Denon 1911 & Rti A7 / Amplifier Question

BtrSound

I would like to thank you in advance for helping me with my questions.

(1) If adding a 5 channel amplifier to the Denon 1911, will the sound coming through the amplifier lose the sound processing from the 1911 in surround sound for movies etc.

(2) Is the 1911 strong enough to power the Polk Audio Rti A7's

(3) Does anyone recomend a reasonably priced Amp?

leroyjr1

You can't add an external amp to the 1911

nguyendot

1. no
2. no
3. any 5 channel from adcom, bk, parasound.

However, the 1911 doesn't have preouts according to leroy, so you're kind of out of luck. Time to purchase a new receiver.

cfrizz

nguyendot wrote: »

1. no
2. no
3. any 5 channel from adcom, bk, parasound.

However, the 1911 doesn't have preouts according to leroy, so you're kind of out of luck. Time to purchase a new receiver.

2. no, it will power them, but certainly nowhere near their full potential.

You will need a new receiver with preouts as well as an amplifier. WWW.audiogon.com is your friend for used amps, or Emotiva, and Outlaw for new reasonably priced amps.

Welcome to Club Polk.

mdaudioguy

What the above folks have said is that you'll need a receiver with pre-out connections in order to add an amplifier to your system. So, there's no point in considering an amp until you have a receiver that can function with one. That said, your sound quality can be greatly improved by going this route. Make sure you do some research here, as there are many good suggestion that have already been made for others using similar speakers.

For example, I went with a relatively inexpensive HK refurbished AVR - which after trying Yamaha and Onkyo, sounded better to me. I also added a used, but in excellent condition, Adcom amp and the result (to my ears) is very satisfying. Btw, the RTi10 speakers I have are the direct predecessors to your RTiA7. Others have had success with similar gear.

And, welcome to Club Polk!

tonyb

This is the reason we always suggest a receiver with pre-outs. The upgrade bug bites quickly when you start getting decent sound into your home.

BtrSound

Thank you all for your assistance. This addiciton is going to be an expensive one. i can tell already. So should I buy a beefy receiver that has more watts per channel with preouts so that I can expand if I deem necessary. Any recomendations as far as to what will sufficiently push the rti a7's? After reeding Lab Tests, the wattage that the receivers actually crank out is not accurate, and then there is the amperage vs wattage consideration.

cnh

What everyone is saying is don't worry so much about the AVR being 'beefy', just get one that has pre-outs for an external amp that will deal with the POWER.

Here are some options.

Harman Kardon AVR3600.....or older 25X series (cheaper).

Check out HKs ebay store: http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio/Harman-Kardon-/_i.html?_fsub=2&_sid=26519532&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

Onkyo TX-SR707/8

Refurb Onkyos (one year warranty): http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/AVReceiver/Home-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers/1.html

Pioneer VSX-32, or VSX-1120

Listen to a few of these.

If you want to stay with a NEW Denon, you'll have to step up the the AVR-3311 or buy an older AVR-2808/2809, etc.

Here's a good place to buy Denon B-stock (refurbs with a ONE year warranty...and save some coin):

http://www.dakmart.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=denon&osCsid=sunmt9iivtne4uid74hb3skiq7


cnh

BtrSound

Cnh,

I checked out the HK and AVR3600 and it is only rated at 80 watts per channel. I could not find any lab tests to find out how accurate that number is. The Denon 1911 is listed at 90 watts per channel and the Lab tests show them running 79 watts per channel X5 and 63 watts per channel X7. How do I know what the heck I am working with. Everyone talks about the higher voltage with the HK, but that really does not help the total wattage, just the consistency of the wattage , is that correct? Also, the pioneers scored really low. The VSX-920 Came in at a bismal 42.6 X5 and 36.7 X7 with all channels running. The Onkyo's do seem to run fairly true to power at about 87% and 90% of what was listed per the 608 and 808 respectibly.

cnh

Harman Kardon's ratings are truer to real life performance so that wattage is as good or better than both the Denon 1911, and the Onkyo 608...probably BETTER. All these receivers are High Current designs..the important point in measuring them is what Dynamic power is available for SHORT bursts not continuous ratings because they never run continuously at those levels on real soundtracks. It's how Dynamic a receiver is...how much reserve power it has. By those categories the HKs and the Onkyos rate well!

