LSi9 with Integra DTR 40.2

nlysh

Hi,

I recently bought two LSi9s along with an LSiC. A local vendor convinced me to buy Integra DTR 40.2 receiver since it is rated to drive 4 ohm speakers. Please see the specs below.

I have been using this set up for about a month now. I feel the LSi9s I had listen to in the store sounded better than my current speakers. I feel that at normal volume level, the audio is suppressed or muffled. I would like to rule out the possibility of receiver under powering the speakers. The receiver manual doesn't explicitly rate all channel continuous or RMS power for 4 ohms load. Based on the spec listed below, does anyone think the receiver is the culprit here? Does anyone have any experience with DTR 40.2 driving any 4 ohm speakers?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

excerpt from the receiver manual

All channels:
110 watts minimum continuous power
per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels
driven from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with a
maximum total harmonic distortion of
0.08% (FTC)
120 watts minimum continuous power
per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels
driven at 1 kHz, with a maximum total
harmonic distortion of 0.7% (FTC)
130 watts minimum continuous power
per channel, 6 ohm loads, 2 channels
driven at 1 kHz, with a maximum total
harmonic distortion of 0.1% (FTC)
Maximum Effective Output Power
7 ch x 185 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven
(JEITA)
Dynamic Power
250 W (3 ohms, Front)
220 W (4 ohms, Front)
130 W (8 ohms, Front)

mantis

The Integra DTR40.2 is a fine receiver for home theater and 8 ohm load speakers. This is where it shines. When you start loading up on it , it runs out of gas and doesn't sound very good and is what you are experiencing.
You shoul dhave got the Integra DTR 80.2 which has more current and would drive you 9's slighty better.

If you want a receiver that would drive them properly then I suggest the following
NAD
http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T-785-A/V-Surround-Sound-Receiver
Cambridge Audio
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=493&Title=Azur+650R+7.1+HDMI+1.3+AVR+
Rotel
http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=471

tonyb

Driving 3 LSI's off a receiver that is not rated for 4 ohm speakers, yeah, you need an amp my friend. The saleman is more interested in making a sale than offering up good advice. I will say that receiver seems to be a very nice one,Integra makes some nice stuff for sure. I assume your using this in a HT ? 5 channel,7 ? If so, the more channels you run,the less power is given to all. It's always a good idea to have seperate amplification for hard to drive speakers like the LSI's. Receivers just don't have the power to make them shine. Look for a 3 channel amp,used, from the likes of b&K, adcom,parrasound, and a cast of others. Or move down to the RTIA line,much easier to drive.

nlysh

tonyb, thanks for the quick response. at present I have 3.0 setup (two fronts and a center, all LSis) with the intention of expanding it to 5.1 eventually. The DTR 40.2 receiver is rated for 4 ohms, but I am not sure if it is capable of feeding 200W/channel continuously. I do like the LSis - if an amplifier would solve the problem, I'd prefer buying an amp to moving down to RTiA.
Considering that I intend to expand to 5 channels eventually, should I get a 5 channel amp or the rears can be run without external amplifier?
Once again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks much.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

Driving 3 LSI's off a receiver that is not rated for 4 ohm speakers, yeah, you need an amp my friend. The saleman is more interested in making a sale than offering up good advice. I will say that receiver seems to be a very nice one,Integra makes some nice stuff for sure. I assume your using this in a HT ? 5 channel,7 ? If so, the more channels you run,the less power is given to all. It's always a good idea to have seperate amplification for hard to drive speakers like the LSI's. Receivers just don't have the power to make them shine. Look for a 3 channel amp,used, from the likes of b&K, adcom,parrasound, and a cast of others. Or move down to the RTIA line,much easier to drive.

Good advise here.

tonyb

nlysh wrote: »

tonyb, thanks for the quick response. at present I have 3.0 setup (two fronts and a center, all LSis) with the intention of expanding it to 5.1 eventually. The DTR 40.2 receiver is rated for 4 ohms, but I am not sure if it is capable of feeding 200W/channel continuously. I do like the LSis - if an amplifier would solve the problem, I'd prefer buying an amp to moving down to RTiA.
Considering that I intend to expand to 5 channels eventually, should I get a 5 channel amp or the rears can be run without external amplifier?
Once again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks much.

If your going in that direction, it depends on the speakers you want to fill in the rears. If you go with an 8 ohm speaker, then yes,get a 3 channel amp for the front 3,and let the receiver take care of the surrounds.
I didn't see anything in the specs that said it was capable of driving 4 ohm speaks in all channels, unless I missed something. All depends on your budget, sometimes a 5 channel amp is easier to come by than 3. Audiogon is a good source for used,new,demo gear,take a peek.

