Powering LSi 7/9/15/25 - you better have preouts baby!

obsidian

B Run wrote: »

Your friend couldn't be more incorrect honestly. I don't think any of those receivers are even rated to drive 4ohm speakers, and it can damage them. You really should look into a nice receiver with preouts and a used amp. It'll be a night and day difference in sound quality, it's not just about volume.

You're correct on the Denon...it's only rated down to 6ohm. However, the Onkyo NR-709 is rated for 4ohm. http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR709&class=Receiver&p=f

"Certified 4ohm performance"

It also has pre-outs in case I want to add amps later. Considering its ceritifed for 4ohm, much newer than I have now and I dont currently have any problems, and it's rated for a little higher power even, I shouldn't have much problem then right?

obsidian

Thanks for the info. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything that would damage my speakers. Seeing that the Onkyo NR-709 is certified on 4ohm there shouldn't be a risk of damage right? My budget is $500-600 so I think separate amplication is out of my budget currently. Maybe start with the NR-709...don't drive it super hard and then down the road I can get amps if I want better performance since the 709 has pre outs. Sound like a reasonable plan?

tonyb

Running a full LSI setup off a receiver is very risky. Your most likely doing damage to the speakers or receiver or both. Thing is, once the damage is done, it's done. Speakers aren't cheap these days so unless you have plenty of coin to keep throwing at them, invest in an amp for 4 ohm speakers or at least do some research on powering them before you go out and buy a 4 ohm speaker.

The 709 is still not enough. Get your read on. Receivers limit current on 4 ohms, when you should be looking to increase current.

obsidian

So what's the cheapest effective way to power them? Would I need separate amp for ALL channels or doing the fronts good enough and receiver handle the others?

nguyendot

The cheapest way? Buy a NAD receiver. It will power your full LSi setup, but probably not to the fullest. They are certified (most of them) to run 4 ohms, and not current limiting.

The most effective way? Buy a 5 channel amplifier to power them. Even Emotiva (yeah..yeah..) will do better than your receiver.

Here's one: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARMM7055/Marantz-MM7055-5-Channel-Power-Amplifier/1.html
It's just an example too. There are many choices out there, especially used.


Don't skimp, or the next post we'll see is your tweeters are fried on your LSi setup.

agco

How about an adcom gfa 7605 125w into 80hms 174 into 40hms . Would this work? Would it help on rti a1 fr and fxi3 bck and csi a4 cnt.

nguyendot

agco wrote: »

How about an adcom gfa 7605 125w into 80hms 174 into 40hms . Would this work? Would it help on rti a1 fr and fxi3 bck and csi a4 cnt.

Yes it would work very well. How big of an improvement depends on your current receiver.

agco

sony str da 3600 es.Thought of just getting a nad t765hd. Just trien to figure which would be better.

NickyRuggs

Noob here.... I jsut got a pair of LSi25's and was wondering two things.

1. Do I really need a separate amp for these? They come with their own. I would think with a good avr rated at 4 ohms and pre-outs direct to the LSI i'd be good. not perfect but pretty good.
2. What are some good avr's rated for 4-ohms?

welcome the feedback!

txcoastal1

The onboard amps are only for the subs, Nad and Onkyo have 4 ohm stable amps....I dont like the Onkyo to run the 25's have not heard them on the Nad...beware to get the best out of these speakers without damage look for seperates

tonyb

NickyRuggs wrote: »

Noob here.... I jsut got a pair of LSi25's and was wondering two things.

1. Do I really need a separate amp for these? They come with their own. I would think with a good avr rated at 4 ohms and pre-outs direct to the LSI i'd be good. not perfect but pretty good.
2. What are some good avr's rated for 4-ohms?

welcome the feedback!

Nguyendot- point....match bro. In the same thread yet.

dkg999

I watched two movies tonight running my LSi HT at fairly high volume and my B&K AVR 507s2 didn't even break a sweat. Great sound quality and dynamics also. You just need the right AVR to run LSi's, unfortunately that's a pretty small selection these days.

nguyendot

tonyb wrote: »

Nguyendot- point....match bro. In the same thread yet.

I guess it was worth it for one person..lol.

As stated by txcoastal - the inputs only power the subs. The mid/high section is still 4 ohms, and still needs separate amps. To DKG999, B&K and NAD do not fall into the same category that 99% of the receivers that people purchase. I did mention NAD in my OP. It will run them, and your LSi setup is fairly small (LSi9/7/c). Still, to get the most out of them it's best to get separates, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200w/channel.

tonyb

Yep, a 3 grand receiver thats built like seperates Doug isn't comparable to an Onkyo mid line receiver. Now their top one may do well but I suspect if the guy had that coin, he could buy a receiver and an amp no problem.

Unless you have a higher end receiver, get an amp for the LSI series. That is if you want to hear what you payed for in those speakers.

NickyRuggs

Thanks for the replies, I get the point of getting a separate amp, so a 2 channel amp rated for 4 ohms? Th also means I need to get a new AVR with preouts for L/R, correct? The question now becomes will a Denon or Onkyo suffice here?

deronb1

It took 220wpc to make my RTi12s do what they are supposed to do. 4 ohms means "high current" or there is gonna be a problem.

cfrizz

If you have no plans to add more LSI's then yes an amp of at least 200wpc @ 8ohms will suffice. So long as the Denon or Onkyo has preouts they will be ready to add the amp. As for amps, check Audiogon for Emotiva, Outlaw Audio, Carver, Sunfire, Rotel, Adcom, NAD, B & K.

frdranger

Well whatever you do, do NOT get the Onkyo TX-NR609 like I did; did research on it but the one little tidbit I never saw was that there was NO output for a preamp. Kinda stinks because now I'm limited to what I can get for speakers. Buyer beware!

nguyendot

Thats why we make a huge point to check for preouts on receivers. Unless you want to never upgrade, pre-outs are a necessity.

frdranger

nguyendot wrote: »

Thats why we make a huge point to check for preouts on receivers. Unless you want to never upgrade, pre-outs are a necessity.

I know, it was a silly mistake on my end. In any case why wouldn't they put a pre-out on such a feature-rich, newer receiver? That should practically be standard on every receiver unless I'm missing the reason why they wouldn't.

nguyendot

Cost is the main reason. The NR609 isn't a high end receiver by any means, it's mid-low. You have to go to the 7xx and 8xx series or higher to get pre-outs. And with the higher perceived power rating on those, mid-line pricing, and demographic that generally purchases that level of receiver, pre-outs are becoming even more scarce. Why? Because manufacturers know that 95% of those purchasing will not use the pre-out, they'll either purchase a higher end receiver, or don't want to spend the extra dough.

It's all economics and market placement. Pre-outs were standard 20 years ago, but now they're being done away with except on higher end and specialized equipment. Remember, we're part of that 5%.

frdranger

nguyendot wrote: »

Cost is the main reason. The NR609 isn't a high end receiver by any means, it's mid-low. You have to go to the 7xx and 8xx series or higher to get pre-outs. And with the higher perceived power rating on those, mid-line pricing, and demographic that generally purchases that level of receiver, pre-outs are becoming even more scarce. Why? Because manufacturers know that 95% of those purchasing will not use the pre-out, they'll either purchase a higher end receiver, or don't want to spend the extra dough.

It's all economics and market placement. Pre-outs were standard 20 years ago, but now they're being done away with except on higher end and specialized equipment. Remember, we're part of that 5%.

Yea, I guess you are right. Never really thought about it from that perspective.

Slightly OT: would the 609 drive a CSi A6? Thank you .

nguyendot

Yes it will drive it just fine. You can always do better, only you can decide if it's good enough for you. I ran the NR807 and it powered all 5 of my speakers fine. Given my front stage had 98-100db sensitivity ratings so power wasn't a huge issue. I still tried power amps, and have mine waiting for the day when LSi's roll around.

frdranger

nguyendot wrote: »

Yes it will drive it just fine. You can always do better, only you can decide if it's good enough for you. I ran the NR807 and it powered all 5 of my speakers fine. Given my front stage had 98-100db sensitivity ratings so power wasn't a huge issue. I still tried power amps, and have mine waiting for the day when LSi's roll around.

Thanks man, much appreciated. Hopefully it plays nice with my Paradigm's because I really would be a sad sap if I had to part with them. Thanks!

nguyendot

To be honest, your Paradigms are a class or two above your receiver.. I'd sell it and upgrade honestly. You have enough power, but Paradigm Reference are refined speakers....and demand a refined source of power.

frdranger

nguyendot wrote: »

To be honest, your Paradigms are a class or two above your receiver.. I'd sell it and upgrade honestly. You have enough power, but Paradigm Reference are refined speakers....and demand a refined source of power.

Yea, I'm, highly contemplating on doing that. Just not sure what to go for under the $500 price range. Will check out Denon or maybe the next step up with Onkyo. Thanks man!!

dkg999

I have the Paradigm Reference Studio 20v3 in a 2 ch office system. Until those tweeters have about 400 hrs on them, they are going to be pretty shrill with that Onkyo AVR. My NAD C720BEE receiver drives the Paradigm's just fine, however it has huge dynamic power reserves despite it's modest WPC rating.

frdranger

dkg999 wrote: »

I have the Paradigm Reference Studio 20v3 in a 2 ch office system. Until those tweeters have about 400 hrs on them, they are going to be pretty shrill with that Onkyo AVR. My NAD C720BEE receiver drives the Paradigm's just fine, however it has huge dynamic power reserves despite it's modest WPC rating.

My uncle had those speakers for a long time and they got good use out of them. So they're well broken in I'm sure. They do sound fine however, its just my center channel is lacklusting; need a little more "umph" and "whamph". CS1 I bought back in 2005.

nguyendot

Find a used SC-25 Pioneer elite....

tonyb

You'll be fine since your sub is taking most the heavy lifting off your fronts. If I were you, I'd look into upgrading that center channel, thats your weak link at the moment.