Did my tv or wall amp blow out???

digitalvideo

I was just watching a dvd on my bluray player on my 60" plasma and the tv just shut off, just like if I were to have pushed the power button. I don't know if my tv broke or the plasma and all it's energy blew the wall outlet amp out because the cable box connected to the same outlet doesn't work either or the light switch on the wall, but my bluray player still works which is plugged into a different wall outlet on the other wall. Any electricians or would be electricians or anyone knowledgable on electricity?

Polkersince85

You tripped a breaker in the main box. Unplug everything from the outlet and in the other rooms that circuit feeds. Then reset the breaker (the one with the red showing). Plug tv back in. You are overloading that circuit.

Outfitter03

Check to see if you through a circuit breaker. If the light switch is out next to it most likely you did.

Breaker will be in mid position. Unplug your items and reset the breaker by first pushing to off and then back on again. I would wait 2-3 minutes and if it stays shut your wiring should be good and slowly add items back onto circuit one at a time. If it trips immediately, leave it off and then you will need an electrician.

If all you are running on this ckt is a light, blue ray and plasma TV a 15 amp circuit should handle it just fine. If there are more loads on the breaker you may need to shuffle where you are plugging some of your items in.

digitalvideo

I'm running my plasma and HD Cable box off a 15 amp wall outlet. The tv is a 60" Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro 151FD plasma and it uses a lot of energy.

Last night after the tv lost power and shut off I went to the breaker box and flipped the power switch off and back on to the outlet that my tv is connected to and then I turned on my tv and it worked but the tv only stayed on for a few minutes and the power kicked off again and shut the tv off. I went back to the breaker box and did the same thing and turned the tv back on, but this time I went into the Pioneer's Options menu and activated the Energy Save mode to Mode 2 which uses the least amount of energy and the tv stayed on. I assume the tv puts a lot of stress on that 15 amp wall outlet.

I was told that it would be better if I added two 20 amp outlets and make sure they're both on the same phase and connect some of my equipment to each one. I was also told that a 20 amp outlet would handle more power but it could also send more power into the tv and also increase the odds of a more powerful surge that could damage the tv and other equipment as well, is this true?

I'll try the recommendations and steps above you guys posted. Thanks

mmadden28

The TV should come nowhere near the max a 15A circuit can deliver. Try to determine what else is on that circuit-If anything it may already be loaded with other demands and the TV might just be pushing the breaker over the edge.

Also try replacing the breaker itself (actually have an electrician do it if you are not comfortable with that idea)-The breaker could be bad. I've had a similar issue with my Pool filter tripping way too often--I replaced the breaker and haven't had an issue since.

On the subject of 15A vs 20A increasing the odds of a more powerful surge....that's rubbish. All it will do is increase the max current limit flowing through that circuit--a damaging surge will happen so fast and way before the breaker even has a chance to blink a eye.

What is a "wall outlet amp" or did you mean to refere to the circuit breaker?

mmadden28

From the Spec sheet/owners manual the TV requires "120 V AC, 60 Hz, 524 W (0.3 W
Standby)" so it requires no more than 4.5A and they always put the max ratings--generally they require less.

Also the following is from teh troubleshooting section:

Power suddenly turns off:
• Confirm that the Sleep Timer did not turn off your flat panel TV.
• Check the power control setting.
• See if the panel’s internal temperature has increased.
--Clean the vents or remove any blocking objects.

digitalvideo

During those power failures when possibly it tripped the breaker does it do any damage to the connected equipment when the power kicks off suddenly without me turning the power off? It is decreasing the life span of the equipment?

What is a "wall outlet amp" or did you mean to refere to the circuit breaker?

Yes, the outlet that my tv is plugged into is a 15 amp that is connected to the breaker box. I've had people confuse "amp" with a Sunfire or Emotiva amp instead of the breaker box amp, so I make sure to say wall outlet too.