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk. Since you are planning on getting a complete LSI lineup, get a 5 channel amp. I always recommend at least 200wpc @ 8ohms, that way you will have at least 300wpc @ 4ohms.

This allow your LSI's to run to their full potential.

nlysh

Thanks for your expertise tonyb and cfrizz.

One more question, would the cables used for connecting speakers to receiver/amp make significant difference in audio quality? If so, are there any recommendations/preferences?

Thanks.

cfrizz

It all depends on how much money you wish to spend on cables. I have all Blue Jeans cables for my gear with the exception of a couple of Monoprice cables for my subs.

You can spend a few dollars or hundreds of dollars.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm
http://www.signalcable.com/analog_interconnects.html

dorourke07

Going with an amp openned up my 9's and made a real difference. Don't expect fireworks, but in my case the the highs and mids seemed crisper and the soundstage wider. The sound I was expecting. Don't forget that a quaility source, cd player etc., can make a difference too.

comfortablycurt

nlysh wrote: »

tonyb, thanks for the quick response. at present I have 3.0 setup (two fronts and a center, all LSis) with the intention of expanding it to 5.1 eventually. The DTR 40.2 receiver is rated for 4 ohms, but I am not sure if it is capable of feeding 200W/channel continuously. I do like the LSis - if an amplifier would solve the problem, I'd prefer buying an amp to moving down to RTiA.
Considering that I intend to expand to 5 channels eventually, should I get a 5 channel amp or the rears can be run without external amplifier?
Once again, I appreciate your feedback. Thanks much.

There's a difference between being rated for 4 ohm continuous loads, and having a 4 ohm dynamic power rating. The dynamic power rating means that it's good for quick dips down to 4 ohms. Keep in mind that a speakers impedance is a constantly variable measurement. It's not a constant...it's always falling and rising depending on the demands of the material that you're playing back.

That Integra has a dynamic power rating of 220watts at 4 ohms. This means that it can deliver 220 watts into a 4 ohm load for a very brief period...as little as fractions of a second. This doesn't mean that it's rated to drive a full setup of speakers with a 4 ohm nominal impedance. LSi9's can sometimes dip down to lower than 2 ohms...they're a fairly difficult speaker to drive, and aren't really meant to be driven by an AVR.

That Integra does seem like a very solid AVR, but it's probably the reason that you're not happy with your sound. Adding an external amp will most likely get you where you want to go. Something like an Adcom GFA-545, which is 100 wpc of good, clean, high current power would make a tremendous difference...and it's stable at just about any load you can throw at it. A lot of people throw around the "200wpc minimum" suggestion, but that simply isn't true. There wouldn't be any drawbacks to having more power, but if budget is of a concern it isn't absolutely necessary. Don't sacrifice in the quality of the amp, in the name of having a higher power rating. Remember, a 200 wpc amp is only going to give you about 3db more headroom versus a 100 wpc amp. Not a huge gain.

If you intend to get a full LSi setup eventually, getting a 5 channel amp may be your best bet. Another option would be getting a 3 channel amp for now, then when you add surrounds, get an additional 2 channel amp. You could then use the 2 channel amp to power the front left and right speakers to get much better sound when listening to music in 2 channel stereo, and then use the 3 channel amp for the center/surrounds. If musicality isn't of a big concern, a 5 channel amp would probably be your best bet. Something like an Adcom GFA-7500 would be an excellent option, and won't break the bank.


Regarding your question about cabling.....

Yes, cables can and do make a difference in sound in my experience. However, I highly doubt that the cables are the culprit to the issues that you're having here. Cables are more for tweaking the "finished product", than creating your overall sound. You might hear an improvement by getting better cabling, but I would HIGHLY recommend getting an external amp before you do that.

pearsall001

cfrizz wrote: »

It all depends on how much money you wish to spend on cables. I have all Blue Jeans cables for my gear with the exception of a couple of Monoprice cables for my subs.

You can spend a few dollars or hundreds of dollars.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm
http://www.signalcable.com/analog_interconnects.html

Let's not leave out the folks that spend "Thousands"!!!! :eek::biggrin: We don't want them to feel slighted now do we.

mantis

nlysh wrote: »

Thanks for your expertise tonyb and cfrizz.

One more question, would the cables used for connecting speakers to receiver/amp make significant difference in audio quality? If so, are there any recommendations/preferences?

Thanks.

Return the Integra , forget about getting an amp and cables and pick up the NAD T785HD receiver. This is all you need to make your LSi's sing and when you add LSi rear channels as well. It's also card base frame so upgrades down the road can be had. It's the last receiver you will need for a very long time.

pearsall001

mantis wrote: »

Return the Integra , forget about getting an amp and cables and pick up the NAD T785HD receiver. This is all you need to make your LSi's sing and when you add LSi rear channels as well. It's also card base frame so upgrades down the road can be had. It's the last receiver you will need for a very long time.