Wattage figures given by manufacturers (all channels driven) are either NEVER given or misrepresented. Don't worry about the 3600--it's as powerful as anything else in that list. And even the Onkyo 808 is not really much more powerful than the 608 in 7.1.

In fact, I own an Onkyo-TX-SR 805 which can put out much more power than the newer 808...it also weighs almost 51 lbs. compared to the lighter 808.

Weight is one factor you should consider that often reflects construction and build quality. The HK 3600 is, I believe, about 31.5 lbs. Both the 1911 and the 608 are at least 5-6 lbs lighter? The 808 weighs more.

Check out the weight difference between the Pioneer 920 and the 1120. The 1120 or 32 are the MORE powerful AVRs!

Again, NONE of these AVRS will bring out the true potential of the Rti towers without an external power amp.

cnh

PrazVT

+1 to what cnh is saying. I spent extra on the Denon 3311ci (advertised 125wpc), but it was the high current parasound amp that could actually do my RTi A7s any justice.

Get the least expensive receiver that has all the features you want (connectivity, video processing, dlna, etc.) that has pre-outs. Then jump onto Audiogon and find a nice 5 ch amp. It makes a world of difference.

BtrSound

I was under the impression that you could hook an external amplifier to the 1911, but it would have to run 5.1 instad of 7.1, and an external amplifier could be used for the front speakers. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

cfrizz

It sounds like you are trying not to get a separate amp. But what we are trying to tell you is that if you truly wish your speakers to operate to their full potential, any receiver by itself is NOT going to be able to do it.

Again get the lowest priced receiver that has all the bells & whistles that you want it to have as well as having preouts, then ALSO get a seperate amp.

Your Denon below does not have preouts for separate amplification.

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/images/products/AVR-1911/EL_AVR-1911_back.jpg

This Denon does.

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/images/products/AVR-3311CI/EL_AVR-3311CI_back.jpg

BtrSound

Correction: I could use channel 6 to bi amp my front speaker. Would that make a difference?

nguyendot

BtrSound wrote: »

I was under the impression that you could hook an external amplifier to the 1911, but it would have to run 5.1 instad of 7.1, and an external amplifier could be used for the front speakers. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

How, mind you, did you intend on passing signal from the 1911 to the external amp?

You seem pretty set on trying to do that, so before we continue any further, please PLEASE explain how you plan on actually achieving that hook-up.

cfrizz

You would still be taking inadequate power from the same inadequately powered receiver, thereby putting even more strain on the receiver.

BtrSound

Nguyen,

I am far from an expert. I am just trying to see what my options are before I drop another 2 Grand on a reciever and amplifier. that is all.

BtrSound

So, I assume I am looking for a 7.2 system. That way there is a pre amp for the sub and for the secondary amplifier?

If that is the case, would I be looking for a amp to fully power my speakers, or do you take the wattage that the reciever currently puts out into consideration?

B Run

BtrSound wrote: »

So, I assume I am looking for a 7.2 system. That way there is a pre amp for the sub and for the secondary amplifier?

If that is the case, would I be looking for a amp to fully power my speakers, or do you take the wattage that the reciever currently puts out into consideration?

The .2 just means it has 2 subwoofer pre outs. What you need is a receiver that has 5 or 7 preouts (front right,center,front left, rear....). The wattage the receiver puts out will not matter at all unless you decide to run your rear surrounds or something off of it in a 5 channel system and use a 5 channel amp for the rest. Otherwise just focus on a receiver that has the features you need and has pre outs.

nguyendot

When you add an external amp, your speakers attach to that. They no longer attach to the receiver, so the power output of the receiver is null.

You can get 5 and 7 channel amps if you want to fully power ALL the channels of your rig.

Basically what we've told you thus far:

1) look for a receiver with the bells/whistles you want, AND preouts for the 5/7 channels.
2) look for an amplifier with enough channels for what you would like to amplify.

You can always give us a price range and you will see many recommendations.

cfrizz

Your subwoofer already has an amplifier in it so there is no need to amp it as it is selfpowered.

