Bi Amping

KaosTsoc

Ok so I was reading some of my old posts, and see that I was talking about bi amping, and active. Did not go into too much detail, but kind of want to now. Three things 1) are the MM6501's bi ampable, 2) can some one please provide a diagram of how to bi amp, (I am more of a visiual learner sorry) 3) how do I go active, and could some one provide a diagram on this as well. I have been looking around, but can not seem to find a diagram that really explains it in a way that I can understand. I really dont car if it is hand done, or off a website. My reference point for now is using a 4 channel amp. I appreicate it.


Thanks.

KaosTsoc

Ok. Cool. Thanks. So, what happens to the manufacutre's crossover if they are able to be bi amped? Is there a wire I have to cut or something?

kawizx9r

There should be 2 sets of speaker terminal inputs on the crossover (as well as outputs), one for the tweeters alone and one for the mids if it is indeed bi-amp capable.

Edit: Was looking at your X-O's and it seems to only have a total of 6 (as opposed to 8) unless I'm blind

You'll see what I was talking about by looking at this pic. If you look closely, you'll see separate sets of ins/outs for both the woofer and tweeter (for the SR's)

KaosTsoc

Ok. I see what you are saying in regards to the 8 slots, but how would you make it bi amped. How would you hook that up. Using the SR xover as a referance. Would you bridge the tweets, and then the woofer so that two are on one??

Thanks.

kawizx9r

In order to bi-amp (in regards to the SR's), you would connect the front channels of your 4 channel amp to the speaker terminal inputs of the crossover (for let's say the tweeters only). You connect the rear channels of that amp into the speaker terminal inputs of your woofers. Thus, bi-amping!

The tweeters are being powered from channels different than the ones powering your woofers. Guess if you really wanted to, you can use 2 stereo amps and use an amp for the tweeters alone and one for the woofers alone....but I'm not sure how much power alone the tweeters would be able to handle :eek:

Since you can't bi-amp your MM's using the stock crossover, you should be able to do so with an active X-O.

Vital

There ya go.
Bored at work, quick drawing, cell phone pic and photobucket

Drawing is of bi-amp set-up.
Front channels of your 4channel amp "feed" tweeters, rear channels "feed" woofers.

Active set-up is basically the same exact thing but no x-overs in the picture. Well, you MUST have active x-overs but BEFORE signal reatches your amp unlike in bi-amp set-up.
It basically comes down to either a headunit with good x-over capabilities or an active x-over unit between h/u and your 4 channel amp.

KaosTsoc

Ah. I see. Thank guys that helps out a lot. Man it kind of sucks that I can not bi amp the MM's oh well. So, I would have to get an xover like the MS8?lets say for giggles.


Thanks.

Vital

Any active 3 or 4-way (even 2-way if your heaunit allows SUB x-over) will do.
MS8 is too much for my pocket but yes, it will do just fine. And much more lol.
There's a lot of good xovers out there, what's your budget? (in most cases the more $$$ u can spend the better unit u'll get haha)

KaosTsoc

Well I figure since I am redoing the entire system, door speakers, and subs, along with a new battery, and high output alt. I am looking at spending roughly around $3,200-$4,000 for everthing. Maybe a little more or less depending on how much everything is. This is my "three year project", but if I can do it sooner then so be it. I was planing on buying everything at once, but who am I kidding. I can do it peice, by peice, and when I have it all then install it. I am trying to do as much research as possible.



Thanks.

KaosTsoc

Ok. So now another question. Now using the drawing that vital so kindly posted for me. If I wanted to run more than one set of comps, could I still use a four channel amp, and use the back channels 3/4 for all four woofers, and the front two channels 1/2 for all four tweets? The reason I ask is, if I can save the time, and money by buying only one amp to power all four comps that would be good. Thoughts??



Thanks.

fouledout

You guys are talking about exactly what I'm researching on for my car stereo.

I have right now some MMc6500 in the front of my car that I know can be actively crossed over with the c400.4 I just picked up.

I also got some MM691's in the back.

Car is a Honda Civic coup, looking to get the best quality sound out of my system without paying for perceived quality vs. real quality.

My question to you guys is, would it be better to get another c400.4 so I can do the active crossover with the amp and dump all the passive crossovers. Is it worth it?

No sub yet, doing this little by little but am ready to install the amp and just wanted to see if the MM691's are bi-ampable and if it would be even worth it to run 2 c400.4's to these speakers or just keep it as 1 and keep the passive crossovers I got....

anyways thanks in advance! - Johnny

fouledout

KaosTsoc wrote: »

Ok. So now another question. Now using the drawing that vital so kindly posted for me. If I wanted to run more than one set of comps, could I still use a four channel amp, and use the back channels 3/4 for all four woofers, and the front two channels 1/2 for all four tweets? The reason I ask is, if I can save the time, and money by buying only one amp to power all four comps that would be good. Thoughts??



Thanks.

your 4 channel will be running only the 4 speakers up front. Your tweets and your woofers 2 on each side so you are going to be using all your channels for just your front speakers. Your gonna need another amp like I will if we are talking about the same thing. In short you don't have 2 speakers up front with a component system you have 4. Same with the back if they have separate inputs for your tweeters and woofers.

I'm a noob on this so correct me if I'm wrong guise.

KaosTsoc

Im pretty sure we are on the same topic. You know I was thinking that I might need two amps, but at the same time if I am going to have the same setting for both front, and back speakers, why would I not do just one amp to cover all that. No worries I am still pretty new to the whole comp system, but not so new to installing systems.

I have had two other systems befor. But now I am putting in the time, and money to do it correctly so that I can get SQ, and SPL. Alot of people call that SQL (although I dont think the term really exsists). I like to have both if I can acheive it. There will be some give and take of course, that is just the nature of the beast. You cant have you cake, and eat it to sometimes.

Thanks.

Vital

Do NOT use 1 4-channel amp to bi-amp 2 sets of component speakers. I'm not even gonna go into "WHY", just trust me, don't do it LOL. ESPECIALLY if u're goinf for SQ and SPL like u said u are. That will kill both and some...

I have MMC6500 bi-amped with PA500.4 and they sound amazing. They are great speakers to begin with but in regular 2-channel mode tweeters sounded way too loud to me (even with -6db on x-over) When u bi-amp them u can lower those higs and bring up mids and bass just the way u want them.

As for MMC690 - they are not bi-amp'able. x-over only has 2 input wires, not 4 like MMC6500 does.
In all honesty u really don't need 2 amps for 2 sets of speakers ESPECIALLY in coupe. You alread have great comps in the front. Bi-amp those badboys.
Instead of 6x9s (any 6x9s, not just mmc) get a nice sub powered by mono amp and u're all set.
With this set-up u'll get SQ and trust me when i say it MMC6500 get VEEERY loud, u really don't need speakers in the rear unless offcourse your main goal is to be hear 5 blocks down the road.

fouledout

Thanks Vital, for the record I have mm691s in the back right now not the mmc690s doubt it makes a difference.

The reason I ask is that the C400.4 I picked up says it can I can get rid of my passive subs and go straight from the active crossover bilt in.

My thinking was to buy another c400.4 to power the mm691s, I thought they had a passive crossover similar the the mmc6500s thus allowing me to fine tune the system strickly from the hu. Again just getting into this hobby seriously now and want to do this right the first time.

If they are not biampable the best idea for sound quality would be to dump the rears altogether and just bi amp the fronts and get a sub? Maybe its the newb in me but with the rears music sounds more dynamic to me? Is that retarded?

Or should I keep the rears and keep the passive crossovers using all four channels?

I will be adding a subwoofer and seperate mono amp just little by little cause I have a girlfriend. Suggestions for my cars subwoofer and amp with my system always welcomed Im trying to do this as cheaply and efficently as possible.

fouledout

i ll definetly disconnect the tweeters in the rears thanks for the advice dude! I would still need another amp to push the rears would another c400.4 do well with those and powering a sub? Or would I wanna go another route on that?

Edit:

Alpine CDA-117

fouledout

hell yeah ok then I'm gonna just bi amp the fronts and get ride of the rears when I do and invest in a proper sub and amp like you said and get that imprint software/hardware, any recommendations on which one to get, I just did a google search and there are a couple at different price points, the imprint devices. I'm ready to get into this ****!

JoshParsons84

DSkip wrote: »

I'd definitely run with Alpine amps though, especially the new PDX line.

+1 on the PDX my 100.4 and 1000.1 are out of this world amazing!! Highly recommended actually would like to have the new F6 and M12 - especially with the remote bass boost now out for the M12...I just love my Alpine!

kawizx9r

Not to derail but is the PDX-M series really that much better than the regular PDX?

It's in my budget to get one but the JL Audio slash series has more control over the sub IE x-o/slope/etc.

JoshParsons84

Dunno much about JL other than they have hard hitting subs but I know from 2 years with my PDX that they're unbelievable. RF prolly has the bestr mono amps but I'm telling ya Alpine PDX are my pick for mids/highs amps. They're really awesome

Vital

DSkip wrote: »

Vital and Kaos: As long as the amp can handle the Ohm-load created, then where is the issue? If you decide to go with the MM components (which are 3.3 ohm speakers iirc), then you probably won't be able to use 1 amp because the ohm load will be too low or the power provided will be too low to really showcase the speakers. If you decided to go with 4 ohm speakers, you might be able to get away with it rather efficiently by creating a 2 ohm load.

Its the same thing that is done with subs constantly. You would just make sure that all tweeters are on the front channels and all woofers are on the rear channels.

I never said it's impossible, i just do see the use in it.
let's say u do get 4-channel amp, 2 sets of comps and they are perfect match ohm-wise. Great. Not what??
Having the same gain/cut off points for tweeters in the rear and front?? There goes your SQ.
Having to install external x-overs/in-line filters between amp and speakers?? There goes your $$$ and most likely SQ
Having to fabricate the crap out of your front door panel to fit both sets in there?? There goes whole bunch of your $$$ and/or time to get it done.

Sure it can be done i just don't see a point of it in a daily driver that wants SQ.

kawizx9r

Vital wrote: »

Having the same gain/cut off points for tweeters in the rear and front?? There goes your SQ.

Good point, especially if the front and rears aren't the same exact model/maker.

Vital wrote: »

Having to fabricate the crap out of your front door panel to fit both sets in there?? There goes whole bunch of your $$$ and/or time to get it done.

Sure it can be done i just don't see a point of it in a daily driver that wants SQ.

Not sure where this comes into play though in this thread unless I missed it. He's putting more than just one set of components per door? :eek:

KaosTsoc

Well. The one thing that I did not put in here was I have a truck... a tacoma access cab. So, if I did do two sets of comps I would put one set in the front doors, and the the other set in the back doors. However when i listened to Dskips set up it sounded really nice, well balanced, and over all what I was looking for. At the same time I am a little of what Dskip calls a bass head, but not that big of a bass head. I just like a little more kick if you will. I plan on doing just one set for now, but was just wondering if it could be done. I just hope I was explaining it correctly. If not here I go. Dont mean to beat a dead horse, but just want to make sure Im clear for everyone.

Basically what I am saying is take all four of the positives of lets say the woofers, and put them into the positive terminal, then take all four of the negatives, and put them into the negative terminal. Then repeat for the tweets. If I am not mistaken I think that is called bridgeing.??.. At any rate I mean current is current correct?? I'm just trying to understand this the best I can so that when this all get put in I will do it correctly.


Thanks.

kawizx9r

Connecting more than one speaker to a single channel will create a different load which may or may not be safe (depending on the amplifier).

However, Vital made a good point about having both front+rear woofers connected to the same channel. I would expect a loss of SQ.

KaosTsoc

Ah. Ok I see. That is a good point. That also would not be good to lose the SQ, since with my current set up. I dont have the highs like I want. All good points thanks. Man this is harder than what I was wanting. However it will save me some money to just do two, and I might not have to get a real big alternator to keep up with the demand. So, moving on if ok..?? Lets say i keep my current HU CZ500 how would I hook up an external crossover, like the MS 8. Well... maybe not that, but something that would help me out with tuning, and cut offs? I may change the HU to something that has TA, but since I have a truck, would I even need that? I mean the cab is not that big, and the subs will take up the back seat completely.


Thanks.

KaosTsoc

Thats what I was thinking. However I am so used to having them that I can tell a difference AT the moment.... I am sure once it is all put together it will be just fine. I have faith that it will. But I figure I would ask in the event that I do go that route. I figured that I could do it, but would it be practical or even needed??? So, doing two up front, I can get rid of the xover, and get an external processor, and put them straight on the amp if I go active correct??


Oh. another question I was going to ask any way. For the subs in the back. I want to go with two SR 12's. My question is could I do one box ported, and one sealed? Would I have cancellation issues, is there an advantage with this. I am looking at it from a SQ, and SPL mix stand point.



Thanks.

Vital

If u don't mind MS8 price i'm sure u wount mind getting another set of woofers in the front to have a full active 4-way system:
sub
midbass
midrange
highs

That will give u the best SQ u can get within reasonable budget. Having sm8 or something similar is a must and will make me wanna drive YOUR car instead of mine lol.
U'll need to get a set of speaker pods to fit that addition (midbass-dedicated woofer) but i'm sure it's available for your car as everytime i search for one i always see them for trucks, barely ever for sedans. Another amp will be needed as well.

DO NOT get one sealed and one ported enclosures. It's either or but if u're after SQ sealed is what u need.
Also not for nothing SR12''s are very loud. even thou they are SQ subs as long as they are properly amped i don't think u'll want them louder. Especially if u're getting 2 of them. Sealed enclosure will get u SQ and a lot more spl's then u'd think.

Also, it'a not a fact or a strick guideline but a rule of a thumb is to have twice the wattage coming out of your subs then ALL the rest of speakers in your car combined. With that u'll get proper mid/bass ratio. Having 2 SRs at 700W each inside the cabin (not trunk like in sedans) will be loud as f#$k.

KaosTsoc

Ok. Good deal, thanks. I thought midrange, was the same as midbass? Whats the difference?? I am thinking of going with the MS 8 just for simplicty, but I may just go with a manuel crossover.


So, the question still remains, if I do one ported, and one sealed will they cancel each other out?? I understand what you are saying in that I should either or, but was just wondering if they would cancel each other out?

I have a sealed set up now, and like it, but also had them in ported as well, and kind of liked that boomy bass, but I am thinking that in the truck it would super loud, but also clear. So, if I go sealed, then I could safely get away with using a 1500 watt amp to power them both right??


Thanks.

Vital

midbass is somewhere in between bass and midrange - from 100Hz to 250, even 500Hz
Subs aren't supposed to produce frequencies above 100-120Hz and most fullrange speakers don't do too well in 100-250Hz area even if they are rated to go as low as 40-60-80Hz.

Besides that the lower the frequency the more power/wattage it needs to be "heard" - hence the reason 90% of speakers are up to 100W rms while 99% of subwoofers are above 100W rms. If u have 100W tweeters and 100W subs playing side by side those tweets will pierce your ears while sub will be literally silent (in comparission to tweets)

SOOOO.... having dedicated midbass will give you the ability to power it up so it blends in with the rest of your frequencies just like it should AND will take lots of stress off your midrange speakers (your comp's woofers) thus making them even better by playing frequencies they are very comfortable with - above 250-500Hz

I'm not exactly sure what u mean by "cancel each other out" when talking about sealed and ported but while u're looking for the best out of 2 worlds in reality u'll get the worst out of both. I'm not sure how to expain it THE RIGHT WAY using CORRECT TERMILONOGY but imagine those **** $20 speakers u had next to your monitor 10 years ago and some high end home audio system playing the same song at the same time right next to each other at the same volume. U'll get 2 completly different sounds which will be anything but SQ.
2 subs in ported will actually sound A LOT better then same subs in sealed and ported next to each other.

And yes, 1500rms will be just fine for 2 SRs

KaosTsoc

Well I am still new to whole tuning freq's and what not, so I am having a little trouble in understanding the midbass, and midrange. So the 6 1/2 woofers would be for midbass correct?? So would that mean that the tweets would pick up the midrange?? How would this work??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Oh and cancel out I mean that the sound waves or what not would cancel each other out. So instead of getting boom, you get more like a poof sound.


Thanks.

Vital

No, tweets are still sweets that play only highs
Your 6.5'' would play midrange STARTING from 250-500Hz
Your dedicated midbass speakers (they usually come in either 6.5'' or 8'' size) will play from 100-120Hz to 250-500Hz depending on what they are and how u tune them
Your 12'' sub will play up to 100-120Hz

Basically what u're doing with 4-way active set-up is getting a speaker that plays 100-500Hz instead of using your midrange to play it. Most midrange speakers are capable of playing these frequencies BUT having a dedicated woofer just for those same frequencies is a lot better as it will add to SQ if tuned right.