Dan that T785 is a "Beast" of an AVR to say the least. I do believe it's one of a very few AVR's that will do the LSi series or other 4ohm load speakers justice without breaking a sweat. NAD doesn't play around when it comes to pure power & sound quality.

mantis

pearsall001 wrote: »

Dan that T785 is a "Beast" of an AVR to say the least. I do believe it's one of a very few AVR's that will do the LSi series or other 4ohm load speakers justice without breaking a sweat. NAD doesn't play around when it comes to pure power & sound quality.

Years ago I turned my nose up at NAD because it's so damn ugly. I listened to it back then and thought Rotel was just as good with way better looks. Today I feel different about that as NAD stays more current , has room correction , card based frame ,etc better preamp section if you will.

We have used it on many jobs and I'm so damn impressed with it's performance. When you listen to it you truly believe your listening to separates. This receiver is worth every single retail penny.

mantis

Here is a look at NAD's entry level receiver.
NAD T 747 A/V Receiver Features
Features
Audio Decoding:
Dolby: TrueHD, Digital 5.1, EX, Pro Logic IIx, Virtual Speaker
DTS: DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS, ES, 96/24, Neo:6
Other: EARS surround, enhanced stereo, 7.1-channel stereo
THX Certification: No
Number of Amp Channels: 7
Rated Power (watts per channel):
60 watts into 8 ohms, 7 channels driven; 110 into 8 ohms, two channels driven
Specified Frequency Response:
20 Hz to 20 kHz (+/–0.5 dB)
Video Processing: Faroudja DCDi
Auto Setup/Room EQ: Proprietary
Dimensions (W x H x D, inches):
17.13 x 6.57 x 15.5
Weight (pounds): 29.32
Price: $1,299
Connections

As you can see it's only rated at 60 watts per channel running all 7 channels but here is how it performs in the real world.
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.7 watts
1% distortion at 114.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 66.8 watts
1% distortion at 79.8 watts

So by looking at these bench test marks the NAD entry level receiver exceeds it's factory power rating by 6.8 watts per channel. Name ANY other receiver made that can claim that? Proof is in the pudding.
If you are only running 5 channels with this entry level model you get 99.7 watts of NAD muscle which exceeds it's power rating of 60 watts MAN STYLE.

So driving the LSi's with the flagship Model in the T785 HD is a breeze and a no brainer.

nlysh

mantis wrote: »

Return the Integra , forget about getting an amp and cables and pick up the NAD T785HD receiver. This is all you need to make your LSi's sing and when you add LSi rear channels as well. It's also card base frame so upgrades down the road can be had. It's the last receiver you will need for a very long time.

I wish I could return it.. too late unfortunately.

mantis

nlysh wrote: »

I wish I could return it.. too late unfortunately.

Shame , I'm wondering if it would be smart to sell it instead of using it as a pre and getting the NAD. If I was after the best performance of the LSi's this would be my path.
Adding a external amp will yield better control but it's not going to change the overall sound quality much. It will change due to the speaker will get the current it needs but sound "quality" comes from the preamp. if the Integra sound quality is something you don't like , you are going to amplify it.

When adding amps to receivers is never really the ideal solution , a dedicated preamp usually sounds much better. In your case here if money is a problem , add an amp now and then down the road get a preamp like the NAD T175 HD.

Some of us have to take steps to reach audio Nirvana . For me I have to be very careful of my purchases as my pockets are not deep.

nlysh

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That Integra does seem like a very solid AVR, but it's probably the reason that you're not happy with your sound. Adding an external amp will most likely get you where you want to go. Something like an Adcom GFA-545, which is 100 wpc of good, clean, high current power would make a tremendous difference...and it's stable at just about any load you can throw at it. A lot of people throw around the "200wpc minimum" suggestion, but that simply isn't true. There wouldn't be any drawbacks to having more power, but if budget is of a concern it isn't absolutely necessary. Don't sacrifice in the quality of the amp, in the name of having a higher power rating. Remember, a 200 wpc amp is only going to give you about 3db more headroom versus a 100 wpc amp. Not a huge gain.

If you intend to get a full LSi setup eventually, getting a 5 channel amp may be your best bet. Another option would be getting a 3 channel amp for now, then when you add surrounds, get an additional 2 channel amp. You could then use the 2 channel amp to power the front left and right speakers to get much better sound when listening to music in 2 channel stereo, and then use the 3 channel amp for the center/surrounds. If musicality isn't of a big concern, a 5 channel amp would probably be your best bet. Something like an Adcom GFA-7500 would be an excellent option, and won't break the bank.

