Does speaker wire length matter ?
Comments
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The only thing that bothers me in regards to Roger Russell's website is that it's often quoted as a definitive answer to all things cable related. I understand his theory about it all even if I don't agree with half of it from a general perspective, based on my own experience. He didn't just fall off a turnip truck, nor did I.
You shouldn't spend your hard earned money based on any one opinion, including Mr. Russells'. If you don't educate yourself on both sides, since there are sides to this issue unfortunately, then you're missing out on a lot of what makes this hobby so engaging and frustrating.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Well said Mark.
I think part of the problem is as you say, people look for definitive answers in a subjective field. Then walk away even more confused on the subject. Audio is more or less a trial and error type of thing. You have to be willing to try different things to see what floats your boat. What works for Roger Russell, may not work for you in your environment. Think of it as an exploratory journey. Nothing was ever discovered by sitting still. Except ants...maybe.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Agreed Tony. This hobby is far too subjective and objective to place much emphasis on the results in anything but a general view. It's all opinion when it comes to the ears.
The manufactured object of our fascination is easy and it's design is very tangible if not exact science. I love and hate this stuff.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
I've always wondered if Rodger was to write this paper today he'd have the same views. Remember, this piece was written maybe 30 years ago. While the hard science numbers may still be accurate, the technological improvements and designs have certainly changed, perhaps affecting the sound to some degree as some of us believe.
We didn't have the Internet 20 years ago, nor was a heart transplant believed possible in 1967.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
I've always wondered if Rodger was to write this paper today he'd have the same views. Remember, this piece was written maybe 30 years ago. While the hard science numbers may still be accurate, the technological improvements and designs have certainly changed, perhaps affecting the sound to some degree as some of us believe.
We didn't have the Internet 20 years ago, nor was a heart transplant believed possible in 1967.
Gordon
He quotes articles from 2001, so I don't think it's quite 30 years old. He still updates the site as well, homepage says last updated 3-2-11. -
He quotes articles from 2001, so I don't think it's quite 30 years old. He still updates the site as well, homepage says last updated 3-2-11.
OK, I'll bite. Can you provide a link to the homepage and not just the "wire" page? I'd like to read it. You'll find I'm not very confrontational and would enjoy the read.
Gordon2 Channel -
Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8) -
Just use the length you need for each speaker, don't worry about any of them being the same length, at those lengths, it won't make an audible difference.
So just don't worry about anything, because nothing matters, right :rolleyes:
I wish I could be William, I really do, but I have found that EVERYTHING matters.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
OK, I'll bite. Can you provide a link to the homepage and not just the "wire" page? I'd like to read it. You'll find I'm not very confrontational and would enjoy the read.
Gordon
Sure.
http://www.roger-russell.com/ -
inspiredsports wrote: »So just don't worry about anything, because nothing matters, right :rolleyes:
I wish I could be William, I really do, but I have found that EVERYTHING matters.
Nice strawman. Carry on. -
Nice strawman. Carry on.
Will do, Will'am.
It's alway a pleasure to see your "lack of advice" advice that "wire is wire, amps is amps so just plug it in and it will be the best it can be" nothing matters approach.
I'll bet you use those 10 cent Chinese "Orange Drop" and "Illinois Yellow" caps like they're going out of style, too.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
All we need now is Ethan Winer's opinion on the matter, that would make things lively.:eek::biggrin:Two Channel-SDA SRS 1.2tl's,modded, Cambridge Audio 851w amps(2),Cambridge 851e pre, VPI Scout 1.1 tt, Moon audio phono pre,oppo bd105.
HT-Denon avr3808ci,Carver a-753x,Panasonic ae4000 projector,120" screen,ps3,wii console w/full rockband,Panamax conditioner,dbx120 subharmonic synthesizer,jvc dvd-a player, Polk RTi12 mains,Polk CSiA6 centre, Energy ES-18xl sub,two custom 10" powered subs, Def Tech bp2x surrounds(4),Paradigm monitors-rear(2) -
I'm very new to all this. I stumbled across the roger russel arcticles recently. To my novice mind it seemed to make sense. Maybe I just wanted it to since it would mean I could spend more on speakers and less on wiring. What is wrong with what he's saying? Where can I find more accurate info. Not trying to start an argument, just genuinely want to learn. Thanks guys.
I believe we would all be in a much better place if somebody would kindly delete those RR articles. I think they were written when Earth, Wind, Fire and Water were the basic building blocks of the universe.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
inspiredsports wrote: »Will do, Will'am.
It's alway a pleasure to see your "lack of advice" advice that "wire is wire, amps is amps so just plug it in and it will be the best it can be" nothing matters approach.
I'll bet you use those Chinese "Orange Drop" and "Illinois Yellow" caps like they're going out of style, too.
Of course I've never said that nothing matters or amps are amps. But if you feel the need to just make stuff up, have at it. You're really not worth bothering with. -
....and were off...to the final frontier, another cable debate. Please stop the excitement.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
This thread belongs in the Hall of Shame. Some of the worst advice I have read on this forum is located right here.
Lord help the OP's audio journey, as he's gonna need it after this....~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Speaking of the Hall of shame, how come we don't have a sticky for all those glorious threads that made me wet my shorts,and cry at the same time ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
If your speakers are 10' away and your speaker wire is 8' long then yes, speaker wire length does matter.
Some of the other posts are related to the sound quality produced by cheap wire versus more expensive wire.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
inspiredsports wrote: »I believe we would all be in a much better place if somebody would kindly delete those RR articles. I think they were written when Earth, Wind, Fire and Water were the basic building blocks of the universe.
OK, come on now Greg. They weren't written that long ago. They were probably written when Earth, Wind, and Fire were still recording albums though.:biggrin::biggrin:
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
This thread has remained surprisingly civil considering the subject. I've found that in audio, as in almost all things in life, getting advice or opinions from multiple sources is usually a good idea. Everyone has a bias on any subject, whether they conciously realize it or not, so using multiple sources for advice/opinion can smooth out the bias curve. In the end, in this hobby, and all of life, it ultimately comes down to you making well informed educated decisions if you want a good outcome. And even then it doesn't always work that well and trial and error wins.SDA-1C (full mods)
Carver TFM-55
NAD 1130 Pre-amp
Rega Planar 3 TT/Shelter 501 MkII
The Clamp
Revox A77 Mk IV Dolby reel to reel
Thorens TD160/Mission 774 arm/Stanton 881S Shibata
Nakamichi CR7 Cassette Deck
Rotel RCD-855 with modified tube output stage
Cambridge Audio DACmagic Plus
ADC Soundshaper 3 EQ
Ben's IC's
Nitty Gritty 1.5FI RCM -
Mr. Russell's explanation of the facts regarding speaker wire is undoubtedly the most cited on the internet and has helped numerous new listeners over the past few years to avoid the wire scams which pollute our hobby.
The fact that some statement is widely cited does not make it credible or true.
Has Mr. Russell published any scientific measurements (e.g. noise spectrum analysis) that show the noise performance of all speaker wire is essentially the same? Rather than stereotyping all audiophiles as lunatic fringe status seekers, it would seem that such a scientific study would go a long way toward establishing his credibility in this area.
In cable noise studies that I posted on this forum, I demonstrated that the noise signature and audio signal distortion was different for various speaker cables. See figures 17-22 of this thread: The AI-1 Dreadnought Project Pt.1.
Similar results with speaker cables were published in these papers:
Philip Newell et al, "The Effects of Various Types of Cables on the Performance of High Frequency Loudspeakers", Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, Vol. 24, Part 8, Reproduced Sound 18 Conference, Stratford-upon-Avon, UK, Nov. 2002.
Sergio Castro et al, "Loudspeaker Cables for High Frequency Transducers A Further Assessment", Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, Vol. 25, Part 8, Reproduced Sound 19 Conference, Oxford, UK, Nov. 2003.Contrary claims abound, but these have failed to pass the (double blind listening)test.
Which tests in particular are you referring to? Were the tests appropriately setup and administered under realistic listening conditions? The reason I ask is because I have noticed that double blind tests in every other field of science (e.g. medicine, food, beverage, etc.) are administered under conditions representative of the way the item under test would be administered to actual consumers. Double blind audio test proponents don't seem to believe that the rule of realistic and representative test administration applies to them. Do you have evidence to the contrary?Well said and good advice! Good quality cable need not be expensive.
Who, on this forum or anywhere else, said that good quality cable had to be expensive? I think rational people realize that good quality cables, amps, speakers, etc. can be found at many different price levels.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
My mains and center are run the same length of wire, but the surrounds are whatever length they need to be to get the job done.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
The only thing that bothers me in regards to Roger Russell's website is that it's often quoted as a definitive answer to all things cable related. I understand his theory about it all even if I don't agree with half of it from a general perspective, based on my own experience. He didn't just fall off a turnip truck, nor did I.
You shouldn't spend your hard earned money based on any one opinion, including Mr. Russells'. If you don't educate yourself on both sides, since there are sides to this issue unfortunately, then you're missing out on a lot of what makes this hobby so engaging and frustrating.
Doesn't RR use some uber expensive wiring in the speakers he builds? That would tend to negate his position that wires don't matter IMHO...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Doesn't RR use some uber expensive wiring in the speakers he builds? That would tend to negate his position that wires don't matter IMHO...
His answer is, "Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good."
He is a hypocrite and afraid to stand upon his convictions, yet those very convictions are thrown out there every time this topic comes up.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
inspiredsports wrote: »His answer is, "Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good."
He is a hypocrite and afraid to stand upon his convictions, yet those very convictions are thrown out there every time this topic comes up.
Then he should offer a cheaper version with hardware store wire, and let people A/B them.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Who, on this forum or anywhere else, said that good quality cable had to be expensive? I think rational people realize that good quality cables, amps, speakers, etc. can be found at many different price levels.[/QUOTE]
True. If anything, I've recommended Signal Cable 100x more than MIT....and I rarely if at all have actually even recommended MIT directly. I usually mention Joe Abrams and let the buyer decide the rest. The MIT's I've bought have been in the $200/pair range(interconnects) and while that isn't normal I guess....is it really that crazy given the other items we buy to fullfill this hobby and love? It's a pretty modest price in my book.
Check out eBay sometimes and what ppl are willing to spend on collection items, hobbies, gifts and etc etc. It's far more madness than the audio suggestions I've seen here don't you thnk DK?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
For nice sounding, well built entry level cables I always recommend Signal Cable and if you're handy Canare Star Quad raw speaker cable is very hard to beat for the $$$. The above are better sounding than anything mono price offers and still reasonably priced.
I use the Canare in my office rig and up until I found a great deal on MIT's I used Signal Analog II I/C's. Anyone who reads my posts knows I'm a huge MIT fan and they are worth every penny, except for some those pennies are just too much $$$. Or for some rigs using high performance cables doesn't make sense because a budget minded system won't always reap the benefits of a higher end cable.
You can get excellent performance from these types of inexpensive audio products so whomever said good quality cable has to be expensive needs to do some experimenting."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
All we need now is Ethan Winer's opinion on the matter, that would make things lively.:eek::biggrin:
Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin: -
Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin:
It figures you would post that.:rolleyes:Two Channel-SDA SRS 1.2tl's,modded, Cambridge Audio 851w amps(2),Cambridge 851e pre, VPI Scout 1.1 tt, Moon audio phono pre,oppo bd105.
HT-Denon avr3808ci,Carver a-753x,Panasonic ae4000 projector,120" screen,ps3,wii console w/full rockband,Panamax conditioner,dbx120 subharmonic synthesizer,jvc dvd-a player, Polk RTi12 mains,Polk CSiA6 centre, Energy ES-18xl sub,two custom 10" powered subs, Def Tech bp2x surrounds(4),Paradigm monitors-rear(2) -
Or for some rigs using high performance cables doesn't make sense because a budget minded system won't always reap the benefits of a higher end cable.
.
Bingo....HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin:
http://www.herronaudio.com/images/Measurements.pdf
Includes a statement from George Cardas stating he's able to measure the distortion in different cables. I'm more inclined to believe George, since he has actual numbers backing him up, as opposed to designing test conditions designed to fail.Turntable: Empire 208
Arm: Rega 300
Cart: Shelter 501 III
Phono Pre: dsachs consulting
Digital: Marantz SACD 30n
Pre: Conrad Johnson ET3 SE
Amp: Conrad Johnson Premier 350
Cables: Cardas Neutral Reference
Speakers: SDA 2.3TL, heavily modified