LSI9 - Does It Get Better Than This?

joey_polk

I’m auditioning a pair of LSI9s in a 2.1 configuration off a 135 watt Onkyo receiver. I left the receiver at the 6ohm setting to give the speakers as much power as possible. When listening in direct mode or pure audio mode they don’t sound so good. In this mode the low end completely drowns out the highs and overall lacks clarity. I then ran the receiver through Audyssey configuration, set the crossover at 60 and there was significant improvement. Basically the speakers came to life with really nice clarity and smooth mid-range. I was very impressed but not quite blown away, still left wanting a bit more high-end. My question is this, knowing that everyone pretty much recommends a separate amplifier for these, would there be a significant improvement using a separate amplifier vs. the Onkyo in the configuration I used at below reference levels? I’m thinking since I was only driving 2 channels at moderate levels (my typical listening level) and used the sub that the Onkyo is going to give me pretty good performance and allow me to hear what the speakers can do. Or am I wrong and that I can’t really hear them at their best until using an amp. Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks

polkfarmboy

If you add an amp you will think you have different speakers altogether ,everything improves

leroyjr1

Toss the receiver and get a amp and pre amp.

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk. +1 on what the others have said. No receiver is capable of doing justice to the LSI series by itself. You need at least 200wpc @ 8ohms to begin to hear what they are truly capable of.

Brands to look at: Parasound, B & K, Rotel, Emotiva, Outlaw, Adcom, Nad, & Sunfire are just a few to look at.

Also Audiogon is your friend for good used gear.

Toolfan66

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Toss the receiver and get a amp and pre amp.

YEP!!!!!

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome to Club Polk. +1 on what the others have said. No receiver is capable of doing justice to the LSI series by itself. You need at least 200wpc @ 8ohms to begin to hear what they are truly capable of.

Brands to look at: Parasound, B & K, Rotel, Emotiva, Outlaw, Adcom, Nad, & Sunfire are just a few to look at.

Also Audiogon is your friend for good used gear.

YEP!!!!

newrival

cfrizz wrote: »

You need at least 200wpc @ 8ohms to begin to hear what they are truly capable of.

Not true, and misleading. These are a nominal load of 4ohm, so why bother looking at 8ohm stats of an amplifier? Additionally, if by "what these are truly capable of," you mean, "make your eardrums bleed," then perhaps you're right. But this is assuming you know what level the OP listens at. If you are suggesting that wattage is responsible for SQ, you are mistaken. High current is much more important, especially if you are planning equipment based on your listening styles.

Reference this quick example for wattage's importance:

cfrizz wrote: »

Brands to look at: Parasound, B & K, Rotel, Emotiva, Outlaw, Adcom, Nad, & Sunfire are just a few to look at.

Also Audiogon is your friend for good used gear.

+1
I can second all but the Emotiva and the NAD. I've never heard Emo (and it seems they have a few enemies on this site for one reason or another), and I haven't heard a NAD that I've ever liked. But that's just my opinion, and my experience. Obviously many people like NAD, I just don't.

mystik610

joey_polk wrote: »

I’m auditioning a pair of LSI9s in a 2.1 configuration off a 135 watt Onkyo receiver. I left the receiver at the 6ohm setting to give the speakers as much power as possible. When listening in direct mode or pure audio mode they don’t sound so good. In this mode the low end completely drowns out the highs and overall lacks clarity. I then ran the receiver through Audyssey configuration, set the crossover at 60 and there was significant improvement. Basically the speakers came to life with really nice clarity and smooth mid-range. I was very impressed but not quite blown away, still left wanting a bit more high-end. My question is this, knowing that everyone pretty much recommends a separate amplifier for these, would there be a significant improvement using a separate amplifier vs. the Onkyo in the configuration I used at below reference levels? I’m thinking since I was only driving 2 channels at moderate levels (my typical listening level) and used the sub that the Onkyo is going to give me pretty good performance and allow me to hear what the speakers can do. Or am I wrong and that I can’t really hear them at their best until using an amp. Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks

more power (current) has less to do with volume, and more to do with dynamic range and clarity.

newrival

mystik610 wrote: »

more power (current) has less to do with volume, and more to do with dynamic range and clarity.

WATTAGE has everything to do with volume. current and wattage are not synonymous. Current is a factor of wattage. It is not the same thing, and I was speaking of wattage, because that is what the previous poster had submitted as being necessary to showing "what the speakers can do." This is not the case.

Jetmaker737

newrival wrote: »

WATTAGE has everything to do with volume. current and wattage are not synonymous. Current is a factor of wattage. It is not the same thing, and I was speaking of wattage, because that is what the previous poster had submitted as being necessary to showing "what the speakers can do." This is not the case.

Given that the voltages are the same or similar then Wattage is directly proportional to current (W=VA).

The 200 W into 8 Ohms is a good rule of thumb. For one thing 4 Ohm capability is not always given. A good amp will double down into 4 Ohms. And it's not about ear splitting. It's about dynamic head room.

newrival

Jetmaker737 wrote: »

Given that the voltages are the same or similar then Wattage is directly proportional to current (W=VA).

The 200 W into 8 Ohms is a good rule of thumb. For one thing 4 Ohm capability is not always given. A good amp will double down into 4 Ohms. And it's not about ear splitting. It's about dynamic head room.

If 4ohm rating is not given, it is not likely designed to run at that nominal impedance. Not saying that it can't just that it probably wasn't designed to, specifically.

I understand dynamic headroom. An 8ohm continuous power rating is, in and of itself, NO indication of 4ohm dynamic headroom. There are a lot of assumed factors in your, and others', explanations. I mean, what is a "good amp?" Walk into best buy or Radio Shack, and I bet they'll have a "good amp" for you. Its a relative qualifier.

There are plenty of amps that don't double they're wattage when halving their impedance. I think that it is foolish for one to just assume this is the case just because they have a "good amp."

VR3

Put me in the camp that having the power and headroom has much less to do with volume and more to do with dynamics and overall clarity.

newrival

I understand all that you are trying to explain. My point is that just saying "you need at least 200W @ 8ohms is misleading. and it is! It doesn't help anyone's understanding of what is going on, and in fact, implies to someone who doesn't know any better that wattage is the key to sound quality.

I understand that you are trying to say W=VA so if wattage is high it must have high current. But all transformers are not created equal and so you using equal amperage as if that is commonplace is misleading as well. Likely within a certain price range? sure, but definitely not a given.

VR3

I also agree that the 200 watt rule is bull s@#t.

Its ignorant.

I have heard 60 watts rock it out all day

dorokusai

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome to Club Polk. +1 on what the others have said. No receiver is capable of doing justice to the LSI series by itself. You need at least 200wpc @ 8ohms to begin to hear what they are truly capable of.

Brands to look at: Parasound, B & K, Rotel, Emotiva, Outlaw, Adcom, Nad, & Sunfire are just a few to look at.

Also Audiogon is your friend for good used gear.

Totally disagree on that statement Cathy aside from the gear recommendations and location for purchase. A quality amplifier that can deliver a solid 4ohm load can vary all around that 200 mark. Is it a decent number to choose and recommend? Sure but it's not a rule of audio thumb for the LSi series.

If you wanted some smaller wattage ideas, try Cambridge Audio, NAD, SimAudio, Rogue Audio, Audio Research.....etc etc. I'm thinking new and used....cost effective and semi-expensive.

Jetmaker737

I'd have to agree that boiling it down to a one liner can be misleading. And for one to understand which amps are good amps means you have to do your research. Based on my experience trying to drive LSi's off my AVR, I recommend the OP start researching. There's plenty of good advice on this site that can be found by searching.

hoosier21

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I also agree that the 200 watt rule is bull s@#t.

Its ignorant.