BtrSound

I was considering the Denon 3311 or the Onkyo 808 or 1008. I like the features of the Panasonic 1120 and 1020, but have read that they do not run close to their power ratings. What do you think of these, or do you have any other recomendations. I guess I want the most bang for the buck, 1.4a, great sound quality, great video picture, HD radio, and obviously pre amp outputs.

nguyendot

Dude, you didn't have to make another thread for almost the same topic.

mdaudioguy

This doesn't have to be expensive. I went with the lowest model HK AVR with pre-outs - purchased factory-direct as a refurb (trust me, it was like new) for under $300. My 5-channel amp (used, but well-cared for - also like new) was about $450, IIRC. Look around, and you can do this on a budget and have a very nice result - and a few dollars left in your pocket for other upgrades.

BtrSound

What does everyone think about the Onkyo 708 or 808?

They do both have pre outs correct?

tonyb

Many here use them, many like them. Why do you like them ? Does it have the bells and whistles you want ? 808 Is a tad better, but as long as it has preouts, hdmi, knock yourself out. We all use a variety of gear here. ONKYO, HK, PIONEER, probably the most used brands, pick your poison.

cnh

BtrSound wrote: »

I was considering the Denon 3311 or the Onkyo 808 or 1008. I like the features of the Panasonic 1120 and 1020, but have read that they do not run close to their power ratings. What do you think of these, or do you have any other recomendations. I guess I want the most bang for the buck, 1.4a, great sound quality, great video picture, HD radio, and obviously pre amp outputs.

BtrSound wrote: »

What does everyone think about the Onkyo 708 or 808?

They do both have pre outs correct?

FIrst, the Pio 1020 is a little over 22 lbs and draws 245 watts.

The Pio 1120 is almost 29 lbs and draws 400 watts. There is NO way that they are equivalent power-wise.

And only the 1120 has pre-outs!

As for the Onkyo, yes either one will do. As tonyb points out, the 808 has a few more features--both have pre-outs.

Good Luck,

cnh

nguyendot

The 807 is cheap at accessories4less!

BtrSound

I have narrowed it down even further, but want to know what everyone thinks.

It looks like it is coming down to the Onkyo TX-NR1008/1007 or the Denon 3311.

The Onkyo is measured out as follows:

Factory rating 135w per channel
1 Channel: 177W
2 Channels 160w
5 Channels 125W
6 Channels 45W

It is also 9.2, so I can add two subs and bi amp the front two Rti a7's, while still keeping it in 7.1.

i could not find the lab tests for the 3311, but the precurser the AVR-989 (a precurser) came out as follows:

Factor rating: 115w per channel:
Bench Test:

1 Channel: 155w
2 channels: 130W
5 Channels: 112W
7 Channels: 100W.

It also have the ability to have two subs and pre outs for future expansion.

i know in HT it is rare to use all 7 channels, but I do like Multi channel for listening to music.

I do like the feature set on the Pioneer 1120, but the lab tests came out less than steller on the only test I could find and that was on the Pioneer VSX-1019AH.

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 28.7 watts
1% distortion at 34.3 watts

Not good. I assume that the 1120 has similar results.

the lab tests were from Sound and Vision Magazine and Home Theater Magazine.

Has anyone run the onk 1007 0r 1008 or the Denon 3311 with the Rti a7's? If so, what do you think?

nguyendot

It's not biamping man, doing that with the receiver won't do ANYTHING to help you. It won't get you more power, better sound, or anything good. The only true biamping is with two separate amplifiers with separate power supplies. You saw the power ratings into multiple channels, it lowers each time. 5 channels you get 125 w as you said.. but then 6 channels it drops to 45w? See how you aren't gaining anything by biamping with the receiver?

BtrSound

I see what you mean nguyendot. I figured 100x2 = 200 is better than 112 for the two fronts, since they do much of the heavy lifting and are my larger (more power hungry)speakers.


With bi amping out, I guess the 3311 is likely the best option. The Denon's seem to run failry consistent to spec, and i love the sound and picture on my 1911.

the speakers just do not seem to really come alive until -10 on the 1911 and at that point it becomes night and day. That does not leave much room between -10 and 10 (the highest I turn it up to avoid clipping).

I would really like to hear from someone with the 3311 and the RtiA7's or RTIa9's.

What kind of receiver do you have nguyendot?