SRS upgrade questions
dcoil
Posts: 153
I just love this forum. Every time I get on and search for something I end up reading for an hour. An absolutely Amazing amount of great material. However after my search I still have these questions.
1) I'm about to start the XO upgrade on my SRS. I've purchased Mills resistors, and Sonicap and Axon caps. I think the largest Sonicap is 33uF so I had to get two 92uF and a 75uF Axon to replace the stock 260uF. I know even though cap is additive, you generally want to use the same values in parallel. What is the consensus of using these for the 260?
2) I need to replace the grille cloth. I've seen a couple of options throughout the forum but has anyone done listening tests? Recommendations?
3) I purchased the North Creek inductors (14 AWG, 16mH, 1.3ohm). I know from DK's review that placement of these can be critical:eek:. My SRS have a 'shelf' just under the XO that extends about 3" back. I can get the inductor on this (no way to put it on the board) in a horizontal position. Anyone have a 'better' location?
1) I'm about to start the XO upgrade on my SRS. I've purchased Mills resistors, and Sonicap and Axon caps. I think the largest Sonicap is 33uF so I had to get two 92uF and a 75uF Axon to replace the stock 260uF. I know even though cap is additive, you generally want to use the same values in parallel. What is the consensus of using these for the 260?
2) I need to replace the grille cloth. I've seen a couple of options throughout the forum but has anyone done listening tests? Recommendations?
3) I purchased the North Creek inductors (14 AWG, 16mH, 1.3ohm). I know from DK's review that placement of these can be critical:eek:. My SRS have a 'shelf' just under the XO that extends about 3" back. I can get the inductor on this (no way to put it on the board) in a horizontal position. Anyone have a 'better' location?
SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods...
Post edited by dcoil on
Comments
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I will be starting this exact upgrade in about 2 weeks, so I'll be following this thread closely!design is where science and art break even.
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Speakerworks for the grill cloth. I would nit buy it from anyone else..
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Your issue will be the 75uf and 2 92uf caps. The signal will choose the path of least resistance so the 75uf will get more signal than the 92uf's will. It will skew your sound badly.
If you can find a was to split it evenly between multiple caps you would be better off. Even if you loose a couple points. -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Speakerworks for the grill cloth. I would nit buy it from anyone else..
Even better than whatever Parts Express has to offer?Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
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Outfitter03 wrote: »
Thanks, I've looked all over for 130uF caps. Both of these have the same tolerance and price. Only difference is 250V vs 400V - any preference betwen the two?SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods... -
For same price I would say bigger is better if you have room. I have read some studies where voltage rating is believed to have an effect in sound quality within the same type of capacitor, but nothing is proven. A lot of the premium capacitors are 600v rated.
I am doing my first project with Erse products so can't speak from experience on their quality. I know that they are in the que so to speak for a review at humblehomemadehifi.com. They are also used in the larger values for manufactured upgrades at http://www.skiingninja.com/Articles.asp?ID=132.
Good Luck -
PolkMaster1 wrote: »Even better than whatever Parts Express has to offer?
Yep!!!! :cool:
PE grill cloth has kind of a purple look to it and don't glue down as easy IMO..
Speaker Works are of better quality.. -
I purchased the North Creek inductors (14 AWG, 16mH, 1.3ohm).
The SRS's are so bass heavy already that I don't think changing the inductor is a good idea. Not to mention you are going to kill that AVR.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thanks, I've looked all over for 130uF caps. Both of these have the same tolerance and price. Only difference is 250V vs 400V - any preference betwen the two?
I don't think the 400VDC is an issue. The ones I used are 600vdc and they sound awesome.. Of course I didn't need to make a 260uf equivalent cap with mine. -
The SRS's are so bass heavy already that I don't think changing the inductor is a good idea. Not to mention you are going to kill that AVR.
