Such a deep topic I figured lets go down the rabbit hole.

heiney9

Face wrote: »

Multi-channel music is a cacophony of sound.

Yep, I agree and while John K's idea is what the manufacturer may have intended, but the implementation is poor as it never sounds real. It sounds contrived, planned and orhcestrated to sound a certain way which is far from natural or real.

As a quick aside, I recently was able to get copies of one of my favorite female artists Jewel from her acoustic tour in 2007 through a program run by Clear Channel called "Instant Live". The idea was for fans to purchase a copy of the show afterwards. They would record the show on the fly with no edits and very little if any mastering.

These acoustic recordings sound much more realistic, dynamic and extremely detailed. There is almost no compression, nothing is mixed/edited in or out and listening to these intimate live recordings (Jewel and her acoustic guitar) on SDA's and tubes is like nothing I've heard. I swear she is sitting right in front of me. Even the slightest scrape of her finger nail on the strings is clear as a bell. I've heard her "official" live releases and they are watered down compared to these. I was blown away!! It comes down ultimately with the recording. No matter what gear you have, or 2ch or multi channel it ALL comes down to how the final product was recorded.

H9

cnh

heiney9 wrote: »

It's more about what the SDA's do than the amp. Even when I used all SS gear I had a rock solid, 3-D image. Don't get me wrong my current Pass amp with a tube pre took it even farther, but the SDA's are creating a lot of that rather than the gear. I'd say 70% SDA and 30% gear.

H9

This has been my experience as well. I've run my SDA 2Bs with a range of pieces, most recently with a 20+ year old Kenwood Receiver that is 4 ohm capable (why, you may ask, because I was CURIOUS)...and though it's not as pleasing as a more upscale setup, the SDA effect is still very much in play--to tell you the truth, I was 'surprised' at how MUCH it was still present. So Brock's shorthand above makes a lot of sense to me.

cnh

mantis

As much as people love SDA line of speakers , when I owned them I didn't feel the same way. It must have been the gear I ran them with. I had a B&K ST140 amp using a Pioneer Elite 300 disc mega changer as a source. I used my Pioneer ELite vsx26tx and a Denon avr3801 as a pre back then. At that time I also had a pair of Rt1000p's which I felt sounded better then the SDA 2B's I had for 2 channel music.
I had the SDA cable connected between the speakers and played with angles but always felt the RT's sounded better. Cleaner and better highs from what I remember. I'd like to hear the SDA's with a better preamp

mantis

For the most part I enjoy 2 channel music more then anything else. Even SACD most of the time I like it better in 2 channel vs multi channel. I think the nail was hit on the head as the was a lot of multichannel music is implemented is why it's not as enjoyable or real sounding. Sometimes it's just distracting to hear a horn out of the left rear channel and drums off to the right of the soundstage.

apphd

Wow, 2 pages of real discussion! Great thread mantis. I'm a mid-fi guy, always have been stuck there. I've been interested in having the best sounding gear I can afford since the late 70's. Had subscriptions to Stereo Review, and Audiophile magazines when there was nothing but analog. I've heard some good systems, but way out of my price range, then some others that were pretty close at a fraction of the cost, but still out of my reach. But that made me realize this is a pursuit that can drive you crazy. The commonly talked about diminishing return factor, the ever increasing "new" technology, that some times is real and sometimes nothing more than marketing. I decided as long as I liked how it sounds, to keep it modest and enjoy what I have more. And stop thinking about what I want. I still add something new now and then if I decide the "new" technology is worth looking into. Or occasionally just something to try and see if it makes me smile. I'm pretty much 2 ch. and HT, never really hearing any multi ch music. I have played around with surround sound on 2 ch recordings, and just didn't care for it.

I spent a lot of my money (that could have been spent on gear) in bars and concert halls listening to good old fashioned live and LOUD Rock N Roll. Had musician friends that were in decent bands opened for some national acts, and feel nothing can reproduce the live sound of a good band when they are in the zone. But I feel that is more to do with the energy of a crowd, the whole sensory input to the brain that the sound alone.
This on top of some time on a flight line, a lot of shooting, and my age and my ears just aren't as good as they used to be. So I will probably never venture too far down the rabbit hole, or at least not beyond where the sun light penetrates. Not that I don't think there is a lot of exploring to do down there, but married and a 4 year old keeps my time and $$ prioritized differently now. Sorry for the ramble, while not very technical I think this is in line with what the OP is asking.

nooshinjohn

One question I have always had regarding Audiophile quality gear and the advances of time... is yesterday's vintage high end gear still considered "audiophile" even though the passage of time may have yeilded improvements? The analogy I would have would be to classic cars and their more modern counterparts. A Corvette regardless of year (mid 70's to mid 80's excepted) are still considered sports cars, and Mustangs are always going to be muscle cars. This may be a poor analogy but the beer is flowing well at the moment.

BlueFox

nooshinjohn wrote: »

One question I have always had regarding Audiophile quality gear and the advances of time... is yesterday's vintage high end gear still considered "audiophile" even though the passage of time may have yeilded improvements?

I like to think of it in terms of Reagonomics. As time goes by, the attributes that made something high-end trickle down to lower priced, mass-market gear. On the other hand, new research and technology make current audiophile gear much better than gear made, for example, 25 years ago. YMMV.

Ricardo

SDA's. Awesome speakers. I dipped my feet in the SDA world and owned a few. Xover upgrades, new tweeters, etc.

Awesome speakers, but for me the SDA effect was a bit of a gimmick and somewhat tiresome. Though I must say I still have SDA cravings now and then.

tonyb

nooshinjohn wrote: »

One question I have always had regarding Audiophile quality gear and the advances of time... is yesterday's vintage high end gear still considered "audiophile" even though the passage of time may have yeilded improvements? The analogy I would have would be to classic cars and their more modern counterparts. A Corvette regardless of year (mid 70's to mid 80's excepted) are still considered sports cars, and Mustangs are always going to be muscle cars. This may be a poor analogy but the beer is flowing well at the moment.

I dunno big guy, some vintage gear still holds up today in SQ inspite of technology. Spinning records, reel to reel, technology still can't duplicate it, and if they could, those formats would bite the dust.

Maybe it's time to change brands of beer instead of gear.

nooshinjohn

That would be a far cheaper alternative. I have yet to find a brand that makes Bose sound good though.

treitz3

Emerson?

fishbones

*Comes crashing in confused and bewildered*

Okay, I'm ready to chime in now...(sorry if it's wordy)

I am torn. I have been in pursuit of a "happy place" of sound for many years. Took quite a few year hiatus due to marriage/family/other hobbies and spent some time doing HT, but for the most part have been in 2-channel mode cause it's the closest thing to get me "there",... yet it doesn't?!! I have swapped many highly regarded mid-fi components back and forth, I've done more research than most nuclear physicists, and have spent gobs of hours rearranging rooms back and forth to get good sound - but I can't seem to find it? Every piece of gear I put in I have high hopes for, but each one seems to be a lateral move. If I gain two things - I lose two others. I can't seem to really get ahead. (Reader: You may be inclined to throw a post down below at this point, but please don't until you read the rest first). I have a bad feeling I'm just looking for a different sound than is available?

Going to a Stereophile Show years and years ago, I was stunned at how boring so many of the these ultra high-end sound systems were to me. Room after room I went in just made me yawn - and we're talking rooms that probably averaged $40-50K worth of gear (way more than I'll ever hope to spend). Only two rooms gave me the wow factor - Totem Model Ones and Wilson Watt Puppy 5's. The Totem room I had all to myself and sat right in the sweet spot listening to some audiophile CD I never heard of (didn't pay attention whether everything collapsed when I stood up and got out of that sweet spot). The Wilson room looked like they were giving away free lap dances from Angelina Jolie. I couldn't get past the door there was so many men jammed in there, but when they started the music, it was unbelievable. I was nowhere near the sweet spot chair (about 10 feet away actually) but those Wilson's engulfed that room with sound. It was truly amazing. But will I ever have those? Nope. Not unless you see my mug on the news holding a winning lotto ticket, cause the gear alone to front those bad boys has to be $30K worth of gear or they won't sound anything like what I heard. I haven't been to many audio shops, but the ones I have been in (even with highly reviewed gear in dedicated rooms) sounded lifeless to me as well. Most of these all had the same thing in common - all the sound was within the space limits of the speakers (or close to it) and as soon as you stood up everything collapses.

