weak bass in RTi10

dorokusai

photocrazy wrote: »

Thank you very much for the detailed response. These speakers have excellent highs and midrange, but may be I am expecting too much in the low end. I used to have sony HT 150 speaker bar with 6.5" sub and I am not getting the same tight and punchy bass from the RTi 10s. From the specs, the 7" woofers are crossed at 125hz, so anything above is handled by 6.5" midrange driver. are the tight and punchy lows above 125hz ?

Not really. You should still have nice, tight, punchy bass....just not the low end rumble of a subwoofer. You seem to be missing the signature of almost every Polk speaker made.

The fact the AVR isn't rated for 4ohms has nothing to do with the simple operation of an 8ohm loudspeaker. Reserves? Cmon Inspired, let's not over think the issue.

inspiredsports

dorokusai wrote: »

Not really. You should still have nice, tight, punchy bass....just not the low end rumble of a subwoofer. You seem to be missing the signature of almost every Polk speaker made.

The fact the AVR isn't rated for 4ohms has nothing to do with the simple operation of an 8ohm loudspeaker. Reserves? Cmon Inspired, let's not over think the issue.

I don't know that receiver and was just wondering if it has the current capacity to pound out the 35Hz bass the 10's should be able to reproduce. Assuming we are comfortable the 1325 is a suitable match, speaker cable gauge would be the next thing I considered.

photocrazy

inspiredsports wrote: »

I don't know that receiver and was just wondering if it has the current capacity to pound out the 35Hz bass the 10's should be able to reproduce. Assuming we are comfortable the 1325 is a suitable match, speaker cable gauge would be the next thing I considered.

I am running 16 gauge. since they front speakers, they are around 3feet each. I am not expecting to see any rumbles below 40hz. I am just trying to get the same bass punch I used to get in sony soundbars. But I have to mention that sony takes in a 5.1 track and routes the bass/LFE to sub whereas my pio downmixes the 5.1 to stereo and plays them in RTi

mdaudioguy

photocrazy wrote: »

I am running 16 gauge. since they front speakers, they are around 3feet each. I am not expecting to see any rumbles below 40hz. I am just trying to get the same bass punch I used to get in sony soundbars. But I have to mention that sony takes in a 5.1 track and routes the bass/LFE to sub whereas my pio downmixes the 5.1 to stereo and plays them in RTi

You had a sub and now you don't. For HT, you'll need a sub. It might also be that something's not setup right. Try playing some 2-channel music in direct mode... something with some bass. You should be able to hear the capabilities of this speaker then.

photocrazy

mdaudioguy wrote: »

You had a sub and now you don't. For HT, you'll need a sub. It might also be that something's not setup right. Try playing some 2-channel music in direct mode... something with some bass. You should be able to hear the capabilities of this speaker then.

I tried some 2 channel bass tracks and I definitely could hear the bass, but it is not tight. I am thinking now, may be the subs produce tight bass than floor standers

mdaudioguy

Well, then, I guess your expectations and mine differ. I think my RTi10s have fantastic low end. It's pretty tight and definitely controlled, IMO. Nobody has ever suggested they lacked in bass. As a matter of fact, most people assume my fairly large sub is playing, even when it's not on. I guess in this instance that YMMV - greatly.

photocrazy

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Well, then, I guess your expectations and mine differ. I think mine have fantastic low end. It's pretty tight and definitely controlled, IMO. Nobody has ever suggested they lacked in bass. As a matter of face, most people assume my fairly large sub is playing, even when it's not on. I guess in this instance that YMMV - greatly.

Can you suggest any tracks to test the bass performance in 2 channel stereo ?

mdaudioguy

photocrazy wrote: »

Can you suggest any tracks to test the bass performance in 2 channel stereo ?

Listened to this recently and thought it sounded pretty good: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Eye_Blind_(album)

mole'

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I find that statement kinda hard to swallow. One of my best friends has a pair of RTiA7's, which are basically the new version of the RTi10's...and my SDA 2A's completely blow them out of the water as far as bass output, extension and quality goes. We've compared the two speakers to one another side by side in both my home and his. I find it basically impossible to believe that your 10's have more bass output than your 2.3TL's. Are you sure you have the 2.3TL's placed properly? They should absolutely crush the RTi10's as far as bass output goes.

well mine do. i have tried different Amps ( SC-07, adcom 545, acurus 250x3, adcom 5802) on the 2.3TLs and still no bass. have played with the placement of them. got new good speaker cables (MIT EXp1 then AVt3) and still the same. went from monoprice ICs to sidewinders to king cobras and still no bass. i put them in a different room and so on. so i gave up on trying....

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

:eek: Mole there is no way the 10's put out more bass then the 2.3tl's.
You have to have something wrong.

If that was true then my RTiA9's would do better then my 1.2tl's and that is not the case not even close....

im open to things to try. i dont have the SDA cable hooked up cause i dont have the 5802 strapped. i did the leak test on the 2.3s and they passed.

dorokusai wrote: »

I tend to let owners decide what sounds better to them, since they are in a much better position to state that opinion. Does it sound odd? Sure but if he's happy, I'm happy.

i like the way they sound. just no bass from them.

Pinktulip7

photocrazy wrote: »

I bought a pair of RTi10s and hooked em up to Pio 1325, but the bass is very weak. I have them set as "Large" speakers in Pioneers setup menu. Even after running MCACC, still the bass is very weak. does it improve after break-in period ? how many hours of break-in, do these speakers need ?

Use Tone Control manualy increase Bass and set x-over to 60hz for RTi 10

Tour2ma

Great advise.... if he had a sub.

photocrazy wrote: »

Regarding placement, I have placed it 15cms from the wall. My room is 10' x 25' with a listening distance of 10' from the screen. It is carpeted.

Sorry I was not clearer, my question was about where the 10's are in relation to the corners... i.e., how far from the sidewalls, not how far from the back wall. If your soundstage is on the 10' wall, I'd think you'd be getting some corner loading.

As for the carpet, just be sure the speakers are sitting solidly and are not moving during play. While the 10’s have spikes, if your carpet and/ or pad is thick, it could be an issue.

10 x 25 is getting fairly large… assuming an 8’ ceiling height you’re at 2000 cu ft. And if your room is open to other living space it adds to its effective volume.

All the above said, I tend to agree with doro that something ain’t adding up… so here’s a couple questions I wished I'd asked yesterday:
- Is your disappointment with the 10's HT performance? with music? both?
- Is their bass disappointing you compared to what you heard from them when you bought them? Or
- Were they bought blind and they're just not what you'd hoped?

You are now going to start getting a lot of subwoofer recommendations. While I’d bet there is one in your future, if you just go get one without figuring out why you’re disappointed with the 10’s, you may well be glossing over an addressable issue…

mole'

i run a PSWi225 with my RTi10s. sounds great
and an Epik Castle wth the 2.3TLs

photocrazy

I played around a bit with placement and the bass seems to get better. Maybe they are breaking in..lol

photocrazy

Tour2ma wrote: »

All the above said, I tend to agree with doro that something ain’t adding up… so here’s a couple questions I wished I'd asked yesterday:
- Is your disappointment with the 10's HT performance? with music? both?
- Is their bass disappointing you compared to what you heard from them when you bought them? Or
- Were they bought blind and they're just not what you'd hoped?

You are now going to start getting a lot of subwoofer recommendations. While I’d bet there is one in your future, if you just go get one without figuring out why you’re disappointed with the 10’s, you may well be glossing over an addressable issue…

-HT performance is fine, it is the 2 channel music where the bass is dissappointing.

-I never got a chance to audition them before buying.

-Lol. yeah, they were bought blind. But I was under the impression that 2 7" woofers would throw some tight bass.

photocrazy

Pinktulip7 wrote: »

Use Tone Control manualy increase Bass and set x-over to 60hz for RTi 10

But using the tone control would color the sound right ?

stangjason

pearsall001 wrote: »

Add a nice sub...set them to "small" at 80Hz XO & experience brand new speakers! No more problem with bass.

I agree. I have the less power hungry RTi8s and I am testing out a Pioneer 1120 and thought it sounded horrible with music until I realized my sub was turned off somewhere in my settings. Once I turned my sub on and tweaked some things it was night and day...It was sort of like the music was playing in my head instead of in the room. I still feel the speakers are a bit underpowered by this receiver because I have to turn it way up to get my speakers to wake up.

photocrazy

stangjason wrote: »

I agree. I have the less power hungry RTi8s and I am testing out a Pioneer 1120 and thought it sounded horrible with music until I realized my sub was turned off somewhere in my settings. Once I turned my sub on and tweaked some things it was night and day...It was sort of like the music was playing in my head instead of in the room. I still feel the speakers are a bit underpowered by this receiver because I have to turn it way up to get my speakers to wake up.

Hmm...If I plan to use a sub and cross it 80hz, then i guess monitor 70s would be good. coz RTi10's midrange crosses at 125 to 7" woofers. Essentially, two 7" woofers would be playing from 125hz-80hz, where as in monitor 70, anything below 2.6khz will be handled by the 4 6.5 inchers.

mdaudioguy

You guys need to get get past the numbers and get your ears on some gear. There's no formula for putting together gear by matching numbers and specs. Theory only goes so far in real living rooms.

polkfan38

photocrazy wrote: »

I have placed the speakers 15cms from the wall and my floor is carpeted.

Sorry for the newbie question, but with the following link,

http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm

I guess why would we need external amps. coz a receiver with a capability of 50wpc can comfortable play in reference levels. I guess polk RTis are rated for sensitivity of 89db

15cms? 7 inches? I don't think that is enough. The best results I have recieved is from the back of the speaker being 12 to 18 inches from a wall and at least 36 inches from a side wall. This might not cure you bass problem but, it should help.

Tour2ma

Agree, mdag... thus the urging to move them around...

photo...
Talking about changing the mains and buying a sub and... is nuts... Slo-o-ow down... Moving made some improvement… good. What you’ve done is learned that your room plays a role in the results (actually it’s a big factor). There are some good room acoustics threads around here and on the www, do some searching and reading on room response, corner loading, etc. Be patient and we’ll get more improvement at minimal cost…

photocrazy wrote: »

-HT performance is fine, it is the 2 channel music where the bass is dissappointing.

Now this is confusing me… Just to check:
- you do not have a sub, right?
- your AVR's front stage setting is the same for HT as it is for 2-ch music, i.e., mains set to large... yes?

Just for yucks, since I don't remember it being asked... Have you removed the grills and looked to see/ put your ear close to verify that all the woofers and the mid-woofer are working? That the ports are open?

-I never got a chance to audition them before buying. Lol. yeah, they were bought blind.

Not rippin’ on ya here, but your answer kinda harkens back to doro's early musing on your expectations...

I was under the impression that 2 7" woofers would throw some tight bass.

Tight, yes.... very deep and forceful, no... at least not in your large room.

Assuming they are fully working, would it be at all reasonable to temporarily set them up in a smaller room, e.g., a spare bedroom? The potential value here would be to reset things so the RTi’s have a chance to satisfy you...

As for increasing the bass, I would not suggest that until you are sure all the settings are correct and the speakers are fully functional. Cranking the bass to compensate for a problem invites clipping which can lead to even bigger problems. Yes, as the purists will run to tell you, it colors the sound. However, if you are not getting the sound you want there’s nothing wrong with using the tools you have to get. But let’s save this for later…

Lastly, I’ll repeat that subwoofer urgings and recommendations are coming… I urge you to resist them for now…

mdaudioguy

polkfan38 wrote: »

15cms? 7 inches? I don't think that is enough. The best results I have recieved is from the back of the speaker being 12 to 18 inches from a wall and at least 36 inches from a side wall. This might not cure you bass problem but, it should help.

Polk's PowerPort design even allows for these speakers to be up against a wall. That's how mine are, and they don't seem to lack for bass AT ALL.

mdaudioguy

+1 to all that Tour2ma has told you. You have got to be sure of all the settings in your AVR. Using Direct mode bypasses crossover settings, MCACC, DSP modes, etc... You should notice a difference even when using an amp. Mine sound lame in normal stereo mode, and then when you activate Direct - it's like they completely come alive.

polkfan38

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Polk's PowerPort design even allows for these speakers to be up against a wall. That's how mine are, and they don't seem to lack for bass AT ALL.

Even so, I would move them out a little. He might be getting some weird room accoustics.

comfortablycurt

photocrazy wrote: »

I guess why would we need external amps. coz a receiver with a capability of 50wpc can comfortable play in reference levels. I guess polk RTis are rated for sensitivity of 89db

That statement doesn't really ring too true with me. A 50wpc AVR isn't going to be able to bring out anywhere near the volume levels of a good external amp of even 100wpc. AVR's just really aren't built for delivering huge amounts of current to deliver big dynamic swings and huge transients.

Also, the power ratings of most AVR's are very over rated. Keep in mind that the more channels you're driving, the less power each channel is getting. The "per channel" rating of a receiver is generally tested with only two, or sometimes even just one channel running. They word them in weird ways though, so that it sounds like an AVR delivers 100 wpc with all channels driven, when in reality it's more like 92 wpc with 2 channels driven, and about 42 wpc with 5 channels driven. You can't really put too much stock in an AVR's power rating, and that's really the last spec you should be looking at when buying an AVR. When it comes to the real world, there is very little difference between the actual amplifier output of most mid-range/entry level AVR's.

That being said, the RTi10's are quite easy to drive...and amplification shouldn't be your problem. Yes, you would get an improvement from an external amp...but you should still be getting respectable bass output from them with just the AVR. My guess is that placement is your problem. Moving a speaker closer to the back wall will increase the bass output. Moving them closer to a corner will increase bass output as well. I'd play around with placement some more and see if that helps you out.

It does kind of sound like you may just be expecting too much though.

As far as you're idea that the Monitor 70's would be better with a sub than the RTi10's...there's just really no truth there. The crossover points aren't really going to make much of a difference with how it blends with the sub. For that matter, the fact that the two 7" woofers would only be playing the signal from 80-125 is arguably a good thing, because then they're less muddied up by producing the other frequencies, and they'd give you nice clean tight midbass. The only reason that the Monitor 70's 6.5" midwoofers reproduce everything below 2.6khz is because the 70's don't have a dedicated midrange driver, like that RTi10 does.

You'll be much better off sticking with the RTi10's...regardless of whether or not you add a sub. The 10's are a much better sounding, more musical speaker in my experience. The 70's are nice in their own regards, but are definitely much more entry level than the RTi's.

bmor

Photo, I have a 1325 and rti10's as well, using them for two channel only at the moment. I connected the 10's out the box one cable/amp each only and wasn't impressed, found them too shrill. I ran the auto-mcacc and played with the tone controls and still not great. Then bi-amped them and noticed a better "definition" across the sound spectrum. That's about the only way I can describe it.

My next step was to learn more about the details of advanced mcacc set up. This led me to adjust the time period to match the reverb characteristics of my listening space. This is where I'm beginning to hear good things from this system. You may have to get into the advanced EQ Pro section of the setup to customize the output to your room characteristics, if you haven't tried that yet. It took me a while to get used to this coming from a 35 year old Marantz receiver. There's good information over on the AVS forum site on a dedicated Pioneer mcacc thread. It takes a bit of effort but the results are worthwile.

photocrazy

Tour2ma wrote: »

Now this is confusing me… Just to check:
- you do not have a sub, right?
- your AVR's front stage setting is the same for HT as it is for 2-ch music, i.e., mains set to large... yes?

I don't have a sub, and I have set the speakers as large.

Tour2ma wrote: »

Just for yucks, since I don't remember it being asked... Have you removed the grills and looked to see/ put your ear close to verify that all the woofers and the mid-woofer are working? That the ports are open?

Yup. I have checked the speakers and I can feel them rumbling when I feed some low frequency.

Tour2ma wrote: »

Assuming they are fully working, would it be at all reasonable to temporarily set them up in a smaller room, e.g., a spare bedroom? The potential value here would be to reset things so the RTi’s have a chance to satisfy you...

You are right..when I moved them to small room, I could hear more bass.

I am actually playing around with the room placement and my results are getting better.

photocrazy

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That statement doesn't really ring too true with me. A 50wpc AVR isn't going to be able to bring out anywhere near the volume levels of a good external amp of even 100wpc. AVR's just really aren't built for delivering huge amounts of current to deliver big dynamic swings and huge transients.

Also, the power ratings of most AVR's are very over rated. Keep in mind that the more channels you're driving, the less power each channel is getting. The "per channel" rating of a receiver is generally tested with only two, or sometimes even just one channel running. They word them in weird ways though, so that it sounds like an AVR delivers 100 wpc with all channels driven, when in reality it's more like 92 wpc with 2 channels driven, and about 42 wpc with 5 channels driven. You can't really put too much stock in an AVR's power rating, and that's really the last spec you should be looking at when buying an AVR. When it comes to the real world, there is very little difference between the actual amplifier output of most mid-range/entry level AVR's.

Actually my Pio 1325 is rated at 110 x7, which may not be rated for all channels driven simultaneouly. so I am being conservative here, guessing it would be atleast 50wpc. Going by standard definitions of speaker efficiency, for a speaker with 89db, even 20wpc will be enough to get them loud.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That being said, the RTi10's are quite easy to drive...and amplification shouldn't be your problem. Yes, you would get an improvement from an external amp...but you should still be getting respectable bass output from them with just the AVR. My guess is that placement is your problem. Moving a speaker closer to the back wall will increase the bass output. Moving them closer to a corner will increase bass output as well. I'd play around with placement some more and see if that helps you out.

actually I am playing with placement now and getting better results

photocrazy

bmor wrote: »

Photo, I have a 1325 and rti10's as well, using them for two channel only at the moment. I connected the 10's out the box one cable/amp each only and wasn't impressed, found them too shrill. I ran the auto-mcacc and played with the tone controls and still not great. Then bi-amped them and noticed a better "definition" across the sound spectrum. That's about the only way I can describe it.

My next step was to learn more about the details of advanced mcacc set up. This led me to adjust the time period to match the reverb characteristics of my listening space. This is where I'm beginning to hear good things from this system. You may have to get into the advanced EQ Pro section of the setup to customize the output to your room characteristics, if you haven't tried that yet. It took me a while to get used to this coming from a 35 year old Marantz receiver. There's good information over on the AVS forum site on a dedicated Pioneer mcacc thread. It takes a bit of effort but the results are worthwile.

Thanks, I will try it

photocrazy

mdaudioguy wrote: »

+1 to all that Tour2ma has told you. You have got to be sure of all the settings in your AVR. Using Direct mode bypasses crossover settings, MCACC, DSP modes, etc... You should notice a difference even when using an amp. Mine sound lame in normal stereo mode, and then when you activate Direct - it's like they completely come alive.

Yup, i observed that too. Direct mode is nice.

comfortablycurt

photocrazy wrote: »

Actually my Pio 1325 is rated at 110 x7, which may not be rated for all channels driven simultaneouly. so I am being conservative here, guessing it would be atleast 50wpc. Going by standard definitions of speaker efficiency, for a speaker with 89db, even 20wpc will be enough to get them loud.

Well...yes...it will be enough to get them "loud"...but 20wpc...or even 50 wpc isn't going to get you anywhere near reference level volumes...at least not with any kind of dynamic capabilities. The moment you hit any kind of big dynamics the amp would just bog down. The exception there being certain tube amps, Class A SS amps etc...