Yes, I'm sure your correct about my AVR. The Yamaha is rated to drive 4ohm speakers (fronts), and with the inductor change the overall DCR of the speaker should be in the 3.5 ohm range. I'll watch the little guy carefully. As you think this may be a bit of 'bass overkill', I'll sample the sound after the other XO'r modes, and then do the inductor separately. If it's a bit heavy for my tastes I'll go back to stock and have these to sell to set aside for a good amp. That's the next item on my list, just need to have some more savings to move forward. Everything I've read indicates I need at least 200W of high current supply to get these things to really open-up. In the meantime I'm enjoying the journey.SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods... -
I woudn't waste money upgrading the SRS's until you get some real amplification. Just my opinion as you'll never take full advantage of the upgrades with the AVR. Might not notice much difference at all. Upgrade the amplification then do the SRS's. Unless an upgrade to amplification is coming very soon.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
The SRS's are so bass heavy already that I don't think changing the inductor is a good idea.
I had some concern about this, but the inductor upgrade resulted in bass refinement to the point that it sounded like I had less bass. I didn't actually have less bass, I just had a much cleaner bass signal which translated to less cabinet resonance (and apparently less bass). On the other hand, I realized more bass tactile sensation after the inductor upgrade.
After the SRS inductor upgrade, a frequent visitor to my home remarked:"I don't like this. Now they sound just like the speakers (1.2TL's) in your living room."
Of course, the inductor upgrade did not make the SRS's sound "just like" the 1.2TL's, but they sounded closer to them in the bass region.
Link: SRS SDA Inductor Upgrade Preliminary ResultsNot to mention you are going to kill that AVR.
Yeah, that AVR may be rated for 4 ohms, but some 4 ohm speakers are more brutal than others.Yes, I'm sure your correct about my AVR. The Yamaha is rated to drive 4ohm speakers (fronts), and with the inductor change the overall DCR of the speaker should be in the 3.5 ohm range. I'll watch the little guy carefully. As you think this may be a bit of 'bass overkill', I'll sample the sound after the other XO'r modes, and then do the inductor separately. If it's a bit heavy for my tastes I'll go back to stock and have these to sell to set aside for a good amp. That's the next item on my list, just need to have some more savings to move forward. Everything I've read indicates I need at least 200W of high current supply to get these things to really open-up. In the meantime I'm enjoying the journey.
The DCR of each of my modified SRS's decreased from 4.7 ohms to 4.4 ohms when the 16 mH inductor was replaced.
The DCR of my modified 1.2TL's decreased from 3.8 and 3.9 ohms to 3.4 ohms each when the 16 mH inductor was replaced.
The SRS crossover upgrade, driver and passive radiator rings, Mortite and Dynamat Xtreme all contributed to a cleaner, more detailed bass signal, with a commensurate reduction in cabinet resonance.I woudn't waste money upgrading the SRS's until you get some real amplification. Just my opinion as you'll never take full advantage of the upgrades with the AVR. Might not notice much difference at all. Upgrade the amplification then do the SRS's. Unless an upgrade to amplification is coming very soon.
That is very good advice.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
The speaker's DCR only tells a small part of the story of the complete speaker's impedance curve.DarqueKnight wrote: »Yeah, that AVR may be rated for 4 ohms, but some 4 ohm speakers are more brutal than others.
The DCR of each of my modified SRS's decreased from 4.7 ohms to 4.4 ohms when the 16 mH inductor was replaced.
The DCR of my modified 1.2TL's decreased from 3.8 and 3.9 ohms to 3.4 ohms each when the 16 mH inductor was replaced."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
The speaker's DCR only tells a small part of the story of the complete speaker's impedance curve.
True but one might expect the AC impedance to changed only by the same small amount atleast in the frequency range of the driver(s)with the reduced DCR. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I had some concern about this, but the inductor upgrade resulted in bass refinement to the point that it sounded like I had less bass. I didn't actually have less bass, I just had a much cleaner bass signal which translated to less cabinet resonance (and apparently less bass). On the other hand, I realized more bass tactile sensation after the inductor upgrade.
