • phipiper10
    phipiper10 Posts: 955
    edited January 2011
    Between Sidewinder, Diamond Backs and King Cobras the Diamond Backs were the least pleasing to me.
    Analog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin T2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC: Denafrips Pontus II Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Pass X150.8 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Morrow M4 ICs & Audio Art SC-5 ePlus, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2011
    anonymouse wrote: »
    I bought some King Cobras recently and found zero difference between them and my Monster Ultras. I kept them in my rig for a couple weeks, but no revelations. Either the King Cobras were fake (possibility) or they really are pretty basic cables. Thankfully the seller took them back graciously.

    See, at least your trying something different. Didn't cost you anything to boot. Most times you can re sell at min. loss. Sooner or later you'll find your huckleberry.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,287
    edited January 2011
    danz1906 wrote: »
    it's all about system matching!

    amen
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • Jetmaker737
    Jetmaker737 Posts: 1,047
    edited January 2011
    tonyb wrote: »
    Try another brand.
    sucks2beme wrote: »
    The diamondback have a different sound than much of the rest of the lineup.
    I know that the King Cobra in my system didn't sound as good as the diamondback.
    The copperheads were horridly bright. In the end, Kimber heroes beat them all.

    I think it's time to give Kimber or maybe MIT a try. AQ is the only brand I've tried. Before that it was rat shack.
    SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2011
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Just keep in mind, with another rig, different gear, same tunes? The complete opposite may happen. :wink:
    Fortunately now there's a timesaving roadmap available from our friends at Audio Nation's Synergy Foundation.
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited January 2011
    Jetmaker737 wrote: »
    I picked up some AQ Diamondbacks and swapped them between my CDP and Pre replacing some AQ sidewinders. I noticed immediately a less pleasing sound. The high end was grating and dissonant sounding. I figured I'd let them break in a couple of weeks. Afterwords I did several rounds of swapping back and forth and decided that the Sidewinders just sound better. I know the Diamondbacks aren't a huge leap upward but they are more than double the cost (retail).

    Anybody have similar experience going up a manufacturers chain with disatisfying results?

    Did you leave the Diamondbacks in play for several weeks? I should actually ask, "for 200+ hours of actual use?"
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • JimAckley
    JimAckley Posts: 1,138
    edited January 2011
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    Fortunately now there's a timesaving roadmap available from our friends at Audio Nation's Synergy Foundation.

    That is absolutely hilarious :smile:
    - Computer Rig -
    YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5

    - Main Rig -
    Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD

    - Currently In Progress -
    Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf
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  • Jetmaker737
    Jetmaker737 Posts: 1,047
    edited January 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    Did you leave the Diamondbacks in play for several weeks? I should actually ask, "for 200+ hours of actual use?"

    Nope... I actually gave them about 30 hours or so. But they started so far behind the curve and didn't seem to be catching up so I swapped the old ones back in and went "ahhhhhhhhh" :cool:
    SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2011
    Let them burn between the CDP and the pre. You don't need the amp on. Just put a dynamic CD on repeat. 30hrs isn't enough. Mine sound pretty good out the box, but nearly everyone says the same thing. After a few hours they smooth out a bit, and after 80 they are near completed. Remember the CDP puts out 2vrms where a pre only puts out what the volume control dictates. I did see that you had them hooked up between the pre and CDP, but for readers reading it is just an FYI.
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited January 2011
    ben great advice!
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited January 2011
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Let them burn between the CDP and the pre. You don't need the amp on. Just put a dynamic CD on repeat.
    I may be about to post the single most idiotic thing in CP history, but I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a completed circuit here...

    Don't you need the amp driving speakers... or the Pre driving headphones or a tape out... or something so current flows through the IC's?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2011
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    I may be about to post the single most idiotic thing in CP history,

    You are soo far from that Bruce....T-unit with his cardboard subwoofer has got to rank close to the top.:smile:
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited January 2011
    Tour2ma wrote:
    Don't you need the amp driving speakers... or the Pre driving headphones or a tape out... or something so current flows through the IC's?

    Nope...it's called "psychic burn-in"' It was discussed at length over at AH.

    An alternate plan would be to use your bagua to get the feng shui correct...thereby creating a possitive chi.

    Whichever way works best for you...
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2011
    Tour2ma wrote: »
    I may be about to post the single most idiotic thing in CP history, but I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a completed circuit here...

    Don't you need the amp driving speakers... or the Pre driving headphones or a tape out... or something so current flows through the IC's?

    The currant flows through the IC's via the pre. The hot of the pre is tied to the ground just like in an amp.

    Edit:Input impeadance on an average pre is 47k. This basically means that the signal has a 47k resistance to ground.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2011
    shack wrote: »
    Nope...it's called "psychic burn-in"' It was discussed at length over at AH.

    An alternate plan would be to use your bagua to get the feng shui correct...thereby creating a possitive chi.

    Whichever way works best for you...

    Can you read a schematic? Obviously not.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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