Need advice on system configuration

sntnsupermen131

pbd...i think all 6cyl in jeeps(well in wranglers, tj's, cj's etc) come with a straight 6...i know my friend has one
i had an old cj that had one
and theyre geared REALLY low...they get about just as **** mileage as i do...and thats b/c im more aerodynamic too...
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

john, you're an oracle of knowledge...

i had been under the impression jeep motors for cherokee and GC were teh same availble ones to the durango / dakota. sorry for the lack of doing my homework before making the assumption.

i drove a couple GC Laredo's with the 360 when i was doing importing... while it may have been optional (i dunno??), it was a reasonably frequent enough thing to see.

the 318 (5.2L) didn't belong in any jeep -- i stand by my statement that its a tank of a motor, but its just not anthing i'd want in a jeep... its not quick on acceleration so its not a great "car-ish" type get around town motor... and its not great on really throwin the hammer down on power either so it cant be too good for "jeeping" a jeep. i dont know why they went and put it in the intrepid "sport" model...

the 360 is much more suited to it -- it has more get up and go for around town and it is better for pulling **** -- the guy who i bought my sport lid hard tonneau cover from has a couple cool mopars (lucky ****) one of which is a GC that he uses to pull his smaller RV with. while the back end sags a bit, he seems to be able to trek all around with it. guy runs a pretty big RV/camping store in addition to selling the truck accessories out the back door (not illegal "back door" , just not his main source of income).

have u seen a lot of the 4.7's yet - u spoke of them blowing gaskets?? i've yet to actually really spend any true time with one, but the one i spun around the block made me want to hurl. and the under the hood presence is strongly lacking... its like a hamster in a wheel the size of a mack truck tire.
its a stupid engine... one which i loathe even more than the 5.2L... i went in for a power steering pump for my truck a while back and salesman was talkin to me while i was waiting for the verdict on whether or not warranty was gonna cover it... he's all talkin up teh new 2k2 ram with the 4.7 ... so we drive it around... he's all like "whatta u think"... i'm like "if my truck had rot holes in the doors and didn't start, i wouldn't take this one if you offered me a straight up trade". at the time i was still getting over my displeasure with the body style change as well, so taht didn't help any (which has grown on me over time, i'm liking it a lot more now - had to get used to it).

inline six tho? hmm... does anyone still make one of those besides for the jeeps? -- did lexus make one i thought ??

seachange44

For more background on the Jeep engine... From what I understand the Cherokee in the eighties came with a 2.5 liter V6 with the option of the high output 4.0 inline six. When the Grand Cherokee came out, I believe in 1993, the inline six was the base engine and a V8 was the upgrade. I believe Jeep did make a 5.9 V8 for the 1998 Grand Cherokee limited which was the last model year of that body style. The 4.7 liter V8 is the upgrade engine in the 1999-present Grand Cherokee putting out 235 horsepower-it works very, very well in the Grand Cherokee, althogh not as reliable as the six, I'm not sure about other vehicles it might be in. They shaved off two cylinders and put a 3.7 liter variant of the engine in the Jeep Libety (it's the Cherokee in England!) The inline six in my car puts out 190 horse power, they managed to increase it to 195 for the new Grand Cherokee body style.

If I'm not mistaken the 1993 Lexus GS 300 came with an inline six, and I believe BMW uses an inline six to this day in the 3 series.

I hope I'm not boring anyone:rolleyes:

PoweredByDodge

i am wondering something -- if the 4.7L v8 jeep motor is the same as the 4.7L ram motor ?? if so -- how the hell did they cal lit a "new engine" in 2k2 ? (stupid mopar). and if the current incarnation of the 4.7 was initially a jeep motor then that explains a lot about why it sucks in the trucks.

if not -- then what a total waste of a production line... building two different deisgn motors of the same size...

from your's and john's seeming dislike of the motor, and my own hatred of the 4.7, i propose we collect them all and melt them down for metal and build 440's.

the old GCs were ballsy little suckers.... i was always partial to teh boxy cherokee's though.. something about them screams "hi, i'm a jeep, i'm cool and not **** and trendy like the Liberty".


