...Talk about a mircacle

kevhed72

Demiurge wrote: »

You're speaking from the belief that life on Earth is all there is. You're born and you die and everything in between is essentially meaningless. You're definitely not alone in the thought and maybe you're right that it comforts others to believe otherwise. Still, your seeming faith in nothing really isn't any more valid than another's faith in something bigger than themselves.

I'm not sure Bobman's outlook is exactly how you describe it, and I didn't get from his posts he definitely does NOT believe in a higher power. Many people believe there is a God, just that he is not active in people's lives on a daily basis. Heck, he may created the earth as an experiment, stepped back, and said, "OK, lets see how this turn's out...".

bobman1235

Demiurge wrote: »

You're speaking from the belief that life on Earth is all there is. You're born and you die and everything in between is essentially meaningless. You're definitely not alone in the thought and maybe you're right that it comforts others to believe otherwise. Still, your seeming faith in nothing really isn't any more valid than another's faith in something bigger than themselves.

It's kind of disingenuous to say I have a strong belief that there is nothing, especially since I've specifically said I don't know. I honestly believe that is the only reasonable way to approach this topic - there's no proof so you can't know.

If I had to lean one way or the other I'd probably lean towards "there's nothing" but I don't have strong beliefs on either side. I DO have strong beliefs about certain tenets of religion - such as the seemingly random assertions that God has stepped in and helped people who don't deserve it while letