Does speaker wire length matter ?

24

Comments

  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2011
    The only thing that bothers me in regards to Roger Russell's website is that it's often quoted as a definitive answer to all things cable related. I understand his theory about it all even if I don't agree with half of it from a general perspective, based on my own experience. He didn't just fall off a turnip truck, nor did I.

    You shouldn't spend your hard earned money based on any one opinion, including Mr. Russells'. If you don't educate yourself on both sides, since there are sides to this issue unfortunately, then you're missing out on a lot of what makes this hobby so engaging and frustrating.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,988
    edited March 2011
    Well said Mark.
    I think part of the problem is as you say, people look for definitive answers in a subjective field. Then walk away even more confused on the subject. Audio is more or less a trial and error type of thing. You have to be willing to try different things to see what floats your boat. What works for Roger Russell, may not work for you in your environment. Think of it as an exploratory journey. Nothing was ever discovered by sitting still. Except ants...maybe.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2011
    Agreed Tony. This hobby is far too subjective and objective to place much emphasis on the results in anything but a general view. It's all opinion when it comes to the ears.

    The manufactured object of our fascination is easy and it's design is very tangible if not exact science. I love and hate this stuff.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited March 2011
    I've always wondered if Rodger was to write this paper today he'd have the same views. Remember, this piece was written maybe 30 years ago. While the hard science numbers may still be accurate, the technological improvements and designs have certainly changed, perhaps affecting the sound to some degree as some of us believe.

    We didn't have the Internet 20 years ago, nor was a heart transplant believed possible in 1967.

    Gordon
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,781
    edited March 2011
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    I've always wondered if Rodger was to write this paper today he'd have the same views. Remember, this piece was written maybe 30 years ago. While the hard science numbers may still be accurate, the technological improvements and designs have certainly changed, perhaps affecting the sound to some degree as some of us believe.

    We didn't have the Internet 20 years ago, nor was a heart transplant believed possible in 1967.

    Gordon

    He quotes articles from 2001, so I don't think it's quite 30 years old. He still updates the site as well, homepage says last updated 3-2-11.
  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited March 2011
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    He quotes articles from 2001, so I don't think it's quite 30 years old. He still updates the site as well, homepage says last updated 3-2-11.

    OK, I'll bite. Can you provide a link to the homepage and not just the "wire" page? I'd like to read it. You'll find I'm not very confrontational and would enjoy the read.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited March 2011
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Just use the length you need for each speaker, don't worry about any of them being the same length, at those lengths, it won't make an audible difference.

    So just don't worry about anything, because nothing matters, right :rolleyes:

    I wish I could be William, I really do, but I have found that EVERYTHING matters.
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,781
    edited March 2011
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    OK, I'll bite. Can you provide a link to the homepage and not just the "wire" page? I'd like to read it. You'll find I'm not very confrontational and would enjoy the read.

    Gordon

    Sure.

    http://www.roger-russell.com/
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,781
    edited March 2011
    So just don't worry about anything, because nothing matters, right :rolleyes:

    I wish I could be William, I really do, but I have found that EVERYTHING matters.

    Nice strawman. Carry on.
  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited March 2011
    WilliamM2 wrote: »
    Nice strawman. Carry on.

    Will do, Will'am.

    It's alway a pleasure to see your "lack of advice" advice that "wire is wire, amps is amps so just plug it in and it will be the best it can be" nothing matters approach.

    I'll bet you use those 10 cent Chinese "Orange Drop" and "Illinois Yellow" caps like they're going out of style, too.
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  • allstock
    allstock Posts: 136
    edited March 2011
    All we need now is Ethan Winer's opinion on the matter, that would make things lively.:eek::biggrin:
    Two Channel-SDA SRS 1.2tl's,modded, Cambridge Audio 851w amps(2),Cambridge 851e pre, VPI Scout 1.1 tt, Moon audio phono pre,oppo bd105.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited March 2011
    polkskier wrote: »
    I'm very new to all this. I stumbled across the roger russel arcticles recently. To my novice mind it seemed to make sense. Maybe I just wanted it to since it would mean I could spend more on speakers and less on wiring. What is wrong with what he's saying? Where can I find more accurate info. Not trying to start an argument, just genuinely want to learn. Thanks guys.

    I believe we would all be in a much better place if somebody would kindly delete those RR articles. I think they were written when Earth, Wind, Fire and Water were the basic building blocks of the universe.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,781
    edited March 2011
    Will do, Will'am.

    It's alway a pleasure to see your "lack of advice" advice that "wire is wire, amps is amps so just plug it in and it will be the best it can be" nothing matters approach.

    I'll bet you use those Chinese "Orange Drop" and "Illinois Yellow" caps like they're going out of style, too.

    Of course I've never said that nothing matters or amps are amps. But if you feel the need to just make stuff up, have at it. You're really not worth bothering with.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,988
    edited March 2011
    ....and were off...to the final frontier, another cable debate. Please stop the excitement.
    HT SYSTEM-
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    Cables-
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,178
    edited March 2011
    This thread belongs in the Hall of Shame. Some of the worst advice I have read on this forum is located right here.

    Lord help the OP's audio journey, as he's gonna need it after this....
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,988
    edited March 2011
    Speaking of the Hall of shame, how come we don't have a sticky for all those glorious threads that made me wet my shorts,and cry at the same time ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited March 2011
    If your speakers are 10' away and your speaker wire is 8' long then yes, speaker wire length does matter.

    Some of the other posts are related to the sound quality produced by cheap wire versus more expensive wire.
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited March 2011
    I believe we would all be in a much better place if somebody would kindly delete those RR articles. I think they were written when Earth, Wind, Fire and Water were the basic building blocks of the universe.

    OK, come on now Greg. They weren't written that long ago. They were probably written when Earth, Wind, and Fire were still recording albums though.:biggrin::biggrin:

    Greg
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  • Fongolio
    Fongolio Posts: 3,516
    edited March 2011
    This thread has remained surprisingly civil considering the subject. I've found that in audio, as in almost all things in life, getting advice or opinions from multiple sources is usually a good idea. Everyone has a bias on any subject, whether they conciously realize it or not, so using multiple sources for advice/opinion can smooth out the bias curve. In the end, in this hobby, and all of life, it ultimately comes down to you making well informed educated decisions if you want a good outcome. And even then it doesn't always work that well and trial and error wins.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited March 2011
    John K. wrote: »
    Mr. Russell's explanation of the facts regarding speaker wire is undoubtedly the most cited on the internet and has helped numerous new listeners over the past few years to avoid the wire scams which pollute our hobby.

    The fact that some statement is widely cited does not make it credible or true.

    Has Mr. Russell published any scientific measurements (e.g. noise spectrum analysis) that show the noise performance of all speaker wire is essentially the same? Rather than stereotyping all audiophiles as lunatic fringe status seekers, it would seem that such a scientific study would go a long way toward establishing his credibility in this area.

    In cable noise studies that I posted on this forum, I demonstrated that the noise signature and audio signal distortion was different for various speaker cables. See figures 17-22 of this thread: The AI-1 Dreadnought Project Pt.1.

    Similar results with speaker cables were published in these papers:

    Philip Newell et al, "The Effects of Various Types of Cables on the Performance of High Frequency Loudspeakers", Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, Vol. 24, Part 8, Reproduced Sound 18 Conference, Stratford-upon-Avon, UK, Nov. 2002.

    Sergio Castro et al, "Loudspeaker Cables for High Frequency Transducers A Further Assessment", Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, Vol. 25, Part 8, Reproduced Sound 19 Conference, Oxford, UK, Nov. 2003.
    John K. wrote: »
    Contrary claims abound, but these have failed to pass the (double blind listening)test.

    Which tests in particular are you referring to? Were the tests appropriately setup and administered under realistic listening conditions? The reason I ask is because I have noticed that double blind tests in every other field of science (e.g. medicine, food, beverage, etc.) are administered under conditions representative of the way the item under test would be administered to actual consumers. Double blind audio test proponents don't seem to believe that the rule of realistic and representative test administration applies to them. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Well said and good advice! Good quality cable need not be expensive.

    Who, on this forum or anywhere else, said that good quality cable had to be expensive? I think rational people realize that good quality cables, amps, speakers, etc. can be found at many different price levels.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,454
    edited March 2011
    My mains and center are run the same length of wire, but the surrounds are whatever length they need to be to get the job done.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,454
    edited March 2011
    dorokusai wrote: »
    The only thing that bothers me in regards to Roger Russell's website is that it's often quoted as a definitive answer to all things cable related. I understand his theory about it all even if I don't agree with half of it from a general perspective, based on my own experience. He didn't just fall off a turnip truck, nor did I.

    You shouldn't spend your hard earned money based on any one opinion, including Mr. Russells'. If you don't educate yourself on both sides, since there are sides to this issue unfortunately, then you're missing out on a lot of what makes this hobby so engaging and frustrating.

    Doesn't RR use some uber expensive wiring in the speakers he builds? That would tend to negate his position that wires don't matter IMHO...
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited March 2011
    Doesn't RR use some uber expensive wiring in the speakers he builds? That would tend to negate his position that wires don't matter IMHO...

    His answer is, "Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good."

    He is a hypocrite and afraid to stand upon his convictions, yet those very convictions are thrown out there every time this topic comes up.
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    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited March 2011
    His answer is, "Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good."

    He is a hypocrite and afraid to stand upon his convictions, yet those very convictions are thrown out there every time this topic comes up.

    Then he should offer a cheaper version with hardware store wire, and let people A/B them.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited March 2011
    Who, on this forum or anywhere else, said that good quality cable had to be expensive? I think rational people realize that good quality cables, amps, speakers, etc. can be found at many different price levels.[/QUOTE]

    True. If anything, I've recommended Signal Cable 100x more than MIT....and I rarely if at all have actually even recommended MIT directly. I usually mention Joe Abrams and let the buyer decide the rest. The MIT's I've bought have been in the $200/pair range(interconnects) and while that isn't normal I guess....is it really that crazy given the other items we buy to fullfill this hobby and love? It's a pretty modest price in my book.

    Check out eBay sometimes and what ppl are willing to spend on collection items, hobbies, gifts and etc etc. It's far more madness than the audio suggestions I've seen here don't you thnk DK?
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,202
    edited March 2011
    For nice sounding, well built entry level cables I always recommend Signal Cable and if you're handy Canare Star Quad raw speaker cable is very hard to beat for the $$$. The above are better sounding than anything mono price offers and still reasonably priced.

    I use the Canare in my office rig and up until I found a great deal on MIT's I used Signal Analog II I/C's. Anyone who reads my posts knows I'm a huge MIT fan and they are worth every penny, except for some those pennies are just too much $$$. Or for some rigs using high performance cables doesn't make sense because a budget minded system won't always reap the benefits of a higher end cable.

    You can get excellent performance from these types of inexpensive audio products so whomever said good quality cable has to be expensive needs to do some experimenting.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited March 2011
    allstock wrote: »
    All we need now is Ethan Winer's opinion on the matter, that would make things lively.:eek::biggrin:

    Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin:
  • allstock
    allstock Posts: 136
    edited March 2011
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin:

    It figures you would post that.:rolleyes:
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,988
    edited March 2011
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Or for some rigs using high performance cables doesn't make sense because a budget minded system won't always reap the benefits of a higher end cable.

    .

    Bingo....
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • quadzilla
    quadzilla Posts: 1,543
    edited March 2011
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Here you go... Straight from a 2009 AES session on Audio Myths. It's an hour long (FYI).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ:biggrin:

    http://www.herronaudio.com/images/Measurements.pdf

    Includes a statement from George Cardas stating he's able to measure the distortion in different cables. I'm more inclined to believe George, since he has actual numbers backing him up, as opposed to designing test conditions designed to fail.
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