TECHNOKID

digitalvideo wrote: »

I'm running my plasma and HD Cable box off a 15 amp wall outlet. The tv is a 60" Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro 151FD plasma and it uses a lot of energy.

Last night after the tv lost power and shut off I went to the breaker box and flipped the power switch off and back on to the outlet that my tv is connected to and then I turned on my tv and it worked but the tv only stayed on for a few minutes and the power kicked off again and shut the tv off. I went back to the breaker box and did the same thing and turned the tv back on, but this time I went into the Pioneer's Options menu and activated the Energy Save mode to Mode 2 which uses the least amount of energy and the tv stayed on. I assume the tv puts a lot of stress on that 15 amp wall outlet.

I was told that it would be better if I added two 20 amp outlets and make sure they're both on the same phase and connect some of my equipment to each one. I was also told that a 20 amp outlet would handle more power but it could also send more power into the tv and also increase the odds of a more powerful surge that could damage the tv and other equipment as well, is this true?
I'll try the recommendations and steps above you guys posted. Thanks

Like fuses, breakers are there to protect your equipment. Increasing the value of the breaker defeats that purpose.

digitalvideo wrote: »

During those power failures when possibly it tripped the breaker does it do any damage to the connected equipment when the power kicks off suddenly without me turning the power off? It is decreasing the life span of the equipment?


Yes, the outlet that my tv is plugged into is a 15 amp that is connected to the breaker box. I've had people confuse "amp" with a Sunfire or Emotiva amp instead of the breaker box amp, so I make sure to say wall outlet too.

After a power failure, power surges may damage your equipment however, if you have a good surge protector there shouldn't be any problem as the power surge protector should trip before any damage is done to your gear.

Unless you are using older amplifiers, there is NO reason for your breaker to trip and as mmadden28 has pointed out, either this circuit is overloaded or the life of that breaker has expired. IMHO, you should disconnect everything and test single piece of gear on that outlet and see if it pops off. Add gear slowly (one at the time) until the breaker does pop off. I would suggest splitting your gear to different outlets would also not be a bad idea.

Polkersince85

I seriously doubt that the TV outlet is the only thing on that circuit. You need to find out what else is using it.

A dedicated line would be your best option.

digitalvideo

I posted above how a wall light switch on another wall is also connected to the same 15 amp outlet behind my tv. That wall light switch powers the recessed lighting on the ceiling in one section of the room but the switch and lights were turned off when the tv lost power. After the tv lost power I went around the room turning on every switch and lamp and everything worked except that one wall switch that controls the recessed ceiling lighting.

So the 15 amp breaker powers the tv, cable box, recessed ceiling lighting. When the tv kicked off both the cable box and lighting were turned off. My bluray player which is connected to a different wall outlet on a different breaker stayed on.

Is that 15 amp breaker still powering everything connected to it even when they are turned off? The only thing that was powered on that 15 amp outlet when the power kicked off was the plasma tv.

Serendipity

Whatever you do, NEVER replace a 15A breaker with a 20A breaker.

Back in the day, before we bought the house, someone got fed up with a 15A breaker tripping all the time and replaced it with a 20A breaker. After we moved in we found this out. Very dangerous!

tonyb

There has to be something else on that line/breaker. Like a washer and dryer,a fridge, A/C unit,something with a big current draw. I have my plasma on a 15 amp breaker,along with the receiver,cable box,bdp,and ceiling lights,and an amp on top of it. When I had a monster power conditioner in the mix,even at loud volumes it never went over 9 amps.
Don't just pop a 20 amp breaker in,the wires in the wall need to be changed also or you risk a fire. Best thing to do right now is to try and split up between 2 different breakers.

mmadden28

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Like fuses, breakers are there to protect your equipment. Increasing the value of the breaker defeats that purpose.

Actually the breakers are there to protect the wiring in the walls, not the equipment. The breaker should trip before the wire melts.

A fuse or breaker in the actual equipment is there to protect the equipment and one would hope that would blow or trip long before the home circuit breaker has to. Replacing the fuse in the equipment with a higher rating would defeat the purpose, but not the home circuit breaker rating.

Breakers and the in-wall wiring can handle far more current than that of the rating of the breaker for short transients--a 15A breaker will not immediately trip just because of a transient or short term current exceeding 15A occurs--hence the reason MOVs, GFCI's and surge protectors exist. I don't know what the limits are but I recall they are many times what the circuit is rated. The 15A rating is a continuous current rating (~3 hours), (of course NEC sizing requirements are 80% of rated current, so a 15A breaker should only ever have 12.5A max of continuous current on the circuit). But sizing requirements aside, if I understand correctly and if I am interpreting the trip curves correctly, a typical 15A breaker can handle ~30A for ~10-30 secs before the breaker trips. I would expect whatever potential damage to the equipment to occur long before then even if the equipment had no fuse or an overrated fuse.

My point is a 15A breaker will still allow more than 20A to pass anyway, and equipment design should not rely on the rating of a house circuit breaker for protection from surges.

digitalvideo wrote: »

...During those power failures when possibly it tripped the breaker does it do any damage to the connected equipment when the power kicks off suddenly without me turning the power off? It is decreasing the life span of the equipment?

TECHNOKID wrote: »

...After a power failure, power surges may damage your equipment however, if you have a good surge protector there shouldn't be any problem as the power surge protector should trip before any damage is done to your gear....

A sudden power failure shouldn't damage your equipment any more than pulling the plug from the wall. And the lifespan of the equipment also should not be affected.

However...(and I realize this not the cause of your issue) power can fail for many reasons such as a storm taking out wires, or a car crashing into a utility pole, etc. Power can drop out suddenly, or waver a bit, fluctuating with a voltage that is too low, or even too high even before fully losing power if you lose it at all. This is usually witnessed when the lights dim or flicker before losing power (if at all).
In my area when the 'grid' detects an issue with a power outage (I'm not sure how this process actually happens but it's something I learned at PECO for fighting electrical fires or for protecting seemingly dead downed lines), the 'grid' will try to re-energize 3 times at a specific interval (5 minutes??) before finally 'giving up'. Each of those tries could result in a surge or perhaps only partial line voltage or current (like a brown-out).

Unless the equipment is sensitive to not having the full voltage it requires, the damage potential in a power outage, as TK stated, is usually caused when the power returns (or tries to return) to normal and of course having a good surge suppressor or UPS should significantly reduce the risk to any connected equipment. I don't think the act of resetting a tripped breaker will cause a surge like that you might see when power is restored by the power company. The reset breaker should behave essentially just like a wall switch. Personally I unplug all of my equipment when the house power goes out whether on a surge protector or not, esp in a storm since no end-use surge protector will protect from a direct lightning strike. I don't plug back in until the power is back on and steady for at least 10-15 minutes.

Now there are cases where some equipment can be damaged if simply powered off hard such as a gaming console or computer-not so much physical damage but where not properly exiting the game or doing a graceful shutdown may result in data corruption. Or with a projection TV or projector where a proper shutdown requires a fan to continue running giving the lamp a cool down period. If a lamp doesn't cool down it can fail prematurely. In these cases a UPS can be used to protect for that and a UPS can also take care of voltage sags as well.

An exception is with surge protection devices themselves--They are generally 'sacrifice' devices and will die first to save the connected equipment. Some can handle more 'deaths' than others, but generally a tripped and reset breaker shouldn't cause a surge and thus not take a life from the surge protection device.

digitalvideo wrote: »

...
Is that 15 amp breaker still powering everything connected to it even when they are turned off?

Unless the breaker in the main panel tripped, yes it is still 'live' and 'powering' everything else connected to that circuit.

Serendipity wrote: »

Whatever you do, NEVER replace a 15A breaker with a 20A breaker.

Back in the day, before we bought the house, someone got fed up with a 15A breaker tripping all the time and replaced it with a 20A breaker. After we moved in we found this out. Very dangerous!

