DD TrueHD and DTS MA

NeilGabriel

The other night was watching BR movie Heat and there just didn't seem to be any punch to the audio even in the explosion/gunfire scenes. I was listening in DD True HD through the OPPO BDP-83 analog out. When I switched to DD 5.1, there seemed to be far more punch and presence....now the volume did increase, but it seemed to be more than just volume. I was surprised that the True HD was playing through the digital output on OPPO as I thought it would only be carried on HDMI if it hadn't been decoded....does the undecoded optical still carry the 5.1?

my basic question was going to be whether I should even expect the new audio formats to always be better than the traditional DD and DTS?

BlueFox

Are you equating louder with better? If so then maybe the lossy formats might be better in some movies. Personally, I love the lossless formats. There is so much more detail in the sound, especially in the surround speakers. I am using the Oppo BD83 LPCM over HDMI to the AVR.

kuntasensei

Through the optical out, the TrueHD track will drop back to the core DD track. Through the analog outputs, it will output the full resolution of the TrueHD track, since the Oppo does the decoding of TrueHD and DTS-MA for the analog outs (or to output as LPCM via HDMI if your AVR can't accept the bitstream).

What you may be experiencing is that many receivers don't properly boost the LFE channel +10dB over the multichannel analog inputs. What kinda' receiver you using?

PrazVT

I watched the Heat blu-ray the night before last, and I thought the dialog was a bit low and I too had to turn the volume up / down a few times (esp during the bank robbery scene).

There is definitely some variance among movies - I actually went on bluray.com and looked at the review for Heat b/c I thought something was wrong w/ it. It just depends on the quality of master (assuming your setup is OK).

NeilGabriel

PrazVT wrote: »

I watched the Heat blu-ray the night before last, and I thought the dialog was a bit low and I too had to turn the volume up / down a few times (esp during the bank robbery scene).

There is definitely some variance among movies - I actually went on bluray.com and looked at the review for Heat b/c I thought something was wrong w/ it. It just depends on the quality of master (assuming your setup is OK).

that was exactly our experience with heat and I was fumbling around changin volume levels...

I was not equating louder with better....it seemed to me that the TrueHD was not just at a lower volume but not as rich as the DD....but maybe that was a function of this one movie...I have generally found the DD THD to be more detailed....

98Badger

I also think the issue has to do with the specific movie. In most cases, I find TrueHD or DTS Master to be a much more enjoyable listening experience over DD. To me, the sound just seems to be more enveloping and realistic. I haven't watched Heat on BR, so I can't comment on that one specifically.

kuntasensei

Again, what equipment are you using and how is it connected? Could be a setup issue. More information would help. It very well could be something simple.

mantis

kuntasensei wrote: »

Again, what equipment are you using and how is it connected? Could be a setup issue. More information would help. It very well could be something simple.

+1.

It's not setup properly from what you are saying. DD is not as clear or dynamic as Dolby True HD , you can hear a huge difference between the 2.

The outputs of the Oppo have to be calibrated as well as checking the setting on the receiver to see if it's a bypass or there is adjustment you can make.

jayman_1975

mantis wrote: »

+1.

It's not setup properly from what you are saying. DD is not as clear or dynamic as Dolby True HD , you can hear a huge difference between the 2.



I would have to say that this comment depends on the quality of gear you are using to play the lossy formats on. My AV9 does a smashing good job on the legacy formats and i have a hard time telling much difference from DD THD decoded from my Oppo vs DTS core decoded in my AV9

NeilGabriel

jayman_1975 wrote: »

mantis wrote: »

+1.

It's not setup properly from what you are saying. DD is not as clear or dynamic as Dolby True HD , you can hear a huge difference between the 2.



I would have to say that this comment depends on the quality of gear you are using to play the lossy formats on. My AV9 does a smashing good job on the legacy formats and i have a hard time telling much difference from DD THD decoded from my Oppo vs DTS core decoded in my AV9

A couple people have commented on quality of gear....first, my point wasn't whether True HD or DTS MA are any good...it is whether there will be times when the older formats for a given movie might sound better (e.g., my Panasonic 720p hi def tv looks better using s-video than hdmi....with my OPPO 980HD).

My equipment is the OPPO BDP-83, a Denon 5800 and CRS+ as fronts and CSi5 as center.....Montior 10's as rears....

cstmar01

mantis wrote: »

+1.

It's not setup properly from what you are saying. DD is not as clear or dynamic as Dolby True HD , you can hear a huge difference between the 2.

The outputs of the Oppo have to be calibrated as well as checking the setting on the receiver to see if it's a bypass or there is adjustment you can make.

Also Dan correct me if I'm wrong but when using the mutli channel inputs on the AVR's the speaker adjustments/setups sometimes need to be done through the player itself for distance etc as I think with the Pioneer's it won't allow any calibration done with the MCACC to be used in conjunction with them?

I could be wrong but for some reason I remember seeing/reading this somewhere. I use HDMI.

Otherwise I would think its going to be a set up issue. Anytime I've compared a Lossless track vs lossy there is a huge difference in SQ and I have yet to hear a lossy track sound better than the lossless IMO.

Also S video looking better than HDMI? I'm confused...

NeilGabriel

"Also S video looking better than HDMI? I'm confused..." how so? This is something I have compared many times and on the Panasonic Viera, the picture is more clear, especially blacks, than with the HDMI connection. Do I have something very backasswards?

PrazVT

Whether or not the audio track is lossly / lossless, not all blu-ray transfers have been awesome. So if this is an isolated event (ie just the one movie that you've noticed), it's not impossible that perhaps the lossless mix isn't all that great.

BlueFox

cstmar01 wrote: »

Otherwise I would think its going to be a set up issue. Anytime I've compared a Lossless track vs lossy there is a huge difference in SQ and I have yet to hear a lossy track sound better than the lossless IMO.

Yes. The BluRays I have that duplicate my DVDs are much better with lossless audio than the lossy audio on DVDs. How could they not be? For someone to say that lossy DVDs are equal to the lossless tracks is like saying an MP3 is as good as a CD track. Sorry, if it does sound as good then there is either a problem with the setup, gear, or your ears.

PrazVT

Well they should be better, assuming someone didn't F up the mix for the blu-ray release.

Anyway, this is all based on NeilGabriel's experience with a single movie. NeilGabriel - are you hearing similar quality issues with other blu-ray movies? If we're going to point to a setup issue, there should be some consistent issues occurring right.

kuntasensei

NeilGabriel wrote: »

My equipment is the OPPO BDP-83, a Denon 5800 and CRS+ as fronts and CSi5 as center.....Montior 10's as rears....

The 5800's a beast. Damn nice AVR! However, as cstmar01 was guessing, the multichannel analog ins are passed directly to the amp section... so make sure your speaker distance settings are correct in the Oppo (and make sure you have the speakers set to small on the Oppo so that bass management is done in the player).

Also, get yourself a SPL meter (~$35 at Radio Shack) and use the AIX disc that came with the Oppo to confirm that the LFE channel is properly matching the other channels. You can find these tones under the Calibration section of the AIX sampler disc.

cheddar

I think we still need to know how the OP set-up and calibrated his system before jumping to all these conclusions. It's probably something much simpler than differences between gear if the set-up wasn't calibrated or connected correctly.

For instance, as suggested earlier, players have separate set-ups for analog outs as the AVR is just forwarding whatever the player has electronically processed and dumped to its analog outs to the speakers. You need to go into the menus and calibrate the player's analog outs to match the similar calibration for the AVR or there will be a mismatch.

Also, as mentioned earlier, the AVR often plays the LFE input +10db on internally processed digital formats because it knows to compensate for the LFE channel being recorded -10db on the disk because of interconnect bandwidth constraints. Since the analog outs are just an analog dump of an already processed digital signal, many AVRs don't add the necessary +10db boost to the LFE. And the result is a thin and unpunchy sounding track.

Neil really needs to tell us if he's accounted for the above factors in his set-up before we go jumping to the conclusion that lossy tracks can sound obviously inferior to lossless on the same disk. So Neil, what calibration have you done with your system?

kuntasensei

NeilGabriel wrote: »

"Also S video looking better than HDMI? I'm confused..." how so? This is something I have compared many times and on the Panasonic Viera, the picture is more clear, especially blacks, than with the HDMI connection. Do I have something very backasswards?

S-Video uses a different level for black than HDMI typically does (7.5 IRE vs. 0 IRE). Your TV must be calibrated to match the source. Fortunately, your Oppo should have come with the Spears & Munsil disc that will let you properly calibrate the television to match the video level it is being sent.

Also, considering S-video doesn't carry a HD signal, using it for Blu-ray is a total waste. Sounds like you have something VERY bassackwards! What model Viera you using? Sounds like we need to walk you through a proper setup and calibration here!

cstmar01

calibrate. calibrate, calibrate. It will help you go a long long way.

It could be that the disc and mix suck, but if it happening more than once on several tracks I would think its the setup....also you should be getting a better picture with HDMI with proper set up then S video.

cheddar

I think it should be pointed out that it's very difficult to get everything set-up and calibrated properly. Otherwise, professional installers would be out of a job. So it's all part of the learning curve finding out a system wasn't calibrated properly and finding out how to do it yourself if need be.

The conflicting IRE black levels mentioned above are the result of some idiot standards person or persons making the call that US television black levels should be set at 7.5 IRE for black when international standards set TVs to 0 (which would seem to make the most sense) for black. And to add to the confusion, computer monitors use 0 IRE. So, all other things being set properly, if the picture has blacks awash with grey or grey shades collapsing into a dark black mess, then some piece of equipment in the chain is using the wrong black standard to process the picture. And this is just one setting you have to worry about when dialing in a HT set-up...

kuntasensei

Yeah, cheddar... I wasn't even gonna go into extended HDMI range, etc. yet. But I think we can help him out if he's willing to put in a little calibration time with his setup.

NeilGabriel

kuntasensei wrote: »

S-Video uses a different level for black than HDMI typically does (7.5 IRE vs. 0 IRE). Your TV must be calibrated to match the source. Fortunately, your Oppo should have come with the Spears & Munsil disc that will let you properly calibrate the television to match the video level it is being sent.

Also, considering S-video doesn't carry a HD signal, using it for Blu-ray is a total waste. Sounds like you have something VERY bassackwards! What model Viera you using? Sounds like we need to walk you through a proper setup and calibration here!

I don't use it for BR. And I misspoke, it was my Panasonic that does better with S-video than the OPPO even when I match the upconversion to the TV's native resolution using HDMI. Anyway, this is a side issue. I was using it suggest that a better technology does not always yield better results. I get what everyone is saying about lossless v. lossy formats.

This is not my first rodeo....third maybe. I really started with a simple question and it was largely based upon one movie, though the same question came up when watching a BR concert. In all other instances, I have found the lossless formats better.

I HAVE NOT calibrated the OPPO player...just the AVR. I will do that before the day is out...actually my AVR is now on the way to Indiana.

So that should do it.....thanks for the suggestions, seriously...did not think of doing any calibration with the BDP.