Denon 1911 & Rti A7 / Amplifier Question

tonyb

If you want to know if the 3311 is better than the 1911, then yes, head and shoulders better. Will it alone drive A7's ? Yes, most likely not to their full potential though. Forget about bi-amping from a receiver, it's more so a marketing gimmick than anything of real world use.
Lets look at it like this,you obviously bought the A7's because you wanted better sound. You paid good hard earned coin for them. Why would you be happy with only getting about 70% of what they can do ? When you start moving up in the speaker world, you have to start giving more thought into powering them. Everyone has their own budget constraints, but used amps under 500 clams are pretty easy to come by these days. Look for a receiver with all the bells and whistles you want, make sure it has pre-outs, and when budget permits,add an amp and you'll be thanking us later. Good luck to you.

BtrSound

What would you look for in an Amp? I have considered adding an external amp, which is another reason for the 3311 / 1008 consideration. I noticed the amps are higher current lower wattage ratings for the most part. How do you tell which one to use? If I wanted to get a 5 channel amp, do i look for a 5x200w is amp? Does anyone know of any good refeence materials I can read to help make a wise decision?

nguyendot

I have the NR807 Onkyo... I don't biamp... No need since I also have a Parasound HC1205A

booyaolian

Are you guys being serious?

Lets say if you got 2 channel stereo. 1911 should output about 120watts/ch.

According to this efficiency calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
within 3 ft you should be getting 120db.

That's plenty to blow ur brains out isn't it?

Even if the amp outputs 80 watts for 5ch. set up. It still yields about 120 db.
Wats up with recommending more power when you donno the room size?

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk Booyaolian!

When we recommend an amp it is not about having more volume. The biggest gains that come from adding an amplifier is that you have more headroom, better clarity across the board for both music & vocals, & better bass. And you will hear all of this at your normal/softer volume that you never heard when you just used a receiver.

I recommend usually 200wpc simply because most people have no problem hearing a clear improvement in the sound. If you have a 5 channel setup, I recommend getting a 5 channel amp just so that you can be done with this particular upgrade.

I started out with a 50wpc Rotel amp on my 21yr old Polk RTA-8Ts, and thought they sounded great. Then I got a 110wpc Denon 3802 and the sound was about the same, Then I got a 205wpc Parasound 1500A and my speakers came alive! I was hearing things on my old cds that I never knew was there! I finally heard what they were capapble of with serious amplification.

This is the benefit of amplification, to ensure that your speakers have all the power they need to operate to their full potential.

booyaolian

cfrizz wrote: »

Welcome to Club Polk Booyaolian!

When we recommend an amp it is not about having more volume. The biggest gains that come from adding an amplifier is that you have more headroom, better clarity across the board for both music & vocals, & better bass. And you will hear all of this at your normal/softer volume that you never heard when you just used a receiver.

I recommend usually 200wpc simply because most people have no problem hearing a clear improvement in the sound. If you have a 5 channel setup, I recommend getting a 5 channel amp just so that you can be done with this particular upgrade.

I started out with a 50wpc Rotel amp on my 21yr old Polk RTA-8Ts, and thought they sounded great. Then I got a 110wpc Denon 3802 and the sound was about the same, Then I got a 205wpc Parasound 1500A and my speakers came alive! I was hearing things on my old cds that I never knew was there! I finally heard what they were capapble of with serious amplification.

This is the benefit of amplification, to ensure that your speakers have all the power they need to operate to their full potential.

I agree with more head room thing if you are watching home theater. But even with that,
why would u need the power if your listening level is at 60db while the current receiver would produce max of 110db with 0.01% distortiion?

As for the other suggestions, how can you get extra sound and better sound quality if the current amp is capable of amplifying the speaker already? Are you going to get even more detail if you switch to 400wpc amp? What extra detail are you getting?

Imo I'll leave the 200wpc for the B&W 8 series or something like the Usher speakers.

cfrizz

Suit yourself, I would have been content with a 5 channel 200wpc amp if I could have found one that I could physically lift. I came across my Sunfire which just happened to be more powerful.

I didn't get any extra detail with the extra power since they were getting all they needed with the Parasound. If I had been running LSI's I probably would have heard a difference.

Until you hear the difference for yourself, you just won't know.

booyaolian

cfrizz wrote: »

Suit yourself, I would have been content with a 5 channel 200wpc amp if I could have found one that I could physically lift. I came across my Sunfire which just happened to be more powerful.