Good to know, thanks Ray.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
DarqueKnight wrote: »Link: SRS SDA Inductor Upgrade Preliminary Results
Yeah, that AVR may be rated for 4 ohms, but some 4 ohm speakers are more brutal than others.
The DCR of each of my modified SRS's decreased from 4.7 ohms to 4.4 ohms when the 16 mH inductor was replaced.
Thanks for the link Ray. I've seen this before but for some reason couldn't find it (just the post on your 1.2's). Can I ask where did you get those Solen 130uF caps?
And OK, I REALLY get the message for the better amplification (DK, heiney9, F1nut, etc.). This just moved up to the top of my long and growing list.... Anyone have a part time job openeing to help me feed this vortex??SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods... -
The caps came from http://www.partsconnexion.com They are Solen PB series.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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Not only get better amplification I also suggest going separates (preamp) If you really want to hear what those speakers can do "GO SEPARATES"
Moving from a receiver (even with an external amp) to a preamp was a huge upgrade! one of the most important ones.
Receivers Suck (your basic ones you can buy anywhere that is) for 2 channel.
JMHHO... -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Moving from a receiver (even with an external amp) to a preamp was a huge upgrade! one of the most important ones.
DK, thanks for the link for the caps. TFL, any 'intro' (read cheapest decent system
) recommendations for a pre and amp? SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods... -
I got in to a pre GFP-715 adcom for about $325 and a GFA-585 for around $550 I think you can get into it a little cheaper but trust me once you start there it's all over.
I am know very far from those days. Don't get me wrong there are a few more things I want to upgrade but I will never have to worry about amps I'm not sure I can do any better with what I got at the moment..
Look for an entry pre like Adcom, Rotel ect.. But heed my warning and enjoy!! Once you get started and have things you can sell and a little extra cash to upgrade it really gets fun!!
Again Enjoy!!!! Your speakers will love you with every upgrade and will show you that everytime you power up..
Larry. -
Your issue will be the 75uf and 2 92uf caps. The signal will choose the path of least resistance so the 75uf will get more signal than the 92uf's will. It will skew your sound badly.
If you can find a was to split it evenly between multiple caps you would be better off. Even if you loose a couple points.
On what version of reality do you base this?cristo
NAD C 545BEE cd player, Philips AF877 turntable / Shure V15V-MR with JICO SAS stylus,
Tascam 122 mkIII cassette deck, Harman Kardon 3480 receiver, Terk FM-50 antenna in the attic,
Soundcraftsmen SE550 stereo equalizer, Polk Monitor 10a speakers
(with Sonicraft/Solen/Mills crossover rebuild) -
On what version of reality do you base this?
I believe it is called Ohm's Law. http://www.coilgun.info/theorycapacitors/capacitors2.htm
About half way down the page you will see this.
Caution: If the capacitors are different, the voltage will divide itself such that smaller capacitors hog more of the voltage! This is because they all get the same charging current, and voltage is inversely proportional to capacitance.
Welcome to reality... -
Splitting the capacitor values in half will be better for spacial information also."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Your issue will be the 75uf and 2 92uf caps. The signal will choose the path of least resistance so the 75uf will get more signal than the 92uf's will. It will skew your sound badly.
If you can find a was to split it evenly between multiple caps you would be better off. Even if you loose a couple points.I believe it is called Ohm's Law. http://www.coilgun.info/theorycapacitors/capacitors2.htm
About half way down the page you will see this.
Caution: If the capacitors are different, the voltage will divide itself such that smaller capacitors hog more of the voltage! This is because they all get the same charging current, and voltage is inversely proportional to capacitance.
Welcome to reality...
I agree fully with Ohm's Law,
but I was wondering about the part I highlighted in red above.
My question stands regarding that.
Another question: what are loose points? are they the opposite of tight points?
http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/looselose.htmlcristo
NAD C 545BEE cd player, Philips AF877 turntable / Shure V15V-MR with JICO SAS stylus,
Tascam 122 mkIII cassette deck, Harman Kardon 3480 receiver, Terk FM-50 antenna in the attic,
Soundcraftsmen SE550 stereo equalizer, Polk Monitor 10a speakers
(with Sonicraft/Solen/Mills crossover rebuild) -
Your issue will be the 75uf and 2 92uf caps. The signal will choose the path of least resistance so the 75uf will get more signal than the 92uf's will. It will skew your sound badly.