+1
The breaker, the in wall wiring (gauge) and the outlet are a package deal--all part of the 'circuit'. However if the in-wall wiring is already 12/2 or greater, then a 20A breaker can be used in place of a 15A breaker, but because of cost my guess is you probably wouldn't find that too often. Best bet is to leave it to a qualified electrician to scope out what you have.

digitalvideo wrote: »

...
Yes, the outlet that my tv is plugged into is a 15 amp that is connected to the breaker box. I've had people confuse "amp" with a Sunfire or Emotiva amp instead of the breaker box amp, so I make sure to say wall outlet too.

Keep in mind that '15 amp' is the rating of the circuit, it's not a noun as you are using it here, hence the confusion. Adding 'outlet' or 'receptacle' completes the thought or 15 amp rated or 15 amp circuit, etc., it's all in the context of the usage but 'breaker box amp' just makes no sense. I'm not picking on you, just trying to clarify.

____

Another thing to keep in mind is that since the breaker generally trips based on heat build-up --once the circuit trips it may be prone to tripping again much sooner than the first trip event if the wiring and breaker haven't had a chance to cool down. Another factor to consider is the load on other nearby circuit breakers in the panel as well as the room the panel is located in. If the other breakers are generating a lot of heat or the room is hot, the breaker might trip sooner. It may also be possible that a breaker loses it's ability after so many 'trips' (trips too soon if at all).

Might any of that be an issue in your case??
Do you have an IR non contact thermometer? You could check the heat of the circuits in your panel specifically the problem breaker.
Try running a fan and pointing it at the panel to help cool it down and see if that lessens the issue.
Also get one of these Kill-a-watt EZ thingys. Plug your TV into it and it will tell you how much current it's drawing from the circuit--pay particular attention to the current draw when it trips. And as an added benefit you can see how much it costs you to use it and other devices in your house :cool:
Or you could just replace the suspect breaker and see if that fixes it quick and easy.

lightman1

Buncha over-thinking dingleberries. Sounds like a weak breaker to me. Just replace said breaker with the same amp rating and manufacturer, and nine times outta ten that will fix it. If it doesn't...PM me with a few more details.
Y'all posted some funny engineer thinking solutions.:rolleyes:

mmadden28

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day
Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime.

Just trying to help somebody understand something a little better. I'd appreciate it if you could correct us if any of us are stating something incorrect--I'm all about learning.

digitalvideo

Thanks for all the info...

I want to try the steps that were mentioned above about unplugging all the connected equipment and switching the breaker box switch off. Do I switch the breaker box switch off first and then unplug the equipment or unplug first? When it comes to plugging back in all the equipment, do I plug one piece of equipment in then turn on the power and then shut off the power and then plug in another piece of equipment and turn on the power or?

digitalvideo

Just some info about my breaker box, it's a Murray breaker box and a Murray breaker switch. It has a little blue square button on it that says: "TEST".

Breaker switch = Type - MP-AT AFCI. Interrupting rating - 10kA 120v. Max RMS - 50/60HZ.

lightman1

digitalvideo wrote: »

Just some info about my breaker box, it's a Murray breaker box and a Murray breaker switch. It has a little blue square button on it that says: "TEST".

Breaker switch = Type - MP-AT AFCI. Interrupting rating - 10kA 120v. Max RMS - 50/60HZ.

AAAHH HAAA!!!! The dreaded Arc Fault breaker. They will trip at the slightest wiggle in current fluctuations. Is there any way you can run a dedicated circuit(s) to the gear? That way you still have the code compliant general use branch circuits for everyday things and can have a non-arcfault breaker just for the gear...

grimmace19

I have the same type of breaker and it trips here and there when my amp powers up. Seems like there is little I can do about it but flip it back on and try again.

digitalvideo

lightman1 wrote: »

AAAHH HAAA!!!! The dreaded Arc Fault breaker. They will trip at the slightest wiggle in current fluctuations. Is there any way you can run a dedicated circuit(s) to the gear? That way you still have the code compliant general use branch circuits for everyday things and can have a non-arcfault breaker just for the gear...

I'm not a electrician, no one in my family is, we will have to contact a licensed certified electrician for this. Would it just be easier to replace the breaker with a different brand?

mmadden28

lightman1 wrote: »

AAAHH HAAA!!!! The dreaded Arc Fault breaker. They will trip at the slightest wiggle in current fluctuations. Is there any way you can run a dedicated circuit(s) to the gear? That way you still have the code compliant general use branch circuits for everyday things and can have a non-arcfault breaker just for the gear...

I was going to ask about a GFCI or other special breaker like that but I wouldn't expect a GFCI or AFCI in the living room. Aren't AFCI generally only used in bedrooms or are some local codes requiring them on all general use circuits?

mmadden28

digitalvideo wrote: »

I'm not a electrician, no one in my family is, we will have to contact a licensed certified electrician for this. Would it just be easier to replace the breaker with a different brand?

I'd get an electrician to run a dedicated 20A circuit for you--I don't know what the going rate is but a few years ago I had some wiring run for some ceiling fans and pd. about $150 ea. Even if you decide to just get a 15A circuit installed, at least have them run 12/2 so you can upgrade it later if you so desired.

Serendipity

mmadden28 wrote: »

I was going to ask about a GFCI or other special breaker like that but I wouldn't expect a GFCI or AFCI in the living room. Aren't AFCI generally only used in bedrooms or are some local codes requiring them on all general use circuits?

I have dedicated 20amp AFCI breakers on my H/T gear and they have never tripped even during huge current inrush sessions - like the sub amp clipping, or powering on my APC Smart-UPS 1500 with a fully drained battery.

Yes they can be used in living rooms, but they are REQUIRED in bedrooms.

digitalvideo

mmadden28 wrote: »

I'd get an electrician to run a dedicated 20A circuit for you--I don't know what the going rate is but a few years ago I had some wiring run for some ceiling fans and pd. about $150 ea. Even if you decide to just get a 15A circuit installed, at least have them run 12/2 so you can upgrade it later if you so desired.

hmmm I'm a little confussed, is this a contradiction to what Serendipity posted earlier on the thread?

Serendipity wrote:

Whatever you do, NEVER replace a 15A breaker with a 20A breaker.

Back in the day, before we bought the house, someone got fed up with a 15A breaker tripping all the time and replaced it with a 20A breaker. After we moved in we found this out. Very dangerous!

digitalvideo

I been doing a little studying of my breaker box and the wires. The 15amp breaker that keeps tripping is powering my Comcast HD cable, well that cable wire is also connected to a 4-way splitter that connects to other tv's and internet in multiple rooms, but the tv's upstairs that have Comcast too are powered by a different breaker but they're all connected to the same splitter.

mmadden28

digitalvideo wrote: »

I been doing a little studying of my breaker box and the wires. The 15amp breaker that keeps tripping is powering my Comcast HD cable, well that cable wire is also connected to a 4-way splitter that connects to other tv's and internet in multiple rooms, but the tv's upstairs that have Comcast too are powered by a different breaker but they're all connected to the same splitter.

The cable's video signal is not fed from the AC powering the box itself. Likewise splitting the Cable signal will not affect the current draw the cable box uses at all. I can't imagin the cable box is drawing that much AC anyway.

mmadden28

digitalvideo wrote: »

hmmm I'm a little confussed, is this a contradiction to what Serendipity posted earlier on the thread?

Serendipity wrote: »

Whatever you do, NEVER replace a 15A breaker with a 20A breaker.

Back in the day, before we bought the house, someone got fed up with a 15A breaker tripping all the time and replaced it with a 20A breaker. After we moved in we found this out. Very dangerous!

No. We're talking about a new dedicated circuit here, not replacing the existing breaker. If you need to replace the breaker on an existing 15A circuit--keep it a 15A breaker. Odds are the existing wiring is 14/2.

Putting a 20A breaker on existing wiring rated for a 15A circuit (14/2 which is 14 gauge/2 conductor+ground) is bad/not code compliant--doing so would allow more current and thus heat on the smaller gauge wire thus increasing the hazard potential.

It's OK to use a heavier gauge wire with a smaller value/rating breaker. The heavier wire will be able to handle more current and dissipate more heat--so it doesn't pose any additional hazard. But either way if your going to get an additional circuit installed I'd say go with a 20A circuit-(20A breaker, 20Amp outlet, 12/2 wiring). I was just mentioning it as a possible option.

Serendipity

Not a contradiction. If the existing wiring is 14/2, NEVER replace the 15A breaker with a 20A breaker. Very bad and extremely dangerous.

However, if an electrician runs a new circuit with 12/2 wire, then yes you can use a 20A breaker.

Also watch out for multiwire branch circuits - the ones with a red, black, and white sharing the common neutral. These MUST be wired with the red and black on opposite legs of the panel. Otherwise it's a fire hazard.

TECHNOKID

tonyb wrote: »

There has to be something else on that line/breaker. Like a washer and dryer,a fridge, A/C unit,something with a big current draw. I have my plasma on a 15 amp breaker,along with the receiver,cable box,bdp,and ceiling lights,and an amp on top of it. When I had a monster power conditioner in the mix,even at loud volumes it never went over 9 amps.
Don't just pop a 20 amp breaker in,the wires in the wall need to be changed also or you risk a fire. Best thing to do right now is to try and split up between 2 different breakers.

I'm not sure of the code in the US but in Canada, if not dedicated you can have up to 10 paralell connections (max) to the same breaker and as Tony mentions some equipment may draw a lot of current already and when you add up the total power draw of all the 10 connections it may simply be too much and the end result is breaker popping if some of the equipment is used simultaneously with your gear.

lightman1 wrote: »

Buncha over-thinking dingleberries. Sounds like a weak breaker to me. Just replace said breaker with the same amp rating and manufacturer, and nine times outta ten that will fix it. If it doesn't...PM me with a few more details.
Y'all posted some funny engineer thinking solutions.:rolleyes:

Where were you when the poor guy needed you? Get off the bush every once in a while

As I mentioned earlier,

either this circuit is overloaded or the life of that breaker has expired.

Serendipity wrote: »

Not a contradiction. If the existing wiring is 14/2, NEVER replace the 15A breaker with a 20A breaker. Very bad and extremely dangerous.

However, if an electrician runs a new circuit with 12/2 wire, then yes you can use a 20A breaker.

Also watch out for multiwire branch circuits - the ones with a red, black, and white sharing the common neutral. These MUST be wired with the red and black on opposite legs of the panel. Otherwise it's a fire hazard.

Again, not sure of the US code but here we use 14/3 or 12/3 not 14/2.

IMHO, as stated by many a dedicated AV circuit would solve your problem however, IMHO I still would stick with a 15 amps breaker. Again, maybe the US code is different but here everything that is light and typical AC outlet is 15 amps. 20 amps are only used by pairs for heating baseboards and such. Never ever seen home outlet with 20 amps rated breakers. As I pointed out, unless you are using older amps and such, today's gear will never draw near the 15 amps rating of your breaker. IMHO, using a 20 amp rated breaker for such is simply leaving a door open for potential safety hazard.

Serendipity

Here in the US the 14/2 refers to a #14 wire with hot, neutral, and ground conductors. A 12/2 cable includes a #12 hot, neutral, and ground also.

At most local hardware stores (Home Depot, Lowe's) you can buy 14/3 and 12/3, but that's used for 240V circuits which has four conductors.

I haven't seen a BX or Romex cable that was 12/2 or 14/2 without a ground.

TECHNOKID

Thanks Serendipity!