receivers

Airplay355 · July 2003

there is a such thing as a receiver or component just not sounding good with a certain speaker....right?

i have an aiwa AV-D57 which is a pretty **** receiver. its rated at 100 watts per channel but thats with .9 THD and not the full frequency range, so that rating means nothing.

my dad has a luxman which is about 15 years old which is also rated at 100 watts per channel. the SPL from the volume 1/3 of the way up is the same as my aiwas max. i like the sound of my aiwa much much better though, paried with my rti150's it sounds very very bad aside from the bass. the highs are piercing and over power everything. it is painful to listen to.

is this just because the equipment is old and the speakers are new? is this a trait of the speakers? or does this pair just suck?

is this going to be the case with all gear? im upgrading my receiver soon and if this is what it's going to sound like then forget it.

i know that diferent receivers will sound differently with the same speakers, i just wanted to ask in hopes of obtaining some information i haven't heard of before.

VR3 · July 2003

Will you get off the OLD and NEW?
My speakers are 2 years old. My amps range from 15-10 years old. My amps can kick my speakers butts anyday of the week.
Your Dad's amp seems to either not mate with the Polk or more the less has been abused to the point it just sounds bad all together. It could possibly just be damaged.
Then again, it also may not like the 500 watts the RTi150 can handle. Your Dad's amp, from what you tell me, has alotta problems.
Brands That Mate Well With Polk:
Adcom
NAD
Rotel (LSi)
Denon (YACK)
Yamaha
Marantz
Onkyo
Most any basic Receiver company

I do not know how the Marantz will sound compared to your aiwa. I just hope to god it out performs it (the maratanz outperform the aiwa). HaHa, it probally will, with out a doubt.

Tour2ma · July 2003

Agree with Sid. It is not necessarily an old/ new thing.

There are some parings that just don't marry well. Speakers and electronics all emphasize and deemphasize certain frequencies to some extent. When you get a pairing that both emphasize the same frequencies, or deemphaisze the same the sound, is colored. Not necessarily a bad thing, it can actually be pleasing to some ears, but often is not desirable.

RuSsMaN · July 2003

Agreed with everything stated so far. (Is Sid actually growing? Getting a clue, if you will? AWESOME)

Awia is cheap stuff, period. In thier LONG history, there are renown for *nothing*, except maybe the price.

Crack the top open on the Awia, and the Luxman. Notice the size of the transformer, and the caps first of all. Luxman is GREAT gear. I had an R-113 receiver for some time, 35w continous per channel. I brought it to a buddies house, and we hooked it up to some VERY inefficient older NHT towers.

Needless to say, it drove them (unclipped) to levels I would NEVER care to listen to.

You've just experienced the difference GOOD CLEAN power can make, and yes, it CAN be found in a receiver, both old AND new.

As far as the points made so far, on gear mating well with certain speakers, its true. A lot of people find Klipsch to be 'bright and forward', a lot of people think Yamaha's preamp stage is 'bright and forward'. Mix the two, hold onto your eardrums. BUT, with that said, one man's 'bright', is another man's 'detail'.

Keep looking around, and if you are on a budget, look for some good used (even older) gear.

Cheers,
Rooster

mantis · July 2003

Airplay355
lets cut to the chase.....you have top of the line rt series speakers that cost retail about 1600.00.These are not cheap speakers.Why drive them with cheap electronics.

You should look into Denon.I have found Denon to be the very best sounding receivers to mate with polk rt series speakers.Your level would be at least the avr3803 or getting tricky would be the avr4802r.These receivers would make you want to run your Awia over with a truck......and never look back.

Hey Awia is where you started your journey.......don't look back.As Russ pointed out,Awia is known for NOTHING.It's cheap gear.That's why your speakers sound like Hell.They are capable of so much more.You'll see.........
Dan

amulford · July 2003

I don't know what your budget might be, but I would look into either Denon or Sunfire. I have both, and I like both.

The Denons are reasonable. The Sunfire stuff can get a little pricey, but it's good ****.

Airplay355 · July 2003

you will all be pleased to know that im getting a marantz sr7200 at the end of the month. sunfire is definetely out of my budget lol but it would be nice to have them. thanks for the input. any other suggestions on gear?

Ceruleance · July 2003

I think any receiver (aside from the stratospheric ones) won't be able to due those 150's justice. You should consider adding an external amp. If you dont mind the used market you can bag some awesome watt / dollar deals on ebay and the like. Look into Carver and Adcom for the best value for your dollar. If you really care about aesthetics, you may have to look a bit harder or spend a bit more to get what you need, otherwise you should be set.

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Originally posted by Ceruleance
I think any receiver (aside from the stratospheric ones) won't be able to due those 150's justice. You should consider adding an external amp.

Agreed. I'm with Dan all day on the Denon sonically mating well with the RTi series. But this is also a power issue.

We've been down the RTi150 road a number of times. Unless you are running them on full range, the woofs are being wasted. And run on full range, those woofs are going to suck some serious current. Remember, Polk uses 300 watts per side on the OOP RT3000p subs, and that is just for the twin 8" woofs. Three 6.5" passive woofs are at least the equal of twin 8" in terms of power requirements.

To really strut their stuff, I wouldn't power the 150s with anything less than 300 per. Remember, doubling the power only yield a 3 dB increase in volume, so we aren't talking crazy here.

I'd get the 3803 and invest in a beefy high current 2 channel amp in the 300W range and run the 150's off the 3803 pre-outs. The 3803 has plenty of clean power to run the rest of the speaks for HT.

The 150's will dig as deep as any Polk sub out there, so for HT, I'd run them on large with the sub set to yes/on and the rest of the speaks set to small. That will send the 150's a full range signal and the sub the LFE channel and the low passed bass from the center/surrounds. A good compromise, I think.

If you don't have a sub, set the 150's to large, the sub to off/no, and the rest of the speaks to small. That will send all the bass to the 150's, making the need for a high current external amp all the more important.

Doc

Airplay355 · July 2003

i'm getting a marantz sr7200, its $499 so thats why i have decided on it. it has 110 wpc and preouts to 7.1 channels. i completely understand your concerns and i will probably end up getting a seperate amp. but just to show you how unpicky i am, im running the rti150's on my aiwa with 100 wpc...aiwa watts that is, and i like the way it sounds so i think that i will be able to live with running them off my receiver, until i have the funds to get a nice amp.

once i did buy an amp would i run into any problems with running the rti150s off the amp and the rest of the speakers...probably 6.1 so 4 speakers off the receiver? are the rti150's going to overpower or sound cleaner and stand out from the rest of the speakers if i do this?

thanks

VR3 · July 2003

To shorten this up, depending on the Amp you get.

Yes. It will be night and day.

VR3 · July 2003

Receivers will never sound as good as amps.

Unles you house the amps in a seperate compartment below the electronics inside the receiver. And have seperate amps in there, like Outlaw does their multichannel amps. Receiver do not hold their own against anything. Infact, price performance - their lame. A cheap receiver, mid/low fi amps will outperform a 2 to 3 times the price receiver. (in sound quality.) IMO of course.

Airplay355 · July 2003

trey u talkin about discrete amplification?

VR3 · July 2003

DuuuuuuuuuuuuuDe, I am talking about any amp you buy worth 2 cents is going to take your marantz and kick its ****$!

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Originally posted by Airplay355
once i did buy an amp would i run into any problems with running the rti150s off the amp and the rest of the speakers...probably 6.1 so 4 speakers off the receiver? are the rti150's going to overpower or sound cleaner and stand out from the rest of the speakers if i do this?thanks

You will have no probs running the other 4 speaks off the Marantz.

The 150's will not overpower the rest of the system if they are calibrated properly. The reason they need at least 600 watts of high current amp is because they will be handling ALL of your bass requirements for HT, not because the amp in your Marantz is necessarily **** sounding.

The Marantz pre/pro DSP and DACs will determine the sound quality of the 150's with a separate amp as much as anything. This is more a matter of the Marantz having inadequate power and current reserves for the intended application than anything else. An amp's job is to amplify the input signal, not add color to the sound with its own unique sonic signature.

I have a high quality Harman Kardon h/k870 2 channel amp rated at 100 watts and 60 amps instantaneous current capacity. It has huge caps and transformer and weighs about 40 pounds - as much as my entire 3803. Before I bi-wired with the M1.4's, I hooked it up to my 3803 pre-outs and ran my 800's with it. You guessed it - the 800's have the same sonic signature running off the h/k 870 as they do hooked directly to the 3803.

I will not begrudge anyone who switches to an external amp on an AVR and suddenly the skies open and the angels sing. I just didn't hear it on my rig. Maybe the 3803 amps are already very decent quality and if run within their power and current limits will sound just as good as a decent external amp. That's the only explanation I can come up with.

Doc

VR3 · July 2003

Some hear it some dont.

But to put this down on the table

Airplay is running 100 watt aiwa receiver, he enjoys the sound. That alone is enuff to explain to me, anything will satisfy him.

Airplay355 · July 2003

just because i am able to enjoy my system running on a **** low current aiwa doesnt mean anything will satisfy me, i can still notice many weaknesses and i mean many about the aiwa that drive me crazy, thats y im upgrading. the rti150's on the luxman receiver sounded horrible, im surprised i didnt break the windows in the room with the brightness, it was ear shattering. i understand what your are saying but for me atleast, the rti150's do not need the 300 watts from a seperate amp to becaome a nice speaker, they need the 300 watts to perform close to their best, they will still be a very fine speaker running off the receiver.

so Doc, you don't think the 150's will sound different then the rest of my system with a seperate amp? i know i could calibrate them so they wouldnt be louder but because the signal is stronger and clearer wouldnt they sound different? and possible destroy the seamless front soundstage i want?

VR3 · July 2003

Depends on what you hear man.
Some people, its night and day, others dont notice a difference. But I would definetely think a mid line receiver will be outperformed by the cheapest of amps. May have the same sonic signature, but it will be a different sound. Much cleaner power going to the speakers. Etc. I understand Doc. But common sense just tells me other wise.

Airplay355 · July 2003

im not arguing that the marantz will outpreform a seperate amp, im just arguing that i dont need a seperate amp to be able to enjoy my rti105's...i mean c'mon im enjoying them on the aiwa lol

VR3 · July 2003

Im not arguing, I am making a statement. LoL!
A seperate amp, IMO of course will sound more dynamic, cleaner, all that good stuff in comparison. I'm not saying you can't enjoy them. I heard the RTi150 on a receiver. I enjoyed them very much. Just felt they could do much more

Airplay355 · July 2003

MORE is the key word here huh...we always want more, more sleep, more women, more bass, more money...where does it end

VR3 · July 2003

you forgot FOOD........

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
May have the same sonic signature, but it will be a different sound.

Good one, Sid.

"so Doc, you don't think the 150's will sound different then the rest of my system with a seperate amp? i know i could calibrate them so they wouldnt be louder but because the signal is stronger and clearer wouldnt they sound different? and possible destroy the seamless front soundstage i want?"

I think if the amps are of decent quality in the Marantz, then the difference between the sound of the Marantz driving the 150's, and the sound of the Marantz driving the 150's through an external amp - will be minimal - IF you don't overdrive the Marantz amps. That was my experience with the 3803 and the h/k870.

My whole point is 100 watts of relatively low current Marantz power can go out the window very quickly when trying to drive three 6.5" woofs to any reasonable level. Clip the Marantz and you are looking at blown tweets at a minimum. It's just not enough power and current (especially current) to get the job done adequately if you are running them on large with no sub and the rest of the speaks on small. That's a TON of bass duty and the Marantz ain't gonna cut it except at very reasonable volumes.

If you want to be a charter member of the PWC, then seriously consider a beefy high current amp to run the 150s and let the Marantz amps handle the small high passed speaks and life will be good.

Now if you used a separate pre/pro and a separate amp and compared it to the Marantz- yes, I would expect that to be clearly audible as you are altering all the processing circuitry.

I guess it all comes down to the quality of the amps in the AVR. Does anyone really expect the B&K AVR507 to sound much different than the Ref 50 paired with the 125.7? I hope not, because they are essentially the same components.

In Sid's defense, I know Ron-P was running a Marantz AVR and he upgraded to external Adcom amps while still using the Marantz as a pre/pro and he noticed an obvious improvement in sound quality. Maybe you should get his opinion too. I can only speak from my own experience, and the 3803 amps sound every bit as good as the h/k870 amp on my 800's.

Doc

VR3 · July 2003

Thanx Doc.

We all know what I think about Denon. Don't have to explain.

Never heard Marantz. I hear their nice stuff. But as Ron said. His 76?? Watt Marantz receiver vs. the 60 watt Adcomer, no contest. Adcom hands down. Watts are numbers, the power supply is the real ****$.

I agree with Doc. You need a high current amp for the RTi150. The RTi150's woofers will drain the life out of that marantz like a skeeter on a redneck.

burdette · July 2003

I will give at least one cheer for Aiwa through history: during the early 80s, they made some very nice 3-hd cassette decks at reasonable prices. The 660/770/990 series were great decks, as were maybe 1 or 2 model years after that, and the occasional deck until the early 90s.

Reliability started to drop off quick, on the heels of a shift to less expensive electronics. They started to supply Radio Shack with rebadged units, shifted to boom boxes and mini systems, and that was that.

Airplay355 · July 2003

my uncle just decided that he could get his old stereo back from when he was in colledge for free! and give/sell it to me since he has no space for it...it consists of all nakamichi components, amp, preamp and cassette deck and some yamaha monitors i think.

whats the 411 on the nakamichi stuff? anyone have expirence with their stuff? would it be worth trying to get to use the amp to power the rti150s?

polkatese · July 2003

the old nakamichi were great! reference series such as Dragon tape deck still fetch good money. I had one back in the 80's, how long ago was he in College?

dorokusai · July 2003

Yea, that Dragon deck was simply bad ****! I've heard great things about vintage Nakamichi.

Airplay355 · July 2003

he was in college a while ago...70's i think...i saw it sorta and its nice stuff i guess, i didnt really see it too well cuz it was in a barn

so idk, it had a huge dial on it tho, idk what thats for? ne ideas? that im guessing was the preamp/tuner, or just the tuner i have no idea tho i could barely see it

VR3 · July 2003

a barn eh?

Blarin music for da cows eh?

Tour2ma · July 2003

burdette,
Big nod yes on your Aiwa comments. I have a model 950 cassette deck that will duplicate a CD pretty damn well. Very nice machine...

Airplay,
70's would be about right for the Nakamichi gear. Their decks were among the most, if not the most acclaimed ever made. Don't know much about their other electronics, so got a search on for us...
http://www.audioreview.com/SearchResultscrx.aspx
EDIT: Well the search results dont link, but just type in Nakamichi...

Did not remember them marketing CD Players and more than a bit surprised to see they were still around when HT hit.

receivers

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