I have heard 60 watts rock it out all day

Hey now, someone will have to change their favorite cut and paste statement if this is true :rolleyes:

cfrizz

Disagree all you like, but enough people have gotten lower wattage amps say 125wpc @ 8ohms which came out to 200wpc @ 4ohms and the amps struggled to deliver on the LSI's.

We all know that the more power you feed to the LSI's the better they perform. And I'm talking about SS power not tubes.

All I want for people who get LSI's is to make sure they give them enough power to operate to their full potential without the worry of damaging their gear or their speakers.

This will get him up and running and more than likely be extremely happy with his setup. If he chooses later on down the line to experiment with other gear, he is free to do so, but at least by then he will know how good the LSI's can sound and will know better than to settle for anything less in terms of how well the LSI's sound.

shack

I had a pair of LSi9s mated with a NAD integrated rated at 50 wpc and it drove them beautifully. Plenty of headroom and I could push them as hard as I WANTED and it never seemed to be too much. The 200 wpc minimum is just wrong.

markmarc

dorokusai wrote: »

Totally disagree on that statement Cathy aside from the gear recommendations and location for purchase. A quality amplifier that can deliver a solid 4ohm load can vary all around that 200 mark. Is it a decent number to choose and recommend? Sure but it's not a rule of audio thumb for the LSi series.

If you wanted some smaller wattage ideas, try Cambridge Audio, NAD, SimAudio, Rogue Audio, Audio Research.....etc etc. I'm thinking new and used....cost effective and semi-expensive.

BINGO! Quality 4 Ohm amplification is critical in order to hear the LSi9's at their best. A 100watt SimAudio I'm betting would be an excellent match.

Hang around this forum, you'll learn all sorts of ways to get the most out of the LSi9's.

VR3

Never heard the LSi with 200 watts of power...

Never felt they were missing anything because of power... maybe other reasons but never power. They are actually pretty easy to drive...

Id say maybe the LSi15, RTiA9 and speakers of similar design would benefit from more power --

But current is alot more important than power....

tonyb

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

But current is alot more important than power....

Agreed, and thats why higher current, lower wattage tube amps can bring the goods.
Regardless, the OP can benefit from a good amp,and there are plenty to be found used that will fit any budget. Heck, right now there's a B&K 5000 in the FS section for 360 bucks that would work.

joey_polk

Thank you folks, great discussion here, I'll try to get my hands on an amp!

mystik610

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Never heard the LSi with 200 watts of power...

Never felt they were missing anything because of power... maybe other reasons but never power. They are actually pretty easy to drive...

Id say maybe the LSi15, RTiA9 and speakers of similar design would benefit from more power --

The LSi9's will dip down to 2ohms in impedence at certain frequencies and are the hardest to drive. There are a couple of posts flying around about people frying receivers trying to drive the LSi9's.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

But current is alot more important than power....

I'd say synergy/timbre is more important than power, provided that the speakers are being properly amplified. (an amp's current likely has a big effect on its timbre)

Running any of the Lsi’s off a receiver is ‘improper’ IMO (except maybe the LSi7’s)

Prior to getting the EMO, I was running my LSi9’s off a Harman Kardon 2.1 dedicated amplifier, which pushed 150 WPC into 4ohms (half of what the EMO is driving). Musically, the HK was a better performer. Overall the HK had a more lifelike presentation….separation of instruments was better, bass was more refined, and nuanced details like the breath of a singer were brought to life by the HK, and lost with the EMO.

I ended up keeping the EMO, as my set-up is utilized more for HT than music, and the EMO was a better HT performer. It was the ‘brighter’ sounding amp (throws high frequencies around the room), and had a larger soundstage in high SPL HT scenes.

mdaudioguy

Polk "recommends" 20 - 200 w/channel... I'm guessing they mean @ 4 ohms. In any case, that's quite a range.

We keep hearing about folks frying tweeters by using under-powered amps at high volume. Perhaps Polk should clarify. It sure doesn't seem as if they're covering their butts with this recommendation - i.e. there are no caveats. Just saying.

cnh

All good points above. I have a 50 watt NAD that can certainly run LSI-7s (but they are the lighter load). An HK 3490 can also run them but does not sound as good as a 200 watt power amp driving them (325 watts into 4 ohms/channel).

When Cathy recommends 200 watts into 8 ohms...she is talking about power amps that almost always have a 4 ohm rating of 300 watts or more? And while you can drive LSIs with less power. You're definitely fine at her recommendation even if that blanket statement has exceptions, like NAD, tubes, Class A amps and so forth. Especially for someone just getting started with these.

I've never seen a pair of LSI that didn't say YES to extra power. But I will admit that I've seen them run with less. So I think we're splitting hairs.

If you're on a budget, get a good integrated like a NAD or Cambridge Audio that runs 4 ohm speakers and doubles or even triples down at 4 ohms. Or a cheaper used SS power amp suggested by Cathy above.

Just make sure you have a high current design that has GOOD power reserves.

And enjoy. They're a nice speaker.

cnh

cheddar

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Polk "recommends" 20 - 200 w/channel... I'm guessing they mean @ 4 ohms. In any case, that's quite a range.

We keep hearing about folks frying tweeters by using under-powered amps at high volume. Perhaps Polk should clarify. It sure doesn't seem as if they're covering their butts with this recommendation - i.e. there are no caveats. Just saying.

A 5 watt amp that loses control of the power it's sending and allows distortion to reach the speakers will fry them. A 400 watt amp that maintains control without distortion is much safer to use.

15 clean watts is enough to drive even an LSi 15 to a nice volume. 100-200 clean watts would be ear bleed territory in a moderate sized room.

But you really can't explain the difference between a 15 watt tube amp and a 400 watt SS amp in a stat. So polk gives out the general statement which is pretty useless when evaluating amp requirements for whetever 'quality' of sound a person is searching for. IMHO.

Erik Tracy

I get that watts aren't the end all to what the 'end user' experience will be, but shouldn't there be some thought and planning for what to look for in amplification given a candidate speaker's efficiency, your listening distance, and your listening preferences?

As others have said - many a story has been told about how more speakers are damaged from inadequate amplifiers than most other factors.

If I remember correctly, for every doubling of distance of the listening spot, doesn't dB's go down by 6dB?

If a speaker's efficiency is measured at 1 meter, then at 2 meters the SPL measured would be down by 6dB. Move out to 4 meters and its down another 6dB or a total of 12dB.

The LSI9 is rated at only 88dB.

So, lets say in a big room the sweet spot is 'about' 12 feet. Wouldn't the measured SPL at that distance be only 76dB for 1 watt?

Then for every 3dB increase you need twice the power, right?

So, to get to an average of 88db at 4 meters you'd need 16watts.

And if there is a dynamic peak that is twice as loud - doesn't that require 10 times the power or 160 watts for that momentary peak?

mdaudioguy

^^^^
Seems like a reasonable way to look at it, Erik, even though I'm not qualified to check your math!

Midnite Mick

I had fabulous results with 80 watts of tube power on the 15's.

Regards,
Mike

dkg999

The output from my old Midland AM transistor radio drives LSi9's just fine. All the rest of this is hooey!



























Just kidding folks!

Erik Tracy

mdaudioguy wrote: »

^^^^
Seems like a reasonable way to look at it, Erik, even though I'm not qualified to check your math!

Always good to have someone check the math....

And I realize that there will be room reinforcements as well as a second speaker to the dB calculations.

But it seems to me that 'other factors' need to be accounted for when matching an amp to speakers in regards to power.

Power can quickly be consumed depending on the 'other factors' - so headroom is a good thing (and, of course, amps with high current reserves) to meet the demands of music dynamics.

In my youth when questing for concert type levels - I fried my share of tweeters with underpowered amps.:biggrin::redface: