Which AVR before adding power amp

larry777

I have the Rti10 fronts,CSiA6 Center and RTi4 Surrounds with an SVS Sub. I am thinking about adding a Power Amplifier but would have to upgrade my AVR first to get Preouts. Current AVR is Denon AVR 888. My thought was a H/K 3600 or a comparable Denon AVR. I like Emotiva Price/Value and could consider the XPA-3 or XPA-5....Possibly the UPA series 5.1 or 7.1.... I thought the AVR Amps could run my surrounds ( Either 5.1 or 7.1 although I currently have a 5.1 set up with 2 Rti4's not in use) Room size Aprox 15x22 with openings all around to the Kitchen,down stairs and a hallway. Would one of these options be a better setup than another ? Would the XPA Amp be too much for the RTI4's rated at 125 watts channel ? Please add any thoughts as to another combination or would something above do the job. It will mostly be used for H/T,but music is a consideration.

polrbehr

Budget always comes into play here; too many variables to give you one answer. There are scores of AVRs, amps, and pre-amps out there to try.
Do you want new or used?

I happen to like/own a Denon (2106) as well, and use the pre-outs to a 2ch Adcom GFA555 just to power the RTi10s I use as fronts, and that has made an amazing difference. I can now enjoy the occasional music on my HT setup with none of the brightness I had before. IMO, the Denon is fine on its own powering the center and two surrounds I have, so I decided not to upgrade to a 5ch amp.

You didn't specify how long you've had your current setup in place, but I would get some listening time in with what you have now before changing out the Denon (or anything). It will make your upgrades that much more noticeable.
Welcome to ClubPolk, too.

larry777

Thanks for the reply. I had my current setup in place for about 2 yrs and it actually sounds quite good. But I know the front RTi10's and CSiA6 Center would likely sound better with more power than the Denon 100 Wpc has. New or Quality used would be ok. Budget maybe $1500 or less. Watching movies and Tv would be the main use of this system with sme music mixed in. I am not looking for Real High Volume but Quality sound and dynamics....Quality explosions from action movies etc. The Denon Avr-888 has no Preouts except Sub and Zone 2 Channels.

disneyjoe7

More power to a speaker is better then too little power to a speaker. I wouldn't be afraid to place more watts to a speaker which may require a little less, you're in control of the volume.

larry777

Thanks for the replys and the welcome to Club Polk. So it sounds like I could keep the RTi4's in play for the Surrounds ( 2 or 4 ) with reasonable volume even if driven with a 200 watt amp. Or I could use an AVR for the surrounds. The Emotiva XPA-3 is one of the amps I was thinking about for the front 3 as compared to going with the XPA-5. I guess a warmer Receiver like H/K or possibly Denon to run the other speakers would fit in nicely ,and supplying the Preouts for the Amplifier then ? Do you need a Quality Receiver to give Quality Preouts also ?

Toolfan66

Just get the Pioneer SC-07 and call it a day.. It will power you speakers just fine..

Toolfan66

You can also look at the Pioneer SC-37 as well

Both can be had for around a grand now if you shop it..

They will give you everything you need for now and you will have one kick **** AVR then worry about an amp later on.

Toolfan66

xcapri79 wrote: »

I disagree. As nice as the SC-07 is, the XPA-3 amp will make those RTi10's sound better.

Not!! Funny how my RTiA9's sound better with just the Pioneer and not the XPA-3. You fail to remember I have that amp.

and you would be the first to disagree. If you think I'm wrong in suggesting the OP get a better AVR for now and worry about the AMP later Then you don't get it. That pioneer will power the 10's fine all by it's self.

It's a great start IMHO..

leroyjr1

IMO I'd rather have a good start, starting off with a good receiver and adding a amp later if needed is a great starting point.

Toolfan66

leroyjr1 wrote: »

IMO I'd rather have a good start, starting off with a good receiver and adding a amp later if needed is a great starting point.

Yep!!! And the I wonder If's won't eat at you. A great AVR can last you a lifetime.

Toolfan66

There is one at the bestbuy near me for $1200 or was one..

Most new AVR's are going 3D compatible. It took everything I had not to buy it..

They had a 35 for a grand..

Toolfan66

Ouch!!! Mud in my face it was the 25/27 my bad..

The 35/37 are 3D compatible..

So look for the SC-07 / SC-27

messiah

Ignore the Emo fanboy, and just follow Larry's advice. Pioneer sc-35/37 and you're done. Emo doesn't even come close.

mantis

larry777 wrote: »

I have the Rti10 fronts,CSiA6 Center and RTi4 Surrounds with an SVS Sub. I am thinking about adding a Power Amplifier but would have to upgrade my AVR first to get Preouts. Current AVR is Denon AVR 888. My thought was a H/K 3600 or a comparable Denon AVR. I like Emotiva Price/Value and could consider the XPA-3 or XPA-5....Possibly the UPA series 5.1 or 7.1.... I thought the AVR Amps could run my surrounds ( Either 5.1 or 7.1 although I currently have a 5.1 set up with 2 Rti4's not in use) Room size Aprox 15x22 with openings all around to the Kitchen,down stairs and a hallway. Would one of these options be a better setup than another ? Would the XPA Amp be too much for the RTI4's rated at 125 watts channel ? Please add any thoughts as to another combination or would something above do the job. It will mostly be used for H/T,but music is a consideration.

I suggest a used Pioneer Elite SC-25. It has plenty of power to run your speaker package and then some. Especially since you have a SVS sub which then you can run all speakers in small and let the SVS do all the bottom end. This will give you max dynamic range and make your system.
You do not need a power amp for RTIA speakers. They are easy to drive and with the power of the ICE amps , it's simple.
Your 15x22 room is the perfect size for a SC-25.
I have Installed your exact system except the SVS( I have used Martin Logan and Polk DSP subs with that speaker package) and powered them with a smaller vsx21thx with ease. The SC models have so much more dynamic range over the vsx models.
i don't care for the Denon products. There amps are weak and have little to no dynamic range. It's a shame as Denon makes wonderfully loaded receivers with everything most anyone could ever want in a AV receiver.
I'm also not a fan of H/K receivers. I don't like there feature sets or the way they control. There remotes are the worse but I always use a universal remote with my systems so that point only applies to whom would use the factory remote.
Sound quality wise they are nice and seem to have good solid dynamic's. Dynamic's in the most important thing to me for a theater AVR before anything else. If that passes my test then I go deeper.
Actually Onkyo is a well rounded solid performing AVR in the upper models. They have tons of custom abilities and control perfectly. Sound quality wise they tend to be slightly on the "bright" side for my liking but nothing a good tuning can't cure.
Sorry I can't comment on the Online only Emotiva line. I would like to get my hands and ears on a system from them and test the hell out of it.
If you had hard to drive speakers and a large room ,I would suggest external power amps but your setup will be fine without one if you choose your next AVR carefully.

larry777

Thanks everyone for all the Great Replys. All these comments give me something to think about thats for sure. The Pioneer Ice Amps seem to be recommended a lot, so I will have to put more thought into a better AVR to start. I understand these Pioneer Ice Amps are Dynamic but would they be too " Bright " with the Polk speakers ? ( Thats why H/K was an option ) From reviews they do put out their rated power though, which is a big plus. I actually thought about these AVR's seriously before I started to put some thought into a seperate Power Amplifier. Please keep the comments comming if possible as this is the type of info I need.....before I do anything. X-Mas and just after will likely be a good time to buy....with reduced prices.

cfrizz

Welcome Larry.

You have the right idea, get the best receiver that has all the bells and whistles that you want it to have. If you are worried about brightness, then get a Denon since you are going to be getting an amp. Denon, do have a warmer sound. I had a 3802 for several years that sounded great, but my speakers sounded even better when I added a seperate amp to the mix.

One is for sale here in the flea market. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108098 It doesn't have all the latest bells and whistles though.

Then at some point add seperate amplification. The majority of receivers cannot drive speakers to their full potential which should be the whole point of powering them.

It's not just about volume that amps bring to the speakers, but better seperation of instruments, clarity, vocals & bass all benefit from a powerful amp that most of todays receivers just can't touch.

Good bang for the buck brand new amps are Emotiva, and Outlaw audio. Or if you want to go used, look on www.audiogon.com also for Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire, Nad, Adcom, B & K.

Get a 5 or 7 channel 200wpc amp which will take care of all of your power needs now and in the future through all other upgrades.

Do it once, do it right, sit back and enjoy.

larry777

Thanks for the additional comments cfrizz. It seems there is 2 schools of thought throughout these posts, which is actually good. Go with the Quality AVR only like the Pioneer Ice or something comparable, or the Quality AVR and an Amplifier as per my Initial post. Either way the Quality AVR seems to be the First move.....with an Amplifier being added later on if necessary using the Preouts from the Receiver. A lot of good Info received on Amp Options also.....including Makes and where to look for deals. All much appreciated. Thanks.

Toolfan66

Enjoy!!

Just do your Homework and you will save yourself lots of Money and frustrations..

disneyjoe7

A little story here, I gave some equipment to a friend a small amp and a pre amp. He had a cheap avr which we later found out colored the sound when passing anything through it. He was so unhappy with it he left it unpluged.

Story here, buy the best avr you can afford and don't look back.

Gadabout

Lots of AVR's out there and everyone has a different preference. Your right though that it is the place to start. Regardless of what you will do next.

First, find the brand that you like the sound from and has the processing features you want.

Then it's time to decide how much power to buy in the AVR. Basically there are 2 routes. Pay more for more power from the AVR or pay less for lower power and know that you want an amplifier soon. (You already know to buy a AVR with pre-outs.)

Personally I choose the later route. It's not for everyone. Other things to be considered might be rack space / rack shelf weight maximums and the all important WAF. That being said, I'm really happy just letting my Onkyo be a Pre / Pro and having amps drive the other speakers.

OH and before I forget, welcome to Club Polk

Scott

larry777

Thanks for your input Gadabout as it will be considered as well. By the way, your system displays look very good.

cnh

From your first post it seems like you are somewhat happy with the Denon's sound..Yes? I have to agree with cfrizz above and also with Dan (mantis) as well as others.

While I agree with Dan that 'recent' offerings by Denon are not what they used to be. The older models put out a warm sweet sound. Among the AVRs I've owned is an older 280X series (Japanese made) that made a very nice pre-amp (really came into its own with extra amplification. Having said that, I also agree that the Pioneer Elite ICE amps referred to above can put out some decent power. Certainly more than the Denon AVR 888.

Either way you'd be good. In other words, if features are not the most important thing..find a used Denon with pre-outs at least a 380x series. Or just buy the Pioneer--but do listen to it first because Dan likes very detailed and edgy highs from my reading of his posts--it's a subjective thing of course. I'm a laid back man myself, so I like the older Denons and HKs and Marantz sound among others.

Happy listening!

cnh

Sherardp

Denons are too laid back. Another vote for those IceAmps in the Pio receivers. Read Grimsters review, he came from a Denon to a Pio Elite and the difference was surreal. If you can find one, the SC-07 would even be a great receiver.

larry777

Thanks for your input cnh and Sherardp as the more overall feedback the easier it is to make a decision. I am aware that their are Bright and Warm sounding AVR's available which has to be considered since my Polk Speakers are on the Bright side. Especially if a power amp could be added at a later date. You confirm that the older Denons,H/K and Marantz are warm which is nice to know. The Pioneer Ice Amps will also be on my list which has been a strong recommendation also. It may be hard to hear those amps though befor I buy due to my location in Nova Scotia,Canada.

sm88

I'd go for a dedicated pre / pro, Onkyo's Integra line has some good options as does Anthem and Rotel. You can just use your receiver until you can get both the amp and the pre/pro.

Can do very well with your budget by buying a used set. What you would need to figure out are the features you need, decoding specifically; if your blu-ray player has analog 7.1 then you can get by without TrueHD / HDMI audio and purchase a higher quality but slightly older preamp.

Amps hold up to the ages better, so old can be gold if you get the right deal; they don't change as drastically as processors.

LuSh

I have found Pioneer and Yamaha higher end units to offer a powerful dynamic presentation I simply haven't found in any recent Denon units. Denon's in my mind have spent too much money on room correction licensing and not enough into good ole fashion grunt and dynamics.

In recent listening to the Pioneer ICE amp's I find them actually warmer or 'thicker' sounding then the Yamaha's which might suite your speakers better as some people have suggested. I find the Yamaha's to be slightly more neutral (yet warm) with quicker transients or dynamic envelope. One isn't better then the other, simply depends on what speakers you're using. If you like sheer power and effect steering the Yamaha might be the better option. If you like a richer sound then check out the Pioneer.

PrazVT

I think you're on the right track larry. I'm one of the few, it seems, that went the Denon route (3311ci). I'm glad I did because it's loaded with features and it has helped tame some of the brightness of my RTi A series speakers. But, I also added a Parasound amp for the main and an Onkyo amp for my center so that helped as well. The Denon is driving the surround speakers and they are by no means struggling. Overall SQ with my setup is awesome compared to what it was when I first bought the RTi A7s and had them hooked up to a Yamaha RX-V663 (bright).

Plus the Denon doesn't have any glitches, firmware updates are regular and everything just works. I'm sure I will give Pioneer a shot in the future, but some of the feedback I see here about Denon receivers seems a little subjective and based on older models.

Ultimately, just make sure whatever AVR you go with, does what you want Good luck!

LuSh

Hey PrazVT,

I'm happy you enjoy your Denon unit. I think it's a great option if you use a separate amplifier however...you will notice a DRAMATIC reduction in weight in Denon over the last two years. Not only when comparing older models to newer ones but them vs the rest of their competition.

Again, great option when used as a pre-pro but I have serious questions about whats going on inside with regards to PSU and CAP's.

txcoastal1

This is cheaper than dealer disribution price

http://www.camerakings.com/products/HomeTheater/AVReceivers/12090903/Elite_SC-35/

mdaudioguy

I LOVE my H/K with my RTi10s. Yamaha and Onkyo... not so much. I tried 'em both. Had Emotiva XPA amps, too. You can get a fantastic deal on a manufacturer-direct refurb from their e-Bay store. YMMV.