Is it possible to audition any amplifier before purchasing it to get an idea of how much of an improvement can be expected. Also, I use speakers for music as well as movies and games. So a 5 channel amp would be preferable if it is not inferior in quality than getting a 2 and 3 channels separately.

EndersShadow

nlysh wrote: »

Is it possible to audition any amplifier before purchasing it to get an idea of how much of an improvement can be expected. Also, I use speakers for music as well as movies and games. So a 5 channel amp would be preferable if it is not inferior in quality than getting a 2 and 3 channels separately.

Some manufactures offer a 30 day money back guarantee (like Emotiva)...otherwise if you get it from a local vendor ask them what their return policy is.....

Most will let you audition them with speakers they have on-site, but they might not let you bring in your own speakers....

Plus you really want to give yourself some time (couple days for sure) to listen to the new amp to see how it sounds with music, movies, ect....

Simply doing a couple mins of listening may not be enough.

Also look at used amps as if you dont like it and cant return it there is a pretty decent market for used amps (depending on manufacture)

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

Adding a external amp will yield better control but it's not going to change the overall sound quality much. It will change due to the speaker will get the current it needs but sound "quality" comes from the preamp.
.

I have to respectably disagree Dan. While true to an extent, an amp can change the SQ you get in the end,along with cables,source. Everything in the chain matters. If it didn't, then you would still be using the red and white interconnects that came with your RCA cd player.
If the integra isn't for the OP, cool, but I would think futher investigation into setup, associated gear, cables, room, may warrant a look before kicking the integra down the road. The upper end receivers have a vast array of adjustments that can effect the SQ.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

I have to respectably disagree Dan. While true to an extent, an amp can change the SQ you get in the end,along with cables,source. Everything in the chain matters. If it didn't, then you would still be using the red and white interconnects that came with your RCA cd player.
If the integra isn't for the OP, cool, but I would think futher investigation into setup, associated gear, cables, room, may warrant a look before kicking the integra down the road. The upper end receivers have a vast array of adjustments that can effect the SQ.

Over the years I have done this many many times. The end result is always the same. The actual "sound quality" that was their without the amp remains. To hear this for yourself, use a receiver to a pair of speakers , then add a nice amp with nice IC's good quality. Listen both ways , the sonic signature remains of the preamp.
To be more clear on what I am saying is if the given receiver is under powered like in this case , dynamic range will increase when adding an amp. Now at this point one can say Yes the sound has changed due to the fact that the dynamics are their , sonic misses from the receiver will not be present with just adding an amp. The IC's need to be good enough to retain the level of sonic's the receivers preamp has so this selection needs careful attention. The sonic's of the amp will also play a small role is "change of the sound" at this point but not as much as one would think.
The bottom line here is finding out the issues with this current system and finding ways to help improve overall performance. Adding amps to this project is a step in the right direction "if" the sound quality of the receiver's preamp is except able. This is really the main question not if adding amps will make a sonic difference. This could be true or not from what point of view.

tonyb

Dan, I have done just that with a receiver,and with the amp and associated cables, the SQ was totally different. Not by a little either.

Regardless, if the OP wants to push a full LSI system off the integra, he's asking for poor results. I would strongly suggest moving to the RTIA series if he just wants to push everything with a receiver. SQ...he may have to play around with the settings, re-read the manual, maybe swap out some cables here and there, to get the most out of it. In the end, he may still kick it down the road and thats ok too. Sometimes gear just doesn't match ones ears.

DON73

nlysh wrote: »

I wish I could return it.. too late unfortunately.

I'd go back to the store and talk to the manager. The salesperson sold you a receiver he should have known was not the one you needed to power your speakers. My local Integra dealer would work to satisfy me. Maybe your's will if you talk to them.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

Dan, I have done just that with a receiver,and with the amp and associated cables, the SQ was totally different. Not by a little either.

Regardless, if the OP wants to push a full LSI system off the integra, he's asking for poor results. I would strongly suggest moving to the RTIA series if he just wants to push everything with a receiver. SQ...he may have to play around with the settings, re-read the manual, maybe swap out some cables here and there, to get the most out of it. In the end, he may still kick it down the road and thats ok too. Sometimes gear just doesn't match ones ears.

I totally agree. RTIA series would absolutely yield much better results over the LSI's on the Integra and no external amp will be required.
Yes sometimes gear doesn't match ones ears or connected devices.

Good luck my friend with whatever you decide to do to improve your system. Hopefully all this will be enough for you to make a good decision.