So, am I different than everyone else? I want it to sound great when I'm in the sweet spot, but also to sound good when I'm at my desk or walking around the room, and not have everything collapse when I move my head over 4 inches. I want to hear music all around me, but not unnaturally (like surround or some sacd). I want the room to be engulfed in sound, but with true "presence" or 3-dimensionality to things in the recording, not just limited to a tiny space next to or behind the speaker. I have thought seriously about getting 4 monitors to mount on the ceiling or wall and forgoe trying to create the sound I'm trying to achieve with two speakers up front. The closest I really get to just enjoying the music lately, especially poorly recorded ones (which is a good portion of what I listen to - rock/pop) is when I'm in my vehicle surrounded by sound. I'm not saying it takes me "there", but it's satisfactory enough that at least I don't think about what things are wrong the whole time, and I also don't have to worry about holding my head in the perfect tiny little window of a sweet spot to get that sound. Also, everyone in my family can enjoy the music - only one person can with most 2-channel systems. I enjoy being engulfed in sound, but I want it to be natural, not synthetic sounding. I want the soundstage accuracy of 2-channel system, but the "presence of sound" in the room of 4-channel. Is this possible with 2-channel? With all my tinkering so far, I'm thinking not? Not without spending money that would make an arabian prince cringe, though even audiophiles I've seen on A'gon that seem to have unlimited incomes with the very best gear out there are still in pursuit of "it" (selling $80K speakers because they just don't do it for them).

I've owned (or have) components from Legacy Audio, Boston Acoustics, Polk SDA1C's, Cary, Dared, Suppo Audio, Acurus, Classe, B&K, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha, JBL, Kimber, IXOS, BEL, Goertz, Audioquest, multiple combinations of tube and SS. Pretty decent stuff in the mid-fi world and well regarded, but none have taken me to a place I thought they would've. I don't have the money to go any higher end, otherwise I would. I just want to enjoy the music without having to judge it the whole time and without having to hold my head perfectly still in one breath of space in my room to get it. Maybe I haven't found the right speakers yet for what I'm looking for? Either that, or going backward in my audio journey with 4 speakers like I had in college is my answer to just enjoying the music? If I wasn't worried about the loss of sound quality to go to monitors small enough to mount, or worried about losing the soundstage accuracy I'd give up because things would be firing at me from all directions, I would've already done it. My next journey further down the 2-channel rabbit hole was going to be Totem speakers. It was one of the only speakers I've heard personally that wowed me and from the research I've done, it seems they throw the largest soundstage with the best imaging and "presence factor" in their weight-class (price), which is what I'm seeking. So, who knows what's next? My audio budget money is getting tighter and tighter with all the shipping charges I'm eating from swapping components, so I don't have many more options left. It seems to me that I might be less satisfied with these components than other audiophiles are? Not because I only like the sound of ultra high-end, but because I'm looking for something that may not exist?

*scurries away and hides*

mantis

I'm kinda in the same boat their Fish. I have been trying to get "my sound" in a room that just isn't god enough. I also have been limited to what I can do due to marriage/Family/kids / other hobbies / sheds / Sod / driveway / braces x2 / Deck the list goes on and on. I had my house built about 8 years ago now and the goal back then was to build a theater in the basement and an office for a killer 2 channel system. When the house was being built , I had the builder add another foot to go to 9 feet so I can do stadium seating in the theater and have a flat ceiling with drop tiles.
Well 8 years later and the basement is still unfinished. I was gearing up to start this project a little over 2 years ago and I lost my job (Tweeter went out of business). I planned on retiring their. I made excellent money and have all the extras in line 401 , benefits , 3 weeks vacation ,etc. At that time all house duties seemed to slow and I thought I found my window to get started. I have a Brother in law who was going to build it for me as he is a Contractor .
So I only have 1 room to get theater and 2 channel to go and it's a goofy room. The ceiling is 14 feet high it's 26 feet wide and 16 feet deep. The rear wall of the depth is half open to the Dining room and on the other side doorway to the kitchen. There is maybe a 5 foot wall between the 2 doorways. My system is the short way as it's the only way it makes any sense.
I have had very nice gear in their but it never sounded exactly how I wanted it to or how I heard it so many times in other peoples rooms ( being an Installer I get to hear the gear I want to buy in other peoples house I install it in before I buy). Every time I make a change I'm never 100% happy. I have moments when I sit down and I'm thrilled but I know now and really for years until I get the basement done, no matter what gear I switch out to I'll never experience it the way I want to or as good as the gear could be.
My last system was more musical then the one I have now. It sounded "hi end" when I listened to music but it didn't have the impact for theater I desired. Cake and eat it to is actually very hard to do unless you find speakers that are easy to drive , crazy dynamic and explosive. Honestly I probably would be happy with higher end Klipsch speakers. I always have been Impressed with them.
But coming down to my situation I think my system now is the best balanced system for the room. The Definitive Technology Mythos system I put together works incredible for movies and damn nice for music. I'd rather have my Dynaudio's back for music as the ST's don't suck me in as far but they do many things very well. I work hard at placement , correct wire and using good power to drive them. I use high quality sources to make sure I get the best I can out of what my wallet will allow.