I didn't get any extra detail with the extra power since they were getting all they needed with the Parasound. If I had been running LSI's I probably would have heard a difference.

Until you hear the difference for yourself, you just won't know.

lol in that case how did you know it's all the power they need? You might need 1000watt/channel cause you never know in your scenario.

I was just trying to understand how you come up with extra detail.
People use tube amp with 30watts listening in quite area crank it up to 30db hear all the detail they need. Do they need to 2000watts at 30db to hear all the classical music detail?
Where's the logic in that?

imo no distortion, no clipping then you are good to go.
If you wanna enlighten me with actual fact not just you hear something more with magical wattage please do.

cfrizz

You obviously didn't see in my signature, that I now run a 405wpc Sunfire amp for all of my speakers. I couldn't hear a difference, which means I had reached the limit of the power that my Polks wanted with my Parasound amp. Just my back speakers showed me that they loved the extra power since they were the only ones un-amped when I got the Sunfire amp.

But let me be plain, I don't give a rats **** about logic, specifications, science, experimenting or any other of the stuff you obviously want to dig into. My ears are telling all that I need to know about how good my system sounds!

There is a discussion going on in the 2 channel forum that you will enjoy. Have at it & enjoy. I'm too busy enjoying the tunes coming out of my system to be bothered getting into yet another debate about this issue.

booyaolian

cfrizz wrote: »

You obviously didn't see in my signature, that I now run a 405wpc Sunfire amp for all of my speakers. I couldn't hear a difference, which means I had reached the limit of the power that my Polks wanted with my Parasound amp. Just my back speakers showed me that they loved the extra power since they were the only ones un-amped when I got the Sunfire amp.

But let me be plain, I don't give a rats **** about logic, specifications, science, experimenting or any other of the stuff you obviously want to dig into. My ears are telling all that I need to know about how good my system sounds!

There is a discussion going on in the 2 channel forum that you will enjoy. Have at it & enjoy. I'm too busy enjoying the tunes coming out of my system to be bothered getting into yet another debate about this issue.

Sure thing..upgrade to 1000watts/ch amp u might hear difference tho.
Since there was no diff. between 40watts to 120watts.

All I can say is everyone is trying to justify with their purchase.....:rolleyes:

cfrizz

booyaolian wrote: »

Sure thing..upgrade to 1000watts/ch amp u might hear difference tho.
Since there was no diff. between 40watts to 120watts.

All I can say is everyone is trying to justify with their purchase.....:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:I have no need to justify anything to you or anyone else. I buy what I want & enjoy it to the fullest. If you don't like it tough s@#t, I certainly don't care.

Go to Audioholics, You will fit in just fine over there.:rolleyes:

Adds another yahoo to ignore list.

booyaolian

cfrizz wrote: »

:rolleyes:I have no need to justify anything to you or anyone else. I buy what I want & enjoy it to the fullest. If you don't like it tough s@#t, I certainly don't care.

Go to Audioholics, You will fit in just fine over there.:rolleyes:

Adds another yahoo to ignore list.

You don't have to prove anything man...You just have to convince yourself lol
Extra wattage to bring out more detail where were they hiding before? lmao
Quit suggesting hoax :rolleyes:

tonyb

booyaolian wrote: »

You don't have to prove anything man...You just have to convince yourself lol
Extra wattage to bring out more detail where were they hiding before? lmao
Quit suggesting hoax :rolleyes:

First of, Cathy is not a man, last time I checked anyway.
Second, more current will bring out the best in your speakers,fact.
Third, Cathy never suggests a hoax by any standard,Fact
Fourth, well, Cathy said it all. Fact

booyaolian

tonyb wrote: »

First of, Cathy is not a man, last time I checked anyway.
Second, more current will bring out the best in your speakers,fact.
Third, Cathy never suggests a hoax by any standard,Fact
Fourth, well, Cathy said it all. Fact

define "more" current...as I said "more" current 10,000watts amp will make speaker sound better?

Fact: Unscientific mombo jumbo created to misguided people - Hoax.

comfortablycurt

booyaolian wrote: »

define "more" current...as I said "more" current 10,000watts amp will make speaker sound better?

Fact: Unscientific mombo jumbo created to misguided people - Hoax.

Dude...

