Need advice on system configuration

seachange44 · July 2003

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I have recently installed two sets of Polk EX 3560 components-using one set of tweeters. I am going to install a 1.5 din pioneer deh-p77dh and a new amplifier. Here are the configurations I'm considering

Configuration 1-Alpine V12 5 channel amplifier model mrv-f450-which is rated at 50X4 @4ohm+a built in 200 watt mono amp @4ohm. In this configuration I would add a ten inch alpine type S subwoofer.

Configuration 2-I would simply buy an Orion or Nakamichi 100X4 @4ohm amplifier to power the components-coupled with the new head unit-and I would not use a subwoofer.

I'm just worried that if I buy the alpine, the components will be underpowered, even if I will have nice bass from the subwoofer.

I'm also worried that if I buy a 100X4 amplifier-there won't be nearly enough bass-note that I don't need a huge amount of bass, just a good, rich, punchy bass-I don't need to rattle the windows.

The Polk ex 3560 components are rated at 100 watts rms-300 peak-they don't seem any different than components that ask for 50 watts rms-are they overrated in their power handling?, would 50 watts do nicely?

Any advice would be extremely helpful-thank you:)

[Deleted User] · July 2003

Personally, I would wait for the new Polk/Momo amps. If you can't wait for these high-tech pieces of machinery, I would save a little extra to go with two amps. I would use the Alpine MRV-F540 100x4 amp with the Alpine MRD-M500 mono block amp for the sub. This would give more than enough power for the components and let another amp and woofer handle the lows. I think you wouldn't be happy with either of the configurations that you mentioned. If you think you might not have enough bass, you most surely will not.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

dude... no sub = bad idea.

my grandfather has two little piddly 8" subs in his back deck running off about 150 watts each... they dont seem like much... they dont shake the car... they dont even "slam"... but they make the music sound good. without them... it sounds flat, hallow, and utterly lifeless.

bass makes the world go round.

far as the EX III's being overrated... i dont think they are. MBQuart is overrated... i put an Xtant 50 x 4 on a couple of MBQuart 6x9's and blew them to bits (rated 60wrms)... ive got the EXIII's in the back now and i was able to even go so far as to bridge the Xtant to them (yes polk i intentionally tried to blow the hell out of your speakers). had the gain pulled back but it was probably doing about 150 x 2 into them x-ed over at 120 hertz. I wouldn't make a habit of 150, but if they say 100, they surely can handle 100. My DX series components in my pickup "say" something lik 90 or 100 rms... i think i've had anywhere between 175 and 225 on them (i've switched amps a few times) for a couple years now with no problems other than those caused by my own stupidity and having amps that were clipping out into them.

however lemme say this... the 50 watts that's funneling to those two EXIII 6x9's ive got really gets em going. you MAY be happy with 50 x 4 and 200x1 to a subif this is a small vehicle...

i mean thats the big question what kinda car are we talkin about.

if this is a standard cab pickup or like a mini-cooper, or perhaps a honda civic, that 50 x 4 is probably perfect. for what you've got.... and 200 for a 10 or 12" type S is fine too (might want to look at a JBL GT100 as well... damn nice little sub for 70 bucks... sure doesn't sound like 70 bucks, and its built tough as nails). the new momo 10's that are comin out are like 300 rms, and from the specs they look something akin to the DX in specs... for which i'd say 200 is not enough -- i've got about 230 running to each of my girlfriend's DX10's and while it keeps her happy its not enough for me...

if its a larger car... more power is better.. 75 x 4 -- 80 x 4 + somethin like 350 to a single 12 or something like that.

anywho -- just my 2 cents...

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

oh just thought i'd also note that u can keep the 5 channel idea and just go bigger juice...

everybody thinks alpine is god's gift to the world, not I, but that's not the point... there are other good amps out there...

for example...

1- MTX Thunder 895 --> at 14.4 volts: 50 x 4 into 4 ohms + 490 x 1 into 2 ohms for a sub RMS

that's basically the same as the alpine but with more than double the subwoofer power (not too shabby)

2- Kenwood KAC-X650D --> at 14.4 volts: 60 x 4 into 4 ohms + 300 x 1 into 2 ohms for a sub RMS

note - to get that 2 ohm load on teh sub line all u have to do is buy a sub that is dual 4 ohm coil ... alpine type S is available in this form as well as the JBL i noted and just about any other decent sub on the market too.

you know you can also go with a 4 channel amp... a single 4 channel.

if your two sets of mids are up front... like u said u're using two comp sets... well if they're both in front (one in door, one in kick or whatever) then u can run them both off the same channel.

you can run each side of the car off the same stereo channel, have the amp drop to 2 ohms intead of 4, and boom now you've got an amp that's "supposed" to be 75 x 4... but now its running 150 x 2 (75 per speaker... 2 speakers per channel) to the fronts and 300 x 1 bridged to a sub.

hell u can even go with a 100 x 4, and get 200 x 2 up front and 400 x 1 bridged to the sub.

and yet finally another idea... dont worry its my last one...
a 3 channel amp... http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/XTAX603B
its an Xtant amp that is 75 x 2 at 4 ohms or 150 x 2 at 2 ohms up front with a 300 x 1 at 2 ohm sub out. -- this would go along with the theory as above that u can run your two mids and the single tweet off a single channel.

seachange44 · July 2003

Thank you for the help so far. The car is a 1996 Grand Cherokee-not exactly small-but the back is an open space so a subwoofer would probably sound fine, even if the power is only 200 watts. One thing I also should have mentioned is that price is an issue. I'm also concerned about drawing a large amount of power from my alternator, I have no idea what's appropriate without modification. Lastly, I'm using a weak Pioneer two channel amp rated at 50 watts per channel to power all four speakers at the moment. This is, of course, junk, but at the moment that's what's in there. Amazingly enough, it can be listenable. I'm extremely careful not to turn the volume up to what anyone would call "loud" and I will absolutely not let it distort. Certain CDs can actually sound good with a decent amount of rich bass. I'm really leaning toward a 100X4 amplifier with no sub. You must understand that I'm only a car audio nut by default-I would have been more than happy with the Infinity system that came with certain models of the Grand Cherokee, but it was a hand-me-down that came with only a tape player and four paper speakers-I couldn't go to Chrysler and pay $1200 bucks or whatever it costs to put in the Infinity system, I had to replace slowly.

P.S. I'm not a member of the Church of Alpine either, I actually try to avoid it just for the sake of being different, that's why I'm interested in Orion and Nakamichi-anyone heard of Rainbow Car Audio?-I believe it's from Germany, you can get it in the states.

P.P.S.-Thank you, everyone, for all your help!

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

I've read a bit on rainbow and heard a few of their comp sets... nice stuff... i could have sworn it was american though... i dunno.

as far as open space in back goes -- thats "bad" for a sub... well not bad for teh sub but u've got the idea backwards... bass should be looked at as "filling" a space... if you have a sub with "X" power rating in a car that is small it will be "louder" than in a car that is larger. so the more open space the less effective any sub will be. however... 200 watts on a highly efficient sub can be quite good in a jeep-sized-vehicle... just be sure its an efficient sub otherwise dont waste your time. the alpine S 10 is rated at 87 dbs... the JBL is up at 90... an IDQ 10 is a shade over 90 as well.

as far as your alternator... fear not... i am dodge man... hear me roar... a 96 grand cherokee should have a 318 v8 in it... in which case it would have a 117 amp alternator. if its got a little six, then its around 90 amps. ... which is PLENTY.

you can run up to 800 watts RMS of class AB power or about 400 class AB + 550 class D watts RMS before you're going to break that 90 amps of draw mark.

orion was a fine company, a damn fine one... since DEI bought them out they've become an average company, but still pretty good. Nak is very nice stuff... they had some amps designed for competition that had a damping factor of well over 1,000. but their gear is not cheap and i dont think u can really consider them when on a budget. ...whereas orion's prices have dropped and they're welll within mid-priced range.

i neglected to note this before but i shall do so now since u obviosly care about your equipment...

at low power levels, speakers (yoru EXIII comp sets) in doors or panels (any non-small-sealed box -- ever see those 6x9 boxes they have? ya well if a speaker is not in something like that, then the following applies) dont sound too bad... they get kinda bassy and it doesn't seem like u need a sub or anything... sounds fine.

then you raise the power... start running 50, 60, 70, 100 watts per channel into them... all of a sudden your doors and panels start to "****" and rattle and make odd noises. the speaker cone, lacking any back pressure from a sealed enclosure, cannot return itself to center in time to keep up with the music, also, it moves too far out (speaker comes forward too much) and can slam into the grilles and all that good stuff.

as a result, we poor peons who dont have the money, time, or expertise, to build enclosures inside our door skins, have to cross those highs over at anywhere between 85 and 100 hertz. I've found a 100 hertz X with a 12db/octave slope to be ideal for this. with any speaker 6.5" or larger (6.75 / 6x9). else... you shred speakers like cheese.

so while they may sound bassy now... if there aren't crossed over, when u put juice to them, they're gonna sound like crap and maybe even damage themselves.

otherwise, you're right, a car system may never need a subwoofer... but lacking the ability to make the door/panel speakers do what they ought to, it becomes necessary.

also, the difference between 50 and 100 watts is huge... hell 75 watts would probably sound "twice as loud".... 100 "4 x as loud". i always push power... always tell people to get more more more more... but the fact is... 75 watts a channel is not "quiet".

also, you'll notice that with teh speakers crossed over... even at low power, they'll sound cleaner, more accurate... they'll have less of a job to do and as such be able to do better with what they're given.

josh prolly had the right idea all along... 2 amps... but do it in stages...

get the 4 channel -- 75 / 100 / whatever u like... cross your speakers over at like 85, and as long as they aren't "farting" juice em up as much as u like... ifyou're pleased with it, dont bother with a sub... if you find yourself lacking something, or you find them rattling in the door, jump up to 100 hz xover and snag a small sub and a small sub amp. hell u can get Profile California stuff for bargain basement prices and its got a 3 year warranty and a good track record (even tho its low end stuff).

there's a place called adleraudio.com that has polk DX10 and DX12 subs for like 65 or 70 bucks. very old stock, but all new stuff. that's less than half retail... a DX12 and the california amp would fill up the low end VERY well in your jeep.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

here's some decent 4 channels that suit your 100w desire or get close and wont cost an arm and a leg...

Hifonics Nemesis NX880 100 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $250 after instant rebate.
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/HIFNX880

HiFonics Zeus ZX6400 85 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $290 after instant rebate.
http://www.sounddomain.com/sku/HIFZX6400

USAcoustics USB4085 85 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $180
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-pgHCNRCPB4h/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=120&I=235USB4085&o=m&a=0&cc=01&avf=N
(not my first choice dude)

Visonik V4208 125 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $270
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/visonik_amplifiers.html

Rockford Punch 700X 87.5 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $270 new / $250 factory renewed.
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/rockfordfosgateamps.html

Rockford Power 750X 94 x 4 at 4 ohms -- $320
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/rockfordfosgateamps.html

this one is for nostalgia sake... some of the best amps ever put on earth --- mtx blue thunder... here's the 5 channel... does 65 x 4 into 4 ohms + 250 x 1 sub out... for $250 new old stock (circa 1997 i think)
http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/product.cfm?PN=PRO400X5

... if i had my pick outa that litter i'd be goin after the Hifonics Nemesis or the RF Punch 700X.

MTXMAN · July 2003

word of advice on the sub... I'm a huge fan of this years Roadthunder from MTX if you're looking in the $70ish price range... the only spec that i know on them off hand is that they are 200w rms anything else can be found on their website www.mtx.com I used to work at circuit and with the fact that you're in a large open space i think they would work great because of how good they sounded in our sound room.... actually they were probably the best and loudest sounding subs in that room... they can handle massive power too, we had 2 of them running off of the MTX1501d, the one that we had running was 1233w rms. They sound great and they're inexpensive... go to CC get a 12 ($89 if not on sale) and buy the 2 yr service plan because if you blow them they will replace them for you (only 16.99 to be guranteed those speakers will sound like new for 2 years, just don't put a screwdriver throughem or anything ;D)

just my 2 pennies

seachange44 · July 2003

I have this obsession with making sure that I get my money's worth out of these Polk component speakers. I feel like if I get a system with a subwoofer that I wasted money on two sets of components that aren't really contributing all that much.

Money isn't so tight that I would buy an amplifier from Sears or anything. The Orion 100X4 is $429.00, and the Nakamichi 100X4 is $529.00 at onlinecarstereo.com-I am, of course, leaning towards the Orion. There are built-in crossovers and all the traditional adjustments one might expect in a decent amplifier. There was an issue raised by someone earlier in the thread that the speakers may not be able to "move" properly, since they're not in an enclosure, with 100 watts of power. The speakers are installed in the stock door panels. It was important to me to buy 6 1/2 inch speakers so I didn't have to modify the stock location. Since the Infinity speakers that come with the upgraded stereo push out angry bass, I would imagine that the door panel is somewhat designed for free movement of air pressure.

Money becomes an issue when it comes to installation. I trust the people who installed my speakers-but since I'm probably not buying from them, they would charge me a little more in the install. They understand that the internet is a better place to shop but they would like me to buy from them-ie. the horror stories people have supposedly told them about warranties etc. Either way, adding the whole thing up is just awful. I'm much more into music than I am into the world of car audio.

If anyone has experience with the EX 3560 components please let me know if they have any bass by themselves, it would seem silly if they didn't. I've heard them at Circuit City and was very pleased with their performance without a subwoofer-this could be because of the wall they were installed in. I was told that they would probably have even more bass when installed into a door panel, I've also heard the opposite. Ah the contradictions and condescension us newbies face...

P.S. I really appreciate all the help! Keep it coming!

P.P.S.-In reference earlier to Rainbow Car Audio, the English web site is http://www.rainbow-car-audio.com - the German site is http://www.rainbow-car-audio.de - they're the same site, you can switch between both languages on the same page. I saw some photograhs of an installation of Rainbow Reference 6 1/2 inch component speakers, I believe it was at CarAudio magazine's web site, in a big, yellow, custom Mack truck-it said that the component set was $7500.00! I think Rainbow is out of all of our leagues.

avelanchefan · July 2003

Seachange,

Just a qwick story.....I have built my car system over the past 8 months. I started with a new deck (kenwood), added satellite radio, then replaced my stock speakers after a months time.

Do you know the road I am heading down now? Yes thats right a sub. I have tried and tried to tweak my system to get the best bass out of the speakers. And it is just not cutting it. After talking with PoweredbyDodge and reading a lot of what Jstas and others have posted here, well the sub is the best route to go.

PBD steered me in the right direction to get a sub and amp that fits my needs. I listen to all types of music from Metal, to top 40, to R&B, to whatever. But Subs have this misconseption about it being a "rap" thing. And after reading here for a few weeks I have come to learn that there are subs out there to fit everyone's needs including yours.

Here is one way to look at it. You stated that, "I have this obsession with making sure that I get my money's worth out of these Polk component speakers. I feel like if I get a system with a subwoofer that I wasted money on two sets of components that aren't really contributing all that much." Well if you are into home theater at all you would know that having a sub ADDS to the environment of the movie. But also that same sub will add to the musical environment also, when you are playing multi-channel music or 2.1 channel music. The sub is there for a reason and purpose. It adds... not subtracts.

What I am trying to say is that while I am definately new to the car audio thing, I have learned that adding a sub will only enhance what you are trying to accomplish. Ask PBD or some of the other regulars here what they would recommend based on your listening habits. I think you will be surprised.

Personally I am adding just one single twelve inch sub to my Isuzu Rodeo. And I cannot wait to see/hear the results.

Good luck...and happy audio driving.....

Avsfan

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

ugh boy - this thread is getting into "deep thoughts"...

*puts his thinking cap on*

re - Orion 100 x 4 --->

look up the specs... compare it to other similarly priced stuff of other brands... you'll be doing me a favor... while I've had my head up the rear of DEI / Viper for a little while, sniffing them out, I've yet to really take a hard look at Orion when butting it up against comparable competition on paper. The few times I've heard the new "all silver" amps hasn't impressed me, but I am more than willing to say those installs sucked... because they did (and thus not the amp's fault)... if u can, dig up a damping factor, slew rate, THD+noise, and efficiency for the 100x4 Orion. I've got nothin better to do than read crap -- 3 weeks before school starts up again.

re: feeling like you wasted money on a component set if you buy a sub --->

well that's actually your misconception right there... the bannana boat sailed for Cancun about an hour ago and you hopped on the fuel tanker headed toward Alaska.

(don't take that the wrong way, i just talk this way

)

the purpose of a component set is not to fill the low end.

... it is not to replace a sub.
... it is not to provide COMPLETE audio system sound either.

a component set is just ONE component of a larger scheme of things. while some may be happy with just "4 normal speakers" and no low end extention (sub bass) they are not having a complete system... now that's all fine and well... but i'm just addressing your comment which seems to have said that you believe a component set ought to play the low note (or at least the moderately low note) or else it's a waste of coin-age.

that infinity system, forgive my words, is a piece of ****.
I've heard about 30 of them in everything from Ram's to Jeep's to Caravan's to Chrysler 300M's and they all sounded like junk. While they were "respectable" up to about "low" volume... as soon as u try to turn it up to a volume you could hear with the windows down, those spekaers rattled and sounded on the verge of tearing apart.

Yes, the infinity has low end, but its fake low end... the panels are not modified, they're stock... everything is stock except the tweeter pillars and the speakers themselves (which are no big upgrade... Profile-Baja stuff pretty much "rivals" it... and thats pathetic). the reason it plays low in the doors is because they make use of hte fact that its free air in there.... they're crossed over... at what i'm not sure but i'll venture to guess probably 75 hertz, and they're not running more than 20 watts a channel... i dont care what that stupid head unit says its doing... it is NOT doing over 20 watts a channel true rms. its boomy, its open in the bottom end, and its very easy to blow to bits because of that.

might as well say "BOSE" on it for all i care.

the polk speakers are different... they're purposeful.

the component set is itended to give you superb imaging and soundstaging while integrating into your car's basic speaker hole's easily...

the woofer is INTENDED to play betwen ~80 and ~4,000 hertz. the tweeter is INTENDED to play ~4,000 hz up to the top of the music spectrum (20,000 hz or abouts there).

now, keep in mind intention is critical here... what a speaker CAN DO, and what its intended to do are two different things sometimes.

the EXIII comp set (like just about any other good comp set --- yes this includes rainbow comps [which can actually be had cheaper than Focal - roughly 450 for a GOOD set of rainbow.... not top of the line rainbow but damn good rainbow]) is INTENDED for a power range -- 100 w rms -- and in this power range it'll play down to about 80 hertz free air in your doors before it starts to go stupid on you. I dont like to drop them that low because when a rap song comes along then you're in trouble due to the EXTREME bass of rap songs (often distortion in the recording itself -- example, Dr. Dre - Chronic 2001 - full of distortion), but my preferences aside... 80 is the reccomendation that i've been told by the Polk tech guys in the past about comp sets and what I've been told by many other people who really do know their stuff.

Now can they be run lower??? sure... you can drop down as low as probably 60 hertz if you only give them about 50 watts, have a very clean amplifier with good specs, and have a very clean headunit.

wanna run them full range? without any crossover -- go ahead -- dont put over 25 or 30 watts on them or their gonna sound like junk.

now put those same speakers into a small sealed box with like 0.15 cubic feet of air space and you can run them crossed over at 60 hertz with upwards of 100+ watts on them and they'll absolutely sing for you most likely with no problems... but that is NOT how the speakers were INTENDED to be used. ... turn tricks and cross them over at 200 hertz, you can probably again put well beyond the rms, maybe 175 or so into them without worrying.... but this is not the INTENDED use.

more power requires STRICTER adherence to the "ideals" of a speaker... it has needs and limitations just like any person does, and while this sounds so ****, a speaker needs love too.

you can only push so many of its buttons at once before it has a nervous breakdown from stress... so if you're gonna push power, dont push frequency response.. if u push freq resp, dont push power.

thats one of the many reasons i said a 5 channel would be fine.... you can cross those over lower (75 or 80) and run 65 watts to them and they'll be much bassier than at 100 hertz / 100 watts... therefore a small sub will not have to do as much work as if the speakers were at 100 hertz.... so u cna get away with a smaller less power sub.

its all a balancing game that has to be played with enough common sense to realize these tradeoffs or else you end up with 100 x 4 watts rms to your highs with them not crossed over, and with a sub that's sucking up 600 watts and somehow it sounds like you have no bass... and the music has poor if any imaging at all...

... and then you realize its all just muffled together and fighting itself. i've heard cars like that... big honkin subs, tons of juice on highs... and it sounds worse than the stock system did.

Avalanchefan has the idea exactly correct... a sub adds to the entire system... it reinfoces it and compliments in a manner that cannot be reproduced in any other way.

soundwaves reinforce eacho ther when they are in phase... and bass waves will actually make your front speakers seem louder due to reinfocement and imaging as well as completing the spectrum.

same goes for subs... good fronts will reinfoce a subwoofer like nothin you could ever believe.

but you have to find that perfect balance where the sub picks up where the fronts leave off and the fronts pick up where the sub leaves off...

its beautiful when its done.... it really is something of true beauty -- but takes , sometimes weeks, of playing around with crossover / bass / trebble / and gain settings.

seachange44 · July 2003

I thought my last post might cause some controversy-it sure sounded like a misconception-but I was just stating how I feel. I am certainly not alone in that car audio in general makes me want to abuse myself. The sheer complexity and the contradictions I get from people trying to sell me something has really pushed me over the edge! It's not all that bad I guess-but everyone must empathize with the fact that I've been told a million different things:D

As far as the specs on the Orion amplifier, I can find none. I started on their web site, they don't even have individual specs for each amp. The top Alpine amp that is somewhere close to my price range is only 80X4 @4ohm. The MTX seems nice at 125X4, but for $439 it seems to good to be true, and in a way, for $429, so does the Orion. This leads me to ask, does anyone have experience with http://www.onlinecarstereo.com ? They seem honest-it does, however, bother me that they sell Focal products when Focal specifically states that they do not authorize internet sales.

The bottom line is that I'm kind of angry at myself for buying components that want 100 watts rms, I wouldn't be having this problem if they were 50 watts rms. This leads me back to my original question, would the Alpine 450 do? It has 50X4 @4ohm and a 200X1 @4ohm-that way I could make everyone happy and get a 10" type S subwoofer. If this is dumb, please let me know!

P.S. If anyone has any more issues with the new silver Orion amplifiers, please mention them before it's too late:cool:

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

don't sweat me too much - i get on my soap box at 3 am, and nothing short of the Xfiles coming on TV stops me... lol.

dont be upset over buying comps that "want" 100 wrms...

they dont actually "want" 100...
you dont have to give them 100...
they can just take UP TO 100 wrms.

anything 50 or better should be acceptable.