... on a side note -- i had "motor shock" today -- i opened up the hood of my truck for the first time in a while -- i'm trying to determine how i can get a larger alt in there... well i looked at the engine just like standing back and lookin at it -- it looked bloody TINY!... i've been staring at that damned cadillac motor for about a month now and its gotten my perception screwed up -- i've got a 360 cubic inch engine and i think its "small". lol.

seachange44

I would imagine that it's the same 4.7L motor all around. Chrysler would probably not develop two different engines. Car companies are known lately for dropping the same engine in many different cars, and that's probably a good thing. Since Japanese cars seem to be more reliable, it's good that American companies keep it simple. From what I gathered, the Cadillac Escalade has the Corvette engine, tuned for a truck of course, that's kind of interesting.

On a side note, has anyone seen the CD player and meter module from McIntosh, they're extremely classy and it's probably the best sounding CD player available because it has 'dual' Burr-Brown processors-but the meter module that can be installed with the CD player is really classy.

Getting back to the original subject for a moment-since Polk recommends setting the crossovers at 80 or 85, I'm not sure what they recommend exactly-does this setting produce bass or is it a setting that implies that you have a subwoofer, if you don't use a subwoofer would the setting be different?

PoweredByDodge

85 assumes you're using a sub. or if it doesn't - then it ought to.

85's pretty non-bassy... but in a sub system, 85-100 is what u aim for out of your highs.


anywho -- try for around 65 instead, and keep your wits about you, making sure that nothing starts to rattle, or break up, or distort. with a little patience you can drop that crossover as low as possible and only sacrifice a little bit of loudness (wont be able to throw it as high), but get some good bass support in exchange.

seachange44

It sounds like people in this forum have had good luck with Sound Domain, is this true? I've just found the CD player I want for like $60 dollars less than where I was originally going to buy it. Just for reference it is the Pioneer DEH-P77DH 1.5 din. Any advice.:)

seachange44

I have yet another question. Has anyone had any experience with the Phoenix Gold Octane amplifiers? They're dirt cheap for quite a bit of wattage. Alright bye.:rolleyes:

PoweredByDodge

sounddomain is good as long as u stay on their **** -- sometimes they're slow to ship -- but other than that, they're allright everything is new in box unless otherwise noted as a refurb, and everything comes will full MFG warranty as they are authorized to sell everything they sell -- i am satisfied with them.

far as the octane amps --- NO NO NO NO NO -- i was gonna buy one... then i realized sounddomain's specs are wrong.

you MUST read phoenix gold's website before you buy an octane amp.

the octane is their low end ... and the power ratings are MAX not RMS (on sounddomain's site). the one that's 80 or 85 x 4 is actually like 40 x 4 rms. sounddomain made a boo boo -- i was gonna order one, noticed this discrepancy and quickly removed my order and instead got an Xtant 50 x 4 (not much power but clean as hell and was on sale for 200 bucks - A4004T).

PG's mid line (good) amps are the Tantrum series. the titaniums are damn nice lookin as well but mucho dinero.

seachange44

Don't be too mad at sounddomain for posting incorrect specs-that's how the Phoenix Gold Octane page displays them. Unless you download the pdf of the instruction manual, it only shows the maximum power rating-which is more than a little misleading. Even still, at onlinecarstereo.com the Octane amps are still a decent price, especially for a nice five channel. Phoenix Gold seems like a very good company, even on the low end-but I've never heard any of the Octane amps so I don't know.

PoweredByDodge

PG makes great stuff... they're a step up from an RF / MTX, but still the same or just a hair more on the price scale... which wins them points in my book.

seachange44

Well, I ordered my equipment. I ordered the Pioneer 1.5 din CD player from sounddomain and the Orion 8004 amp from onlinecarstereo.com. I was glad to find onlinecarstereo to be a member of the BBB. People should be careful, though, they are very clear about restocking fees if items are returned.

I am still very concerned about drawing 400 watts from my engine. Although a Polk technician explained to me that it depends on where the crossover is positioned. I guess if I was running four small subwoofers it would draw a lot more current than two sets of components.

I found a very comprehensive diagnostic page of the Infinity system for the 99-up Grand Cherokee, even though I drive a 96. The amp is 180 watts, who knows if that's rms or not, it must be. There are 6X9s in the front and 6.5 in the rear doors, that's odd. The speakers in the front do produce quite a bit of punch, whether it's "fake" or not I don't know. Someone in my family has a 2000 GC with the Infinity system and it's pretty good, except for the tweeters, they suck really bad. If one had plans to replace speakers in this configuration I would imagine they would use the component 6X9 speakers from Infinity-aftermarket Infinity-I'm pretty sure that it's one of the only component 6X9 systems out there, I wonder if they have better bass than the regular reference 6X9.

I just recently found out that my anemic Pioneer 2 channel amp is only pushing 40X2, not 50-that means it's only pushing 20 watts tops to each of my ex3560 speakers, that's pretty pathetic, but that will soon change, I hope.

Has anyone heard the optional McIntosh system in the Subaru Outback? That seems kind of exciting, maybe not quite aftermarket quality but McIntosh nonetheless.:cool:

sntnsupermen131

youre worried about 400 watts?
you have nothing to worry about
im drawing 1500watts(rms) and all i have to help the electrical system is a 1 farad capacitor
now unless your alternator totally sucks and youre running your car off a 6volt battery...im sure youll be fine
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

nobody wants to use the current calculator -- i write a script... nodbody uses it -- sheesh!!!!!! lolol....

400 w rms / 0.65 ( typical efficiency of a class AB amp) = 615.4

615.4 / 13.8 volts (in mr. jeep there) = 44.6 = 45 amps.

typically you will draw 45 amps when pumping the stereo system at full power.

if you have a 117 amp alt - then that's like a drop in the bucket.

and as far as running subs being different -- the difference is negligable... i understand the basic idea - that it takes less current to produce a high voltage high frequency wave than to produce a high voltage low frequency wave...

but in the grand scheme of things, unless you are running just 4 tweeters off that amp, then running 4 100 watt subs from 80 hertz down to the base frequency of the amp would suck up as much current as running 4 100 watt components or coaxials from 80 hertz up to 20,000 hertz.

actually -- the increased bandwidth ought make up for the decreased current necessary for high freq ****.

100 watts is 100 watts, unless we're talking about something disgustingly advanced, which we aren't.

400 w is more than safe for your car...

i'm still runnin 3,500 watts off a 117 A nippon-denso stock alt and two batteries... not the smartest thing i've ever done, but we're goin on 6 months or more with no problems... still got a 136 that needs to see the scrap heap.

that infinity system is probably rms power -- 180 / 6 speakers = 30 watts rms / channel. that's do-able for a headunit or an externally amped stock system. certainly not worth the price tag though... you can do much better for much less.

if you wanted bassy fronts you could have used the polk EXIII 6x9 and then snipped the wire to the tweeter, mounted a component tweet up top and ran the crossover... have to screw with the sensitivity adjustment for the tweet, but it'd be bassier probably -- then again what you have is pretty bassy once u juice it up and cross it properly.

....

just a thought -- keep the pioneer amp just in case -- spare amps are good, i've got an optimus 60 x 2 / 200 x 1 rms for a spare -- besides, if u get pissed of not havin a sub you can run the rear speakers off the pioneer amp and run a sub off the bridged rear of the orion.

seachange44

I've actually found that running speakers off of different amplifiers and different wattages makes the sound unmatched. I feel like I'm doing the right thing by buying a 100X4 amp and keeping it quality and maybe adding a subwoofer later.

So while I'm waiting on my shipment I'll ask some dumb questions.

-What's everyone's favorite CD to test with a new system?
-my favorite is Everything But the Girl-Walking Wounded.

-Digable Planets-Blowout Comb is a good way to test bass handling too.

PoweredByDodge

dude -- i have never heard of either one of those....lol... i must live in a music bubble....



for bass -- do be careful when playing this one -- Methods of Mayhem: "Get Naked" and "Proposition F*** You", costarring none other than Fred Durst and Tommy Lee.

for other good stuff ---

- Tori Amos: "The Happy Phantom"
- Billy Joel: "The Piano Man" , "Captain Jack", and "A Matter of Trust"
- Tim McGraw: "Don't Mention Memphis"
- Toby Keith: "Dreamwalkin" ---- I'd never known quite how good this cd muscially sounded until I mentioned to Jstas that I had blown a Quart 6x9 while playing it and he was like "that's a great SQ cd you know" so i "Re-" listened to it a little louder and i was in agreement.
- Kenny Chesney: "I lost It"
- Ozzy Osbourne: "Facing Hell" and "Running Out of Time"
- Metallica: "Die Die Die My Darling" , "Turn the Page", "Unforgiven II"
- Nine Inch Nails: "Starf***ers"
- Rob Zombie: "Dragula"
- Theory of a Dead Man: "Nothing Could Come Between Us"
- Christina Aquilera: "Fighter", "What a Girl Wants"
- Bass Mechanics: "DROP THE KNOB" --- i love this song.
- Amber: "Sexual"
- Jay Z: "Can I Get A"
- LL Cool J: "Phenomenon"
- Sarah McLaughlan: "Angel"
- Randy Travis: "The Valley of Pain", "A Man Ain't Made of Stone", "Spirit of a Boy / Wisdom of a Man"

can you tell i have a very "varied" cd wallet ? lolol



-

seachange44

Excellent to see another Tori fan, maybe not a huge fan but a fan nonetheless. Mother is my favorite song off of Little Earthquakes.

You might like Everything but the Girl, Walking Wounded is their debut electronic CD. Everything they've done up till then was acoustic. So you get this incredible song-writing that could be acoustic with a modern, contemporary, electronic beat-and Tracey Thorn's voice is amazing. One could probably sample it on amazon.:)

seachange44

P.S. Has anyone ever heard of SACD and DVD-Audio coming to aftermarket car audio? That would be fun. The two new formats, namely SACD, can blow the pants off of CDs.

seachange44

Well folks, I've gotten my equipment installed. There are a few bugs that need to be worked out. There is some nasty engine noise, every time I press the gas pedal there is this odd hiss. The installers left the crossovers flat on the amp which absolutely need adjusting. I'm going back tomorrow at 1 to see if we can figure out how to fix the engine hiss and turn up the high pass crossover a bit. On the whole I must say that if I could go back in time I would have marched over to the Jeep dealer and bought the Infinity system as fast as my legs could carry me. I really hope that the amp adjustments will change the sound because so far it is terrible. The bass is not the problem it's the imaging, there isn't any.

The Pioneer head unit is really nice but the EQ settings are totally bizarre. Whatever happened to just bass, treble, and mid settings?

When I went back into the store to tell them about the hiss there was only one person left, everyone had gone home. He made me an appointment for tomorrow and he said "Engine hiss?, well I don't know what to tell you, we don't have these problems with our Alpine amps." I'm thinking, that was the absolute worst thing you could have possibly said to me, especially because engine hiss has everything to do with the quality of the install and nothing to do with the amp, more notably an amp that retails for $750. The guy wasn't an installer or anything, he basically just sat around and answered the phone-but oh Lord, I was not happy.

We'll just see how tomorrow goes:rolleyes:

PoweredByDodge

the hiss is common -- it has several possible causes, but is common and easily fixed... --- and i've heard alpines hiss.

1- bad ground
2- power lines run too close to signal or speaker cables
3- speaker cables run too close to signal cables.

so pull the ground off -- shave the spot down good to bare metal - just putting a screw though is not good enough.

then be sure signal lines are away from power or speaker lines.

that oughta kill your noise issues.

and just note here that a competant installer will test his work for "engine noise" and then move his **** around to get rid of it... its part of installing... so they should not charge you anything to rectify the problem, its their error to begin with.

also -- set your crossovers at like 65 hertz to start with.

set your gain to like half for the fronts and 1/4 for the rears to start with. that'll improve SQ and imaging greatly -- from there you cna play with it -- setting xovers and gains is the task of the listener more than the installer... it is to your preferences that the system must be "tweaked" thus you've gotta tweak it... its a dial dude, it wont bite you...

with some work, you can make your system beat the pants off the factory premium one... patience is a virtue that pays off.

seachange44

I left my car at the installers all day, again-and the problem is twice as bad. They can't figure out what to do. They put in higher quality RCA cables and they said that they narrowed it down to the head unit. The guy told me that when they would move the head unit away from the dash the noise would stop-so I have no idea if there's anything I can do at this point. They told me to call on Monday because they had ordered some noise filters. Has anyone heard of a head unit receiving engine noise like this?

Jstas

Yeah, it could be caused by a number of things. But mostly, I'll bet it's your ignition system. Noise filters aren't going to do anything. It's EM interference from the ignition system which is why the noise changes with the engine speed. Also, check where your drivetrain computer is because that could cause problems too. How do you solve it?

Well, a couple ways can help. Number one, make sure your radio antenna is solidly grounded. If teh radio antenna is grounded close to an engine management system like a computer, ignition module or drivetrain controller, it might be worth it to extend the ground and ground the antenna some place farther away.

Number two, you can cut the wiring harness ground to the head unit and run a ground back to where your amplifier is grounded. That will put the head unit's ground pretty far away from all teh engine management stuff.

Number 3, I have seen these and I know they exist but they are hard to find. Get a head unit sheilding bucket. It may be hard to fit in the slot with the head unit but they can help noise problems alot.

I'll bet that number 1 and 2 will work out best for you and be easiest. I'll advise you not to waste money or time with noise filters. They are only a bandaid to cover up a problem and they rarely work as well as the packaging says they will. Mainly because they too are a source of noise. They are affected by EM intereference and the extra connections needed to install them can introduce even more noise. Totally not worth the time.


To help reduce the engine noise, you may want to ensure that the engine grounding straps are in good condition and anchored to thier grounding points on the engine and frame, securely. You may want to even increase the guage of the grounding strap for the engine too. That can help dissapate the power cycle from the ingnition system that causes the noise. Just do not run the engine without that ground strap in place and secure otherwise, you'll nuke your engine management systems and that is an expensive repair.

PoweredByDodge

i agree -- nix the noise filter idea and start regrounding everything.

install kids = numb-nuts.

what patch cables did they end up putting in now?? monster cable ?? *vomit*

seachange44

You'll all be happy to know that I have officially nixed the noise filter idea. The noise is so bad that there's no way that they could possibly work. I've made an appointment for Monday to reground everything-if there's anything specific I should be telling these people please let me know.

I believe the cables they're using are pro-link. There was pro-link in there before they put better ones in there. I couldn't afford Monster cables because they were eighty dollars, and they didn't charge me for these cables which were forty. Don't lose any sleep over this issue, though, because I'm not terribly concerned about it. The sound is fine, although not nearly as fine as the stock Infinity stereo that goes in the Jeep-I hope that comment didn't make anyone ill but I am officially turned off by aftermarket car audio
:mad:

I would imagine that the "numb nuts" comment was referring to installers in general and/or the installers I've been working with. These people are sort of nice and everything but they are obviously not exempt from the "knowitall" mentality that seems to be running rampant in this industry. As we all know they can be the most arrogant people in the entire universe. The bottom line being that I'm not thrilled about going in on Monday and telling them what's what-but it has to be done. I've suddenly realized that I have no life and that listening to music in the car is one of my only pleasures.

So folks, please continue to keep this place a sanctuary for those of us who don't quite know as much about car audio.:cool: I'll keep everyone posted on this continuing soap-opera that is my car.

PoweredByDodge

ya i was referring to the bulk of retail installers in general

the 75 - 80 dollar set of monster cable wires are junk too -- i thought that's what was in your car... i got a SMALL amount of noise our of some MC patch cables that were a total rip off.

you can get some streetwires zero noise 3.5 - 16 or something foot long 4 channel cables for like 40 bucks at sounddomain.com. -- i normallyswear by the 5.0's but i went cheap in the cadillac -- ran them right along next to the power and speaker wire -- no noise. good little cables -- and at 40 bones for high quality stuff... boom bitty boom.

this may sound dumb - but i'm goin along with john's idea here...

find the source -- so why not eliminate the first one -- disconnect the antenna from the head unit... then, if the noise stops then you know it came from the antennae somehow (ground issues or what not).

if that has no effect, reground the head unit (disconnect factory ground first) -- snag a piece of 16 gauge and ground it straight to the closest solid metal piece -- SOLID... like firewall, not just a random bracket. if that's no good -- run a solid piece of 16 gauge all the way back to the amplifier ground spot and ground the head unit there.

if the head itself is picking up interference... and that cage insulator deal is out of your grasp, i know that heavy duty aluminum foil has been used to insulate patch cables sometimes... i dont see why you couldn't make a little tin foil pocket, jam it in the dash hole, and put the head back in that... see if that helps -- if it fixes it, great, if it helps but not totally but you get the idea that that is the problem -- go hunt down one of the "real" pocket deals.

as much as the retail guys have know it all mentalities, i suppose us forum people do too... the difference however is nobody charges anybody by the hour... and most of us at least have SOME sort of an idea --- which is saying a bit considering the car isn't like here, its all based on conversation / description.

i hate engine whine -- i've only had 2 problems cuse it though -- 1) **** patch cables 2) crossing good patch cables over power lines criss cross back and forth and laying along side.

its a brutal sound -- makes you want to put your fist through the windshield...

i understand your distaste for aftermarket audio -- if i had a first exprience like yours i'd probably have shot somebody.

in the end there is just a few things about aftermarket stuff that makes it worth while over premiums... - structural integrity and build quality, sound quality, frequency response, and loudness.

two of those -- sound quality and freq response, are brutal to get "right", but its usually jsut a matter of dicking around with settings for a few days (or one long couple hour session of sitting / listening).

to some, its just not worth the aggravation (although rest assured, as u do more and more of it - aggravation tends to decrease a good deal). hence why something like only 15% of america's drivers have aftermarket audio... somethin like only half of that actually have "in depth" aftermarket audio. or less.

seachange44

I would like to make the point that I haven't noticed any arrogant attitudes in this forum, that's why I keep coming back. It's educational and non-judgemental-no problems here.:D

Car audio zealots tend to have a one track mind. Every time I've ever been in a car with a two thousand dollar system or what-have-you, it sounds pretty much terrible to me, and they think it's the greatest.

I've found this universal hatred for factory car audio systems and it's starting to sound ridiculous. "Guys" in general have to make a competition out of everything, whether it's who can tie their shoe faster or who has the bigger amp.

This is going to sound totally bizarre to everyone but I have this intense emotional connection to the factory stereo in my cousin's '95 Accord EX, it is fantastic. The upgraded stereo in the '93 Celica convertible is also amazing. I've heard time and time again from car audio fanatics that even though they've never heard the Mark Levinson systems in the new Lexus line-up they probably "suck real bad"-and they'd "rip them out in a minute". That kind of attitude makes it painfully obvious that it's not about the music but some odd competitive ritual. I seriously doubt that the Mark Levinson audio systems in the new Lexus cars suck in the least. I wish people would just admit that even if they could afford a new LS 430 that they're just profoundly bored and have way too much time on their hands. It's okay to be married to a hobby like this, just don't put 'everything' down. :rolleyes:

If I sound bitter about this subject I am-but you have to admit that it's funny and entertaining to a certain extent. :cool:

P.S. Just for a fun, liberating little exercise, whomever would like to post should list at least one factory car audio system that they've enjoyed in some way.:D

sntnsupermen131

well, all ive ever owned is GM vehicles with the regular pos speakers in it
you know..the ones where the magnets weigh less than a pen?
yeah...those...so i havent had any real experience with "premium" systems cept for the bose speakers in corvettes, and for the price, its not worth it
-Cody

Jstas

There is something to like in all stereos. Personally, I've owned Fords. mainly because my uncle was a Ford salesman so I got deals. However, Ford stereos suck. Bottom line. The Mach sound systems are nice but they are peaky in thier frequency response and they aren't consistent and the response is also peaky. A good flat response is what you want.

As far as the high end stock systems liek the Infinity and Mark Levinson stuff, they aren't junk but they are way overpriced for what they are. For the same price as the Mark Levinson system in the Lexus, I could get Nakamichi equipment from a discounter and totally blow away that Mark Levinson system. You really are paying for a name there.

But, as for me personally, I have a very critical ear. I hear things in stereos that other people don't. I also have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking for and I have yet to find a stock system that gives me all of that. Aftermarket stuff is the only place I can find it all and even then, not all the aftermarket stuff has what I look for.

But, if I got a Lexus 430, I would do everything I could NOT to get that Levinson system. I can do way better for much less cost. Infact, I'd be willing to get very nice electronics and put my Polk dB's up against that Mark Levinson system.

The main thing to remember is that a car is not like a home. Very different environments and most of the after market companies have been doing this stuf for a very long time. They have the research and development into not just the equipment but how it reacts to every aspect from acoustics to power supply. Just because a stereo has a fancy name and large price tag doesn't mean they got it right. That's one of the reasons I stand behind Polk Audio. They got it right and I'd gladly dump the highest priced stock system and go for the top of the line Polks.

seachange44

Alright, I can empathize with GM vehicles. GM hasn't exactly made great efforts in recent years to entertain their customers with outstanding audio systems. Bose in unfairly blacklisted for the most part-it's just ironic that the most expensive products Bose makes are the worst, and the least expensive are not bad at all, ie. the lifestyle music systems are usually not worth a dime, but the series IV 201 and 301 stereo speakers which cost 200 and 300 respectively are very impressive. Chrysler has made some positive efforts to improve audio quality, the 1995 Neon, for example, came standard with six speakers and entertained me to the point where I would never consider replacing it.

On the whole it's been the foreign car companies that seem bent on the idea of having great stereo systems, although there have been some stinkers worth mentioning-Subaru in the mid to late nineties had a system that sounded like a broken, abused clock radio, and even people who couldn't care less about music would notice. The cheapest Toyotas a couple of years ago came with some forgettable equipment as well. But they're all learning their lessons of what people want. Even the Echo comes with six speakers and a CD player. The new Scion brand comes with a Pioneer system with six speakers and a CD player standard.

It's a positive step when car companies go to name brands to supply their audio equipment-Subaru with McIntosh, Lexus with Mark Levinson and Nakamichi, BMW with Harman Kardon, Toyota with JBL. When you buy cars with premium stereos out of the gate you don't really pay an arm an a leg for them, that's where the art of the deal comes in. I will admit that when one goes to add to their system at the dealer, the prices are inflated to astronomical levels, that's why I didn't upgrade to the Infinity system in my car in the first place, it's probably seven or eight times more expensive than it should be.

In the end the factory systems I like are warm and consistent. People don't understand that you can only make a CD sound so good, they are now effectively dinosaurs at the dawn of SACD. I just suddenly got the feeling someone might have if they were trying to sell bags of ice for a living at the south pole, but it's just to get people thinking.

P.S. I think I've discovered the main reason that I'm pushing this philosophy. It's because when people like me go to talk to someone about upgrading or choosing a system there's this knee-jerk reaction to dump the factory equipment. The fact is, the people in this forum know exactly what they're doing 99% of the time, and even you guys occasionally run in to problems you can't explain right away. Can you imagine someone like me who's blindly gone into a setup? Not that I haven't done the research but I've never even heard of these problems I've been having. :rolleyes:

Jstas

Well, first off, listing options that a stock stereo comes with is nice, if you like bells and whistles. My stereo is very simple yet complex. It has a tape deck and a CD changer, built in EQ's and the RDS system. That's it though. Nothing fancier than any other radio out there. Hell, the stock stereo had more options than what I have now.

What's the point then? Well, the stock system had a CD player but my current CD player, which is about 8 years old right now, is still light-years ahead of what came stock in my truck in 2001. The quality of my 8 year old Kenwood unit is a billions times better, it has a much cleaner and crisper sound with a higher bit rate D/A converter and a higher signal strength. What does all that mean? Well, the higher the bit rate on the D/A converter, the smoother the frequency curve when converted to analog. Less errors too. That means a cleaner signal source and a higher sensitivity. On top of that, my CD Changer has a wide frequency response range of 10 Hz to 22,000 Hz as compared to the 29-18,000 Hz response of the "premium" stock stereo.

You want something even more stunning? Take apart those high dollar top end systems. Take a look at the speakers. I'll bet dollars to donuts that they have cloth and/or foam surrounds with paper speakers. Paper is nice and ok for home stereos but in a car, it's junk. Doesn't hold up to weather and abuse. My polk speakers are composite polymers with butyl rubber surrounds. They resist distortion and hold up to weather well all the while being accurate, responsive and clear. I probably paid less for my Polks than the guy who gets the Mark Levinson speakers in his lexus and I'll still say that I bet mine sounds better.

So if bells and whistles are your argument for stock systems then, stick with them because that's where it's at. Personally, I don't go for the bells and whistles. I like my adjustability and I like the fact that I can turn up my stereo to rock concert levels and have it still be clear as a bell. I am just flat out NOT going to get that level of adjustability or performance from any stock stereo. On top of that, I spend alot of time in my vehicle and it is a fairly special vehicle to begin with so a nice stereo is in order because I can't listen to the stock crap for hours on end. It actually makes me angry because it can't perform to my demanding standards. The only place I can find that level is in the aftermarket.


As for people knowing what they are doing and you being self-described clueless, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. What I find wrong is that you are giving up so easily. Ask questions, someone will answer and help. We all started out at your level. The thing about some of us is that we have fairly extensive electrical and/or engineering backgrounds so we understand this stuff better than most people. We can make decisions based on facts listed in specs. We also understand how electricity works and it's relationships. It didn't come overnight though. It took me a good 6 years with 2 years of circuits classes in college to get to the point I am at now. But nobody ever said you had to be there. But part of the fun is getting there and learning new things and understanding them.

The problems you are having that make you so highly critical of the aftermarket are not related to the equipment at all. They are totally related to the quality of the installers that did your work. There is a severe lack there and there should be no reason that there is any noise in a modern vehcile. I feel bad for you because I know I could fix the problem and if I had done the install there never would have been a problem to begin with. Don't get soured because some cocky punk kid thinks he knows what he is doing and has the basic fundamental skill to turn a screwdriver or wrench.

Yes, car stereo can be a pain in the ****. You know what though? I'd rather have the aftermarket quality of sound than all the bells and whistles you could imagine. Then again, I don't do this for the bells and whistles or to have the biggest stereo. There is nothing wrong with the size of my anatomy and I don't need any justification to compensate for it. Sometimes it can be fun to be competative at something and I really am. Only, I am competing against the system and working for the best possible sound that my money can buy me. It's called being an audiophile. I'm not interested in bells, whisltes and doodads and gizmos that do everything from futzing with the signal to allowing me to copy 6 tapes, 10 CD's, 5 minidiscs and conjure evil spirits on the 3rd full moon of every other solstice. It's just not going to help. Some of the stuff I have has options that I never use because I have no need for it but had to get it because it came on the model of equipment I bought. A stereo is for listening to. You should get it set to the point that you want and leave it. My problem is that these stock stereos do not allow me to set anything the way I want.