If you can find a was to split it evenly between multiple caps you would be better off. Even if you loose a couple points.I believe it is called Ohm's Law. http://www.coilgun.info/theorycapacitors/capacitors2.htm
About half way down the page you will see this.
Caution: If the capacitors are different, the voltage will divide itself such that smaller capacitors hog more of the voltage! This is because they all get the same charging current, and voltage is inversely proportional to capacitance.
Welcome to reality...I agree fully with Ohm's Law,
but I was wondering about the part I highlighted in red above.
My question stands regarding that.
With regard to the skewing mentioned by Joe, as Face mentioned, using unequal parallel capacitors when the design does not specify this can result in errors in spatial rendering of sound images. Other response abnormalities can also result such as the high frequency artifacts that appear when high quality film capacitors are bypassed (paralleled) with much smaller capacitors.Another question: what are loose points? are they the opposite of tight points?
http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/looselose.html
I believe he meant that, even if the paired capacitors to not exactly equal the target capacitance value (you "lose" some capacitance), you are better off using an equal pair that is with the tolerance range of target value rather than using unequal capacitor values that exactly add to the target value. I think the "points" he refers to are lost amounts of capacitance.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »With regard to the skewing mentioned by Joe, as Face mentioned, using unequal parallel capacitors when the design does not specify this can result in errors in spatial rendering of sound images. Other response abnormalities can also result such as the high frequency artifacts that appear when high quality film capacitors are bypassed (paralleled) with much smaller capacitors.
I believe he meant that, even if the paired capacitors to not exactly equal the target capacitance value (you "lose" some capacitance), you are better off using an equal pair that is with the tolerance range of target value rather than using unequal capacitor values that exactly add to the target value. I think the "points" he refers to are lost amounts of capacitance.
Exactly what I meant just not said as well as you have.
What I am trying to convey to the OP would be that he is better off getting with in a decent tolerance say +or- 2% of the needed capacitance than in mixing and matching to get the exact #.
The points I referred to was the amount of capacitance. I was being lazy and didn't want to write out capacitance 15 times. Of course that bit me in the but since I have written it several time in this post. Capacitance. -
^^^Don't sweat it. Those of us who are into this sort of thing know what you meant.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Thats for capacitors that are connected in series.The voltage will be the same across paralleled capacitors.Personally I would never use paralleled caps in the seiries part of a hi pass or bandpass filter for a midrange.However I would have no quams about using paralleled capacitors in the shunt leg of a low pass filter if very large values were required.As always YMMV.About half way down the page you will see this.
Caution: If the capacitors are different, the voltage will divide itself such that smaller capacitors hog more of the voltage! This is because they all get the same charging current, and voltage is inversely proportional to capacitance.
Welcome to reality... -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »I got in to a pre GFP-715 adcom for about $325 and a GFA-585 for around $550 I think you can get into it a little cheaper but trust me once you start there it's all over.
I am know very far from those days. Don't get me wrong there are a few more things I want to upgrade but I will never have to worry about amps I'm not sure I can do any better with what I got at the moment..
Look for an entry pre like Adcom, Rotel ect.. But heed my warning and enjoy!! Once you get started and have things you can sell and a little extra cash to upgrade it really gets fun!!
Again Enjoy!!!! Your speakers will love you with every upgrade and will show you that everytime you power up..
Larry.
Larry, I noticed that you have also used the XPA-2. I've looked for a GFA -585 and these are not easy to come by. My other concern is in what shape I will find it, and how much $ to get it up to snuff. The XPA-2 would be new (all new caps, etc.) and comes with a good warranty. I would really be interested in your impression of the XPA-2? SDA SRS modded: Xovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDOd, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods...