Christ man, I've got DX3055's in my girlfriend's car off of 60-ish watts rms and they sound fantastic... i admit they could use more power though. but i do believe that the DX comps are less sensitive than the EXIII's are - thus u shud be able to get away minimum with less power than she does.

online car stereo is not an authorized dealer for jack... you get no warranty -- even if they say you get a warranty, you do not... because they're not authorized... the 125 x 4 watt mtx amp is i believe the Thunder 1004 and retails for something like 800 bucks. I do truly doubt that MTX would authorize a dealer to sell them at 400 bucks. Sounddomain wants 650 for it and they're bargain basement LOW PRICED when it comes to retail sites.

buying from online carstereo.com is like buying from ebay i believe. if i'm not wrong that's who f***ed cody on his bd1000.1 -- now he's out chasin new amp(s).

mtx makes bad 4 channels now a days anyway ... the 502 is a great amp if only because its predecessor models (blue thunder 150.2 / 302 / 8302) all were... especialy the 302. but these days i pretty much would try to get something other than new model mtx for highs...

you know i have the amp you probaby need in my truck.
Blue Thunder Pro 754 --- does "75" x 4 at 4 ohms and 14.4 volts but that rating isn't true anymore... either the amp was just underrated or it somehow got better when i rebuilt it (international rectifier actually seems to make better parts than motorola - surprising). cuz it does about 78 x 4 at 13.8 volts and it'll do sick power (about 300 x 2) bridged at 13.8 V. its clean too -- i ran my whole system off it for a week to make sure it was ok after i repaired it, and it was ALMOST good enough for me (keep in mind i need my highs to cover over two 1,500 watt subs). ended up bridging it to the fronts and pulling the gain way down -- doing ~ 200 x2 bridged... and got another blue thunder pro 50.2 to run to the rears at 50 x 2.

anyway... u can find the BT PRO 754 on ebay for like 300 bucks if u look hard sometimes (used in good working order). retail was 499 or something in 1997. i picked mine up busted for 25 bucks, put about 40 - 50 bucks in parts in it, repainted the case and voila - new amp.

i'm gonna go call orion up... i'll be back in abut 10 minutes with some answers for you.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

god i really DETEST Directed Audio's tech support guys...

I call up - wait 20 minutes on hold - and then when i ask the questions, I get told, "why do you wnat to know that? that's not imporant? whatta u gonna base your amp purchase on that?" -- to which i reply "no, the amp is one of a very short list of amps being considered an i want to weed out the riff raff is its too low on ratings...."

then he's like "damping factor is irrelevant, anything over 5 is fine" .. i'm like "500?" he's like "no, 5" ... i'm like "stop having a conversation with me... please tell me the ratings, so i can go, because you're making me dumber by the minute.

anyway -- here are your specs for the orion...

slew rate = 20 v / us
damping factor = > 200
thd + noise = < 0.05 % at 4 ohms all channels driven at 100 watts
rated voltage = 13.8 volts

those are actually pretty good specs dude!

they're not great, but they're on par with all the stuff I've been using and with most of the other stuff your gonna find easily accessible. i was worried they'd be down around the base crappy quality of the viper mono amps but they are not... so good

bad news is the only online retailer for orion that is authorized (i asked customer service girl at Directed this) is www.mainstreetaudio.com

MSRP is 750 - minimum Orion advertised price allowed by company contract is 650 (u wont find it for less than 650 with a warranty)

mainstreet audio wants $659

in the grand scheme of things i think this is overpriced -- by about 125 bucks.

but -- i am quite glad to see that their product has not totally gone down the **** can...

as far as the 5 channel setup -- i still think 5 channel is the way to go for you... simple, powerful, and with a respectable sub.

but i dont think the alpine is the right one.

you should at least go with the kenwood excelon -- 15 watts more per channel plus 100 watts more to the sub.

i'll do some more thinking and digging, and get back to you with a definitive amp that i think will truly do the job without any worries, has a good name, and is reasonably priced with some sort of warranty.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

was browsing oninecarstereo.com -- it wasn't them that nixed cody -- was carstereotime.com. i was like "this dont look like the same place??" lol

www.cadencesound.com

Cadence Z6000 or Z6000CF 6 channel amplifier ( orange classic cadence casing or a new carbon fiber casing)

http://www.cadencesound.com/action.lasso?-Database=Products&-Table=WEB&-ResponseAny=amplifiers_detail.html&-token.series=&-token.description=6%20Channel&-KeyField=ID&-KeyValue=113&-search

its clean, its powerful, and its Cadence.

does 75 x 4 into 4 ohms for your component speakers

has a center channel 75 watt x 1 output but you dont have dolby surround sound in u're jeep so u wont use this channel #5.

channel 6 is a mono subwoofer output that is 400 x 1 at 2 ohms rms.

here 's a review.
http://aolsvc.soundandvision.aol.com/electronics/aol/article/0,aid,228,00.asp

now onto prices...

msrp is almost 900 bucks but dont fear -- the internet is a place whre u can find it for 1/3 of that...

1- http://usacaraudio.com/CADENCE.htm -- $330 bucks new in box. i'm pretty sure he matches warranty (gives u 1 yr warranty through his site - if it breaks u get new one kinda thing but check first... then again for 330 bucks... damn thats cheap.. but mikey is legit... he's a dummy sometimes but he is legit).

2- authorized dealer -- CUSTOM CAR AUDIO
266 EAST FAIRMONT AVENUE
LAKEWOOD, NY 14750
716-763-5979

PRICE = $550 bucks plus tax which is the base all lowest he can go -- his cost is 350... since u're not in new yrok u're price will be 550 flat + shipping which will prolly run u up to $575.

comes with 2 year cadence factory warranty.

that's the best 5 channel you're gona find dude -- and its a DAMN good name, with very good specs, and a nice warranty. and cadence customer service / tech support is good too and easy to talk to.

hell if u go with this u can get a type R 10" sub instead of a type S

400w is bumpin

sntnsupermen131 · July 2003

ive used onlinecarstereo before...never had problems...while i dont remember if it came with a warranty...i had no problems
carstereotime is the one that i got screwed by
and im having problems returning stuff with thezeb...their return service sucks **** and theyve gotten 5 dirty emails and 4 worse phone calls
im breaking through though
-Cody

seachange44 · July 2003

I am thoroughly inspired by the dedication the people in this forum have, most notably poweredbydodge-it hasn't gone unnoticed.

Anyhow, I've found the type R subwoofers from Alpine much to boomy for me, the type S was recommended to me because it needs less power and is more efficient.

I must make an important distinction between myself and a true car audio "fan". Like I said earlier, I am only a fan by default. I just want my Natalie Merchant CD's to sound good (not that that's all I listen to)-but what's fine for one person may sound like sacrilege to someone else. So what you guys hate, I might just love:)

As far as onlinecarstereo.com - I've really fallen in love with this site. I hope it's legit-it's extremely well-organized, the customer service policies are clear and well thought out-they claim to honor the full manufacturer's warranty, although probably not from Orion or Focal. Their prices are just too good. So in other words, I can't afford decent products unless they come from there. I guess I'll just call and ask why their prices are so low, the Orion amp is $230 under retail.

P.S. I hope this thread has been fun and educational, I'm certainly not worth the effort:cool:

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

OCS is cheaper because they are not selling out of a building.... they're a "wholesaler" by default of just sellin gout of some rented office space in god knows where.... the glory of being on the internet as a store -- no bills to pay.

if they say they honor the warranty, then that means they'll match it... on whatever they sell (if they say so)... that doesn't mean the manufacturer (orion/ focal/ whoever) will do your repairs, it just means if the item came with a 2 yr warranty, and it blows up on you within those 2 yrs, then OCS will provide you with a new one or a refurbished one at their discretion.

least that's normally what "honor" a warranty means. otherwise, if it actually had the warranty (authorized dealer) it'd say "carries" or "holds" the mfg warranty.

the type S is a good sub.. i dont remember his name, but a kid posted in about a month or two ago -- he had owned two kicker comp vr's and a kenwood 400 watt amp and complained it sounded like crap and was so quiet and "blah" -- i did a little thinking and a couple of us agreed the type S or the JBL were the way for him to go - he decided the type S because they came in dual coil at the time which would let him put two 12's on his 400 watt amp... couple days later he posted that his sub-sound had totally changed, the car sounded great, both loud and musical, and that he was very pleased with them.

and having owned the type R's myself, i can tell you that alpine, in general, builds a hell of a good sub.

be sure to chime back in when you're done and let us know how it turns out for you.:D

PS -- u do know orion makes a 5 channel right? --- model 7005 -- does 50 x 4 + 200 x 1 but looks to have a steep price tag. just thought id throw that in there.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

interesting mfg's to look at if you ever decide to get your feet a little wetter into car audio...

www.xtant.com (amps)

www.cadencesound.com (amps)

www.imagedynamicsusa.com (components, midbass, subs, horns)

www.usamps.com (poorly maintained site, but well done products)

www.streetwires.com (wiring, RCA lines, yada yada)

www.diamondaudio.com (amps / speakers)

www.soundstream.com (amps / subs)

www.ozaudio.com (components, SQ subs)

---- that in addition to of course www.polkaudio.com/car isn't by any means the extent of it all, but is a big chunk of equipment that is all what i consider "good ****" --- most of it i can't afford... lol... but i've been lucky enough to own or have played with a decent portion of it.

Jstas · July 2003

What problems did you have with carstereotime.com Cody? I've bought stuff from them several times already with no problems at all. Speedy delivery, well-packaged and decent prices.

Hey Vinnie, that Main Street site you listed, that's a pretty good site! Prices are pretty good too. I'm skeptical about how many companies they list as being an authorized dealer though. But still, it brought back memories of older stuff that so many people thought was "THE BEST!!!!!" and it really wasn't. I was quite surprised to see such crap as BOSS, Cerwin Vega, LA Sound, PowerAcoustik and the best one of them all: Hollywood Digital! I see that Hollywood Digital stuff for sale in flea markets, NIB! Talk about total crap! It's almost as bad as Urban Audio or Kraco!

Anyway, it makes me nostalgic of my high school years and everyone laughing at me and my Polks! Hell, even Profile is considered "high end" compared to some of that crap!

They have some decent stuff though and if they really are authorized retailers for so many companies, warranty stuff is still valid which is a bonus. They are worth checking out, even just for the walk down memory lane!

sntnsupermen131 · July 2003

jstas, when i ordered my bd1000 from them, i asked them over the phone if they would honor a 3yr warranty that came with the amp, they said yes, when it blew i went to send it back they said no b/c it was 4 months out of warranty, i was like are you kidding me ive only had it a little more than a year, they replied that they warranty their entire stock of everything for a year, nothing more
so i bitched and bitched and bitched and they said since it was a telephone conversation, unless i could prove it, they would deny it, and i dont know about you but i dont record my phone calls...
and they have advertised, "WE WILL BEAT ANYONE'S PRICE BY AT LEAST 5%" or something along those lines, well when i called them, they said that was a typo and that it meant to be by no more than 5%, i was like wtf?
and this was like i said more than a year ago, and the 5% thing was still on there last time i checked
then i wanted to get a replacement receipt b/c i didnt like the one they sent me
my bd 1000 receipt said 500x1
thats it, all it said....500x1
no rf, no nothing, its a 1000x1 amp anyways
i gave them the number on the receipt, told them my name, told them they had stapled a yellow receipt on top, they said the number didnt register under my name, my name didnt even exist, and theyve never stapled yellow receipts to anything
so i gave up...doesnt matter anyways...they wouldnt take the amp back...
-Cody

seachange44 · July 2003

Alright folks, I'm drawing closer to my final decision. So far I am looking at buying the Orion 100X4 amp with the new head unit. I will now seriously consider a subwoofer but not for a long time. It almost gave me a heart attack when I added the two up. I really wish the Pioneer 1.5 din head unit weren't so expensive-$269 seems expensive to me, considering it doesn't play MP3's or anything terribly special.

Here are some silly questions to ponder-

1. Why do only 0.001% of the car stereos in the U.S. have RDS (Radio Data System)?-it sets the clock to near perfect accuracy, not to mantion a bunch of other functions-they have it in Europe and Asia, and apparently they have it here. Most all of the car stereos sold in Europe and Asia are equipped with RDS.

2. Why don't head units all come standard with anti-shock memory? My Panasonic head unit that currently resides in the car has it? Guess what, it has never skipped, it will play CD's that nothing else can play because it spins it faster and reads it more efficiently. There is no excuse for the lack of anti-shock memory.

Those are my political statements regarding car audio. Thank you for reading.

One last question-Will I get more bass out of my new Polk speakers with a 100X4 amplifier than I got out of the paper speakers that came with the car? Sounds silly, but I assure you it is a valid question. :cool:

Jstas · July 2003

Originally posted by sntnsupermen131
jstas, when i ordered my bd1000 from them, i asked them over the phone if they would honor a 3yr warranty that came with the amp, they said yes, when it blew i went to send it back they said no b/c it was 4 months out of warranty, i was like are you kidding me ive only had it a little more than a year, they replied that they warranty their entire stock of everything for a year, nothing more
so i bitched and bitched and bitched and they said since it was a telephone conversation, unless i could prove it, they would deny it, and i dont know about you but i dont record my phone calls...
and they have advertised, "WE WILL BEAT ANYONE'S PRICE BY AT LEAST 5%" or something along those lines, well when i called them, they said that was a typo and that it meant to be by no more than 5%, i was like wtf?
and this was like i said more than a year ago, and the 5% thing was still on there last time i checked
then i wanted to get a replacement receipt b/c i didnt like the one they sent me
my bd 1000 receipt said 500x1
thats it, all it said....500x1
no rf, no nothing, its a 1000x1 amp anyways
i gave them the number on the receipt, told them my name, told them they had stapled a yellow receipt on top, they said the number didnt register under my name, my name didnt even exist, and theyve never stapled yellow receipts to anything
so i gave up...doesnt matter anyways...they wouldnt take the amp back...
-Cody

I guess that's my problem then. Nothing I have bought from them has broken yet. Lucky me! Then again, I don't own any RF or MTX stuff and judging by the posts of complaints with problems with that equipment, maybe that has something to do with it too? I don't know. All I have gotten from them is Hifonics, Pioneer and Kenwood stuff.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

you should get more bass but more importantly cleaner, tighter, more precise bass out of the EX III's than the factory stuff.

i didn't even know what RDS was till today, so i dunno..lol.

269 for a head isn't really bad... the i paid 449 for my first alpine head which i think its about 4 years old now and still going strong in my girlfreind's car. then i started buying things on ebay... my opinion on headunits is, and shall remain until shown to me otherwise, as such -- > alpine / kenwood & pioneer tied for 2nd / panasonic. (retail units under 600 bucks. i think the CDA9815 is the best head under a grand actually, and its only 400 bucks.

i've had a couple kenwoods, a pioneer, couple alpines and one panasonic, and none of them have skipped yet, save for when i rolled the truck into a ditch and tipped it at a 45 degree angle and shuddered to a sudden halt... although it picked right up where it left off... andthe occasional really huge pot hole that makes the truck feel like somebody slammed down on it with a giant sledge hammer. i imagine they all have some sort of shock protection of some sort -- some just advertise it, others dont. otherwise no car cd player would last more than a day -- ever have a discman in the car with you ? (back when we all had tape decks).... damn discman skips every 2 minutes.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

... mtx amps dont break down (cept old 500d's -- lots of those on the woodpile). the only reason any of them end up in the refurb pile is stupid people run them at 1/10 of an ohm and cook them like chicken. then i get to buy cheaper refurbed stuff and thus have enough money left over at the end of the month to get my back hair waxed off.

"where'd he get the rope?" --- "human hair, from my back" -- saw it again last night... damn fine movie. double feature meant 5 hours of running at 3/4 volume, by the time i went to start the truck back up, it was reading somewhere around 10.5 - 11 volts. started though, but took just about an hour of driving at 1,750 rpm's with no air condition, no radio, minimal dash lights and just my two headlights as opposed to fog lights as well, to get it back up to 14 volts. maybe i need more batteries. i should do two more in the bed with a bigger alternator. damn i wont be able to get my back hair waxed if i do - decisions, decisions...

Jstas · July 2003

Originally posted by seachange44
Alright folks, I'm drawing closer to my final decision. So far I am looking at buying the Orion 100X4 amp with the new head unit. I will now seriously consider a subwoofer but not for a long time. It almost gave me a heart attack when I added the two up. I really wish the Pioneer 1.5 din head unit weren't so expensive-$269 seems expensive to me, considering it doesn't play MP3's or anything terribly special.

Here are some silly questions to ponder-

1. Why do only 0.001% of the car stereos in the U.S. have RDS (Radio Data System)?-it sets the clock to near perfect accuracy, not to mantion a bunch of other functions-they have it in Europe and Asia, and apparently they have it here. Most all of the car stereos sold in Europe and Asia are equipped with RDS.

2. Why don't head units all come standard with anti-shock memory? My Panasonic head unit that currently resides in the car has it? Guess what, it has never skipped, it will play CD's that nothing else can play because it spins it faster and reads it more efficiently. There is no excuse for the lack of anti-shock memory.

Those are my political statements regarding car audio. Thank you for reading.

One last question-Will I get more bass out of my new Polk speakers with a 100X4 amplifier than I got out of the paper speakers that came with the car? Sounds silly, but I assure you it is a valid question. :cool:

Here are some silly answers!

Well, nuber one, about cost of a head unit. MP3 playback is not going to be the soul determinant of price. There is alot more that goes into a reciever than just playback capabilities. Things like D/A converters will skyrocket a head unit's cost quicker than anything else. CD players need them and while they are unseen, they probably have the largest affect of anything on sound quality. On top of that, fancy features like built in crossovers, disc playback features, radio station preset memory, cd changer controls and so on and so on all add up quickly.

1.) There are alot more than .001% of head units that have RDS systems. Most don't advertise it anymore because it has not caught on here in the U.S. That's mainly because the beacons and such for construction and police work are expensive and hard to justify. On top of that, most of the radio stations do not use RDS to it's full potential. Also, it does not set the clock to near perfect accuracy. The only way to do that is to set your clock exactly with Greenwich time, based on the atomic clock there. The RDS clocks are only as accurate as what the lackey operating the system at the radio station sets into the system.

2.) Anti-shock memory gets expensive and since suspension systems for the CD players in head units have become so much better than in the past, only the very jarring of the harshest bumps will cause a disc to skip. I have a 10 disc changer and it rarely skips, even over the roughest roads. It has no memory and is about 8 years old. The only time it does skip is when the tailend of the truck tries to run around a turn faster than the front end. So really, anti-skip memory is a feature that is quickly becoming obsolete. Additionally, I doubt that your CD player is spinning as fast as you claim. The access speeds of the drive are not going to exceed a certain physical limit. With current red laser technology, you are really limited to what equals the 52-60x read speeds. On top of that, those speeds are for data only. Music CD's are rarely read faster than a 24-32x speed unless it is a digital format where the density can be greater. The media quality has alot to do with it too. Cheap CD's don't read as fast as the more expensive ones. But, read that cd as fast as you want because that D/A converter will only convert the digital information to an analog signal so fast. So if you have a 1,000,000x CD drive in your head unit but only an 8 bit D/A converter, your are still going to get dismally slow read times and probably piles of errors because the reader is throwing data at the D/A converter way too fast and dropping bits and packets everywhere. In addition, the fact that it can read any CD media you put in the drive is not indicative of high speed reading but rathervery verbose error correction software which can actually slow down read speeds.

So just because Panasonic may say it is the fastest reading plyer doesn't mean it will actually process the info any faster than any other player.

seachange44 · July 2003

I have been researching RDS on Crutchfield to see what head units might have it. Turns out that quite a few do have it, mostly the very expensive head units. The obscure Harman Kardon navigational-music unit has RDS. I'm impressed with the automatic clock setting thing, but RDS allows traffic information to be fed to the cars of those who have it, I believe both in text information and in some units, it will stop the CD and tune to a station with the information. That is neat. Otherwise it lets the user find stations by the type of music, displaying the call letters of the station etc. Crutchfield.com has some information on this.

Moving on-the reason I asked if I would get better bass out of the EX III components is because I was actually relatively satisfied with my disasterous system before. With the crappy Pioneer 50X2 amp powering all six speakers, half of my music sounded horrible, but the other half sounded great! I have a very solid theory that I will be perfectly satisfied without the subwoofer. Also, i have no idea how long I'm going to keep the car? Who knows-the dash just recently read 111111, that was kind of cool. Might I suggest to those of you considering a Jeep Grand Cherokee to get the Inline Six engine as opposed to the V8. The new V8 is beaufitul, it sings, it comes with a 5 speed automatic, and it is REALLY unreliable. Jeep/Chrysler has been making the inline six used in the Grand Cherokee since the beginning of time-it's basic and reliable. Not a lot of power though, but worth the reliability. :cool:

seachange44 · July 2003

Great information Jstas. For my listening purposes it's not all that complicated. With anti-shock memory it only reads the CD at about 2x, that's nothing. That's all you need. Simply reading the CD faster at 2x helps tremendously in ignoring errors on the CD surface-spinning a CD too fast can certainly cause unwanted errors. It spins slightly faster to fill up the ten second or however many seconds buffer-that's just icing on the cake. My point was that people don't always keep their CD's in perfect condition, otherwise I fully agree that car head units these days won't skip for anything.

It's too bad that neither RDS or anti-shock memory never really caught on in American head units, I think they should be standard in both.

Jstas · July 2003

5-10 years ago, every manufacturer had anti-skip memory in thier CD players. If it didn't have it, nobody would buy it. It's just fallen from the headlines because it isn't necessary anymore. It's nice to have but I'd rather take the space and money put into that memory and up the voltage of teh pre-amp outs and put in a higher bit rate D/A converter. I could live with a skip or two as long as when it wasn't skipping, it sounded like a million bucks.

PoweredByDodge · July 2003

*befuddled*

mopar makes an inline six??????

are you sure????

the jeeps all had the magnum engines since the early 90's and the "little" magnum was a V6. the predecessor to that engine was a Slant-6 that was nothing short of a TANK of an engine. an absolute TANK.

the V8's you speak of as unreliable... maybe its something else in the vheicle that's making it unreliable... the 318, while its what i'd call a grocery getter engine, its durable as hell and can be beat on and beat on and beat on some more... and the 360 - the 360 is one of the best engines i've had the pleasure of driving... in a jeep you can pull roughly 7,000 pounds with it in a jiffy. without loss of "umph" outa the engine.

Jstas · July 2003

FALSE!

The Jeep Wrangler still has a 4.0L straight 6 that has been in Jeeps from the start. The Jeep Wrangler and it's derivatives and the Jeep Cherokee both came with a 4.0L I6 as the high end engine. Mountain moving torque at like 600 rpm. Perfect for 'froadin'!

The Grand Cherokee is a different beast. That first came with a choice of a V6 with a 4.2L displacement I believe or a 5.2L V8. I don't remember if they ever stuffed a 5.9L in there. They may have, I can't remember. However, they kept the 6 and replaced the 5.2/5.9L V8's with the cheesy 4.7L V8 and that is a boat anchor. Makes decent power but can't keep a head gasket to save it;s life. Prone to breakage. It was supposed to replace the Magnum engines but never will.

However, Dodge DOES NOT make an I6. The I6 they have is a bastardized version of the AMC I6 which is what Jeeps had all the way up until 1984 when Chrysler bought AMC/Jeep.

Need advice on system configuration

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