You're not gonna do well here. You should probably just leave now.

Almadacr

@ BtrSound i m also in the process of renewing my sound but money wise i m doing it by stages , yes this hobby can be painful to your wallet and don`t buy anything that you will regret in the future , most of this guys and gal know what they are talking about and you should listen or reed what they said and get the best bang for your buck . Like me i`m doing it by stages i already got my power amp ( emotiva UPA-7 ) since i got it from a great deal but even if i got a ok pioneer A/V amp (919) it dosen`t have pre amp out`s my second move will be the speakers since i heard the polk i liked and i`m making the move @ newegg they have great prices , but even thought i`m buying it piece by piece and the last will be the A/V amp ( in my case i m more inclined to go with pioneer ) but i know for sure that this will take a wile and i wont be enjoying it the UPA-7 but i can live with that , knowing that in the long run i will be using the full potential of my speakers and amp + power amp .

booyaolian

Curious and almost bizarre to see that these "knowledgeable" guy on here didn't even ask how big the room was. What if he is in a 10 by 10 room with pretty good acoustic (even thought 10by10 and good acoustic is somewhat an oxymoron). If he was utilizing 10watts of his receiver, then how is more power gonna do anything.

If it's a easy driven speaker not clipping or distorting how will there be more detail come out of nowhere?

Anyway, it's easy to test it out. Just get a decent headphone. stick it to the headphone amp and then your receiver. You always get more detail with cans anyway.

thmsbeeman

I actually own the denon avr-3311ci, polk rti A7,csi a6,and fxi A6.This reciever drives these speakers great @ its output but an amplifier does help reach the true sound of the speakers.I would suggest atleat 200wpc.More power will not make sound appear but it will clear up the sound and make the high,mid,and low end of the speaker blend better.A tweeter can be driven at 1 watt but it takes more to drive woofers and mids.That is the reason for more power just to make all drivers blend correctly.

tonyb

booyaolian wrote: »

If it's a easy driven speaker not clipping or distorting how will there be more detail come out of nowhere?

Anyway, it's easy to test it out. Just get a decent headphone. stick it to the headphone amp and then your receiver. You always get more detail with cans anyway.

Have you tried seperate amps ? You do realize Cans work great for one listener, but for HT, you better have an awfully big set.

thmsbeeman

I am running an adcom gfa-5500 for the fronts and an adcom gfa-5503 for te center and rears and what does the cans refer to

tonyb

Head phones....

tonyb

thmsbeeman wrote: »

I am running an adcom gfa-5500 for the fronts and an adcom gfa-5503 for te center and rears and what does the cans refer to

Maybe you can elaborate on your experience before adding an amp and then after as far as sound quality,detail, bass extension. We like to hear about others experiences.

thmsbeeman

These speakers are only the second set of polks i actually kept after hearig them,but when i first recieved them i went through a 80 hour break in period to ensure these speakers broke in evenly.After that i found the tweeters to be a little harsh.I was also lacking the punch feel on ht.It wa like the tweeters were over powering the rest of the speaker.Thats when i realized these speakers needed more power.They sounded beautiful when i pushed the reciever almost at max,And pretty good at normal volume.Then i added the power amp to make sure i wasnt wasting time with the newer rti line and i was amazed.The power amp made these speakers sound beautiful at any level.Once they recieved the power they needed everything smoothed out evenly and now its a home theater that you dont only hear every detail but you feel it aswell.

booyaolian

tonyb wrote: »

Have you tried seperate amps ? You do realize Cans work great for one listener, but for HT, you better have an awfully big set.

yes, the B&W. But not on my polk....Not sure boutthe particular RtiA7 but I got the RT1000i. Fair easy to drive. As Almost all Polk line are easy to drive I just assume this would be the same case.

As I did a quick google search on polk. I seem to be correct, The A1's measurement showed up
http://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-rtiii-a1-loudspeaker-measurements
Again, it might clear up some clairty/distortion issue for HT in mid/large room with high volume listening level.

But given a quick answer as "YES you need an upgrade amp immediately" goes like in my head.
Especially when the replies contain "I hear "extra" sound that I never heard before the amp upgrade"

Anyway that's all, peace out.

============
oh btw, u said, more current = better sound.
So does high current amp give better sound to cans?
That should be rhetorical .........

tonyb

thmsbeeman wrote: »

These speakers are only the second set of polks i actually kept after hearig them,but when i first recieved them i went through a 80 hour break in period to ensure these speakers broke in evenly.After that i found the tweeters to be a little harsh.I was also lacking the punch feel on ht.It wa like the tweeters were over powering the rest of the speaker.Thats when i realized these speakers needed more power.They sounded beautiful when i pushed the reciever almost at max,And pretty good at normal volume.Then i added the power amp to make sure i wasnt wasting time with the newer rti line and i was amazed.The power amp made these speakers sound beautiful at any level.Once they recieved the power they needed everything smoothed out evenly and now its a home theater that you dont only hear every detail but you feel it aswell.

Nice to hear friend, so I take it your a happy camper then ? What brought you to this forum if I may ask ? A hearty welcome is in order btw. What other gear are you using with the Polks ?

thmsbeeman

In regards to polks being easy to push i would have agreed before i recieved these speakers but i noticed the RTI A7 and RTI A9(my brothers speakers) are power hungry.My Rti A7's could take almost all of my denon avr-3311 before the woofers would begin to move and everything evened out,But that was before i added the power amps

thmsbeeman

Thank you for the welcome.I am very satisfied with these speakers.I have owned several high end speakers such as Martin logan clarity,B&W,Kef,Klipsch,magnapan.....but I ordered these speakers to test due to there beautiful cabinets.I figured the way there selling on ebay i couldnt loose.Then once i heard them at there potential I Loved the sound just as much as my B&W so i joined to see what everyones thoughts and ideas were since these are now my only ht speakers.ALong with the DENON AVR-3311 i am using the ADCOM gfa-5500,ADCOM gfa 5503,Denon bdp-1611 blu ray player,Belkin pf-60 power conditioner and A 58'' samsung plasma

tonyb

booyaolian wrote: »

yes, the B&W. But not on my polk....Not sure boutthe particular RtiA7 but I got the RT1000i. Fair easy to drive. As Almost all Polk line are easy to drive I just assume this would be the same case.

As I did a quick google search on polk. I seem to be correct, The A1's measurement showed up
http://www.stereophile.com/content/polk-rtiii-a1-loudspeaker-measurements
Again, it might clear up some clairty/distortion issue for HT in mid/large room with high volume listening level.

But given a quick answer as "YES you need an upgrade amp immediately" goes like in my head.
Especially when the replies contain "I hear "extra" sound that I never heard before the amp upgrade"

Anyway that's all, peace out.

============
oh btw, u said, more current = better sound.
So does high current amp give better sound to cans?
That should be rhetorical .........

The extra detail isn't created out of thin air, it's always been there. It's extracting it, and making it more profound,audible, that's the difference.
Can't help ya too much on the confused part,but I will tell you to bring your favorite cd and go around to different shops,play it on different systems,speakers,amps, and report back.

BTW- put the cans 10 feet from your ear, like a home speaker is, and tell me how good they sound.

tonyb

thmsbeeman wrote: »

Thank you for the welcome.I am very satisfied with these speakers.I have owned several high end speakers such as Martin logan clarity,B&W,Kef,Klipsch,magnapan.....but I ordered these speakers to test due to there beautiful cabinets.I figured the way there selling on ebay i couldnt loose.Then once i heard them at there potential I Loved the sound just as much as my B&W so i joined to see what everyones thoughts and ideas were since these are now my only ht speakers.ALong with the DENON AVR-3311 i am using the ADCOM gfa-5500,ADCOM gfa 5503,Denon bdp-1611 blu ray player,Belkin pf-60 power conditioner and A 58'' samsung plasma

Very nice, stick around,ask questions, jump in where ever you feel comfortable. Good to have ya aboard. We have a pretty broad base here of all brands of gear so don't feel like it all has to be Polk related. Again,Welcome to the madness.

thmsbeeman

tonyb wrote: »

The extra detail isn't created out of thin air, it's always been there. It's extracting it, and making it more profound,audible, that's the difference.
Can't help ya too much on the confused part,but I will tell you to bring your favorite cd and go around to different shops,play it on different systems,speakers,amps, and report back.

BTW- put the cans 10 feet from your ear, like a home speaker is, and tell me how good they sound.

I couldnt agree more.If you put the power to your system it requires you will push out faint noises and sounds that were there all along ,but were not noticeable from your seating position because there wasnt enough power to make that particular sound extend throughout the room