LSI9 - Does It Get Better Than This?

steveinaz

The factors:

Room size
Desired volume level (SPL)
Speaker efficiency and impeadance
Distance from the speakers

mystik610

Dont forget impedence! Speakers fry when underpowered. Amps fry when being tasked to dip too low in impedence.

More people are frying amps trying to push the LSi's with 8ohm receivers.

newrival

that distance rule of thumb is good. Here is the formula:



where r(sub2) = sound pressure in db at the new listening position
r(sub1) = sound pressure in db at the original listening position
L(sub2) = Distnce from sound source at the new listening position
L(sub21) = Distnce from sound source at the original listening position

tonyb

newrival wrote: »

that distance rule of thumb is good. Here is the formula:



where r(sub2) = sound pressure in db at the new listening position
r(sub1) = sound pressure in db at the original listening position
L(sub2) = Distnce from sound source at the new listening position
L(sub21) = Distnce from sound source at the original listening position

Looks like my recipe for meatballs.:biggrin:

Doesn't have to be rocket science gents.

Erik Tracy

tonyb wrote: »

Looks like my recipe for meatballs.:biggrin:

Doesn't have to be rocket science gents.

But - audio sounds better with formulas!

tonyb

I can give you a formula for what to do with a nice 22 year old co-ed too. But where's the fun in that ? Just dooo it.

ben62670

200 watts at 8ohms. Big Yawn.
Some companies care more about putting out big numbers rather than use better components for better SQ. Just a little something to chew on. A lot of companies that boast big numbers don't actually measure up in real world testing. A lot of the "lower" power amps are actually under specked.
Cheers
Ben

heiney9

newrival wrote: »

WATTAGE has everything to do with volume. current and wattage are not synonymous. Current is a factor of wattage. It is not the same thing, and I was speaking of wattage, because that is what the previous poster had submitted as being necessary to showing "what the speakers can do." This is not the case.

Yep

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Put me in the camp that having the power and headroom has much less to do with volume and more to do with dynamics and overall clarity.

Nope, you obviously haven't heard a properly designed lower power SS amp. Sure it's more an exception than the rule, but power in watts does NOT equate to more dynamics and headroom. You can't even really say it's a "rule of thumb" or generalize about it.

Clarity absolutely does NOT come from watts, has very little to do with it.

H9

heiney9

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I get that watts aren't the end all to what the 'end user' experience will be, but shouldn't there be some thought and planning for what to look for in amplification given a candidate speaker's efficiency, your listening distance, and your listening preferences?

As others have said - many a story has been told about how more speakers are damaged from inadequate amplifiers than most other factors.

If I remember correctly, for every doubling of distance of the listening spot, doesn't dB's go down by 6dB?

If a speaker's efficiency is measured at 1 meter, then at 2 meters the SPL measured would be down by 6dB. Move out to 4 meters and its down another 6dB or a total of 12dB.

The LSI9 is rated at only 88dB.

So, lets say in a big room the sweet spot is 'about' 12 feet. Wouldn't the measured SPL at that distance be only 76dB for 1 watt?

Then for every 3dB increase you need twice the power, right?

So, to get to an average of 88db at 4 meters you'd need 16watts.

And if there is a dynamic peak that is twice as loud - doesn't that require 10 times the power or 160 watts for that momentary peak?

It's not that simple, way too many other influencing factors. I can tell you I've run LSi's in a larger room on a robust 30wpc amp (solid state not tube) and played them loud enough to make people leave the room. So the 160W peak figure you come up with isn't correct. The amp in question maxes out at 45wpc @ 4ohms. There is a WHOLE lot more to the equation than raw wattage ratings.

Lots of other factors to consider rather than your very linear math.

LuSh

Try looking for an integrated amplifier with Home Theater By-Pass...I use them too this day with a Home Theater receiver as a pre-pro for my TV/Blu Ray/Gaming needs. The Integrated amplifier uses both pre and amplifier stages when listening to music and acts as a sole amplifier when using home theatre.

I would avoid using any numerical values when trying to determine the needs for your LSi's. I completely disagree with the 200WPC recommendation. I've used smaller integrated amplifiers in the past from the likes of NAD, SimAudio with great success on a pair of LSi9's. I believe the pre-amplifier section of your receiver is choking out a lot of what your speakers can deliver. An amplifier is simply amplifying a rather distorted pre-signal your receiver is dishing out. Your Onkyo while apt for Home Theater has a little too much going on inside to compete with a strictly analog pre-amplifier section with its own power supply.

While I did have the most success with a Krell Integrated later on I think it was more of a synergy thing then the flat out power. I have moved onto Dynaudio speakers which are tougher to drive and moved down from a 200WPC Krell to a 70 WPC Simaudio and I prefer the lower powered SS Simaudio.

Look into the Integrated amplifiers with HT By-Pass...the best of both worlds..check out Naim, SimAudio, Classe, Krell, Bryston, etc.

Erik Tracy

heiney9 wrote: »

It's not that simple, way too many other influencing factors. I can tell you I've run LSi's in a larger room on a robust 30wpc amp (solid state not tube) and played them loud enough to make people leave the room. So the 160W peak figure you come up with isn't correct. The amp in question maxes out at 45wpc @ 4ohms. There is a WHOLE lot more to the equation than raw wattage ratings.

Lots of other factors to consider rather than your very linear math.

That's exactly what I said....'other factors'....

newrival

heiney9 wrote: »

It's not that simple, way too many other influencing factors. I can tell you I've run LSi's in a larger room on a robust 30wpc amp (solid state not tube) and played them loud enough to make people leave the room. So the 160W peak figure you come up with isn't correct. The amp in question maxes out at 45wpc @ 4ohms. There is a WHOLE lot more to the equation than raw wattage ratings.

Lots of other factors to consider rather than your very linear math.

That's correct. Not to mention none of the examples account for dynamic peak current release. You can have a 60W amp throw out 1kW (program) if the current is provided.

cnh

Guys, guys...the OP only has 2 posts and we're on an extended discourse about amplification here! Already a wealth of info above that will take him/her a while to process and perhaps even be confused by.

cnh

ben62670

You know how it goes. All the info is on the first page that is needed, and then we argue for 4-12 more pages.

newrival

what fun would one page be??? :biggrin:

chocachang

Hi All,

I figured I'd jump in here instead of starting a whole new thread. Sorry!

I was thinking of picking up a pair of LSI9s and have read here that the Adcom GFA-545IIs are a good amp for them in terms of budget. I saw a bundle for the 545 with a GTP-450 preamp for $350 on audiogon. What do you all think of the preamp. Should I jump on this or just look for the 545 on it's own? Are the originals better than the IIs and why? Are there other/better used options up to $500?

Thanks A lot!

Jon

heiney9

chocachang wrote: »

Hi All,

I figured I'd jump in here instead of starting a whole new thread. Sorry!

I was thinking of picking up a pair of LSI9s and have read here that the Adcom GFA-545IIs are a good amp for them in terms of budget. I saw a bundle for the 545 with a GTP-450 preamp for $350 on audiogon. What do you all think of the preamp. Should I jump on this or just look for the 545 on it's own? Are the originals better than the IIs and why? Are there other/better used options up to $500?

Thanks A lot!

Jon

The 545 will run the 9's more than fine. The GTP-450 isn't the greatest pre-amp in the world but you're still a step ahead of the receiver crowd. I say go for it and enjoy it and when funds allow upgrade the pre-amp down the road. I'd offer $300. I slightly prefer the original 545 since it is direct coupled rather than capacitor coupled, but that's really splitting hairs. The 545II is just as nice, really.

H9

joey_polk

Well I'm struggling a bit trying to understand the discussion here. Can't tell if I need a 200wpc amp or if something less will do. Right now I'm looking at either an Emotiva UPA-2 (185wpc), an ADCOM 535 mII (100wpc) or Rotel RB980BX (220WPC?). Would any of these these be able to drive the lsi9s and offer better clarity than my Onkyo?

Thanks

newrival

joey_polk wrote: »

Well I'm struggling a bit trying to understand the discussion here. Can't tell if I need a 200wpc amp or if something less will do. Right now I'm looking at either an Emotiva UPA-2 (185wpc), an ADCOM 535 mII (100wpc) or Rotel RB980BX (220WPC?). Would any of these these be able to drive the lsi9s and offer better clarity than my Onkyo?

Thanks

I susoect they'd all be better than the Onkyo. Although I'm not familiar with Emotiva. The ADCOM is a decent amp. I had the 3 zone version of the one you mentined (six channels), along with the matching 3-zone pre-amp. It was decent. I little strident compared to others in the family. IIRC, that Rotel is on the bright side as well. I might look for something from B&K.

Since there are 2 people bringing up ADCOM, I'd just like to mention that the original GFA-555 is my favorite amp that I have heard from them (aside from venerable the GFA-5802, which was also designed by Nelson Pass)

tonyb

joey_polk wrote: »

Well I'm struggling a bit trying to understand the discussion here. Can't tell if I need a 200wpc amp or if something less will do. Right now I'm looking at either an Emotiva UPA-2 (185wpc), an ADCOM 535 mII (100wpc) or Rotel RB980BX (220WPC?). Would any of these these be able to drive the lsi9s and offer better clarity than my Onkyo?

Thanks

We have been known to get too deep into a subject at times. Basically, everyone is saying all amps are not created equal, and current is more important than watts. All of those choices you mentioned will work fine with LSI's. Just like speakers, that offer different sound signatures, some amps can color the sound also. Don't sweat it too much, your on a good path to start with.

heiney9

The 535II is the best sounding of the bunch you listed and it will run the 9's fine unless you are in a large room and/or you have vaulted ceilings, etc. That's one I'd choose,

Not a fan of Emo or most Rotel's.

H9

joey_polk

Tonyb thanks for that summary. Not to turn this into an amp thread but which of those amps would have a bright/detailed sound signature?

heiney9

joey_polk wrote: »

but which of those amps would have a bright/detailed sound signature?

bright and detailed do not go hand in hand, you can have a detailed amp that is neither bright or strident sounding. As far as bright and strident sounding, the Emo and then Rotel, with the 535 being the least offensively bright.

H9

chocachang

Thanks for the great info!

A few more questions.

LSI9 new with free PSW111 sub or should I try to get them used and try to do the XO mod? Is $500 generally a good price for them used in good condition? Roughly, how much does the standard mod cost (if you don't mind me asking)?

thanks again!

Audioquest

polkfarmboy wrote: »

If you add an amp you will think you have different speakers altogether ,everything improves

Ditto....nothing like good quality separates for 2 channel. There are many good choices of gear depending on your budget, especially on the used market.

chocachang

More questions. Gfa 545ii v 555 v 5500? What are the differences in quality and sound?

If it helps, I am partial to westone earphones while I also appreciate ety er4s.

Thanks

heiney9

If you search the archives I know there are answers to your question, I've answered that question in the past at least a dozen times. Don't have the motivation to rehash it, sorry.

H9

dnoyeB

xcapri79 wrote: »

...For a multifrequency audio signal, the speaker impedance will change somewhat, so these relationships become more complex, however the basic proportionality relationships remain the same. It is important that the amp has sufficient current output capability for these complex and dynamic loads.

A speaker IS an inductor. Its a coil wrap with a magnet. It definitely has inductance. And the filters tend to use caps and have capacitance. Definitely not a DC system and definitely not putting DC into it.

just FYI.

el_duderino

newrival wrote: »

Not true, and misleading. These are a nominal load of 4ohm, so why bother looking at 8ohm stats of an amplifier? Additionally, if by "what these are truly capable of," you mean, "make your eardrums bleed," then perhaps you're right. But this is assuming you know what level the OP listens at. If you are suggesting that wattage is responsible for SQ, you are mistaken. High current is much more important, especially if you are planning equipment based on your listening styles.

Reference this quick example for wattage's importance:





+1
I can second all but the Emotiva and the NAD. I've never heard Emo (and it seems they have a few enemies on this site for one reason or another), and I haven't heard a NAD that I've ever liked. But that's just my opinion, and my experience. Obviously many people like NAD, I just don't.

Emotiva amps are serious business for rock, metal, techno and home theater.

I am not finding it to be a huge improvement over an ancient technics for classical, but more thunderous compositions really use the extra headroom.

Great deal overall.... Also their CD player is extremely nice.

mystik610

el_duderino wrote: »

Emotiva amps are serious business for rock, metal, techno and home theater.

I am not finding it to be a huge improvement over an ancient technics for classical, but more thunderous compositions really use the extra headroom.

Great deal overall.... Also their CD player is extremely nice.

EMO gets no respect here, but I played around with a lot of different amps with my LSi9's, and decided on the EMO.

It all comes down to preference really.

The EMO is a very bright amp, IMO, which gives it a good synergy with the very warm LSi9's for home theater use. It by no means is the most musical amp out there (not by a long-shot)....it's a brighter amp, but it bright doesn't = detailed in my experience. Driven off my old amp, which has half the rated power, my LSi9's were overall more nuanced, mid-range had more depth, and the bass was quite a bit punchier.

In the end my old amp paired with the LSi9s was too dry for tastes, which lean a little more towards HT. The EMO gives the LSi9's that *sparkle* in the upper frequencies that's important for HT, while still sounding great for music....I will say, however, that the EMO isn't my favorite amp for music.

I can't imagine pairing an EMO amp with the RTi's/RTi-A's. Just the thought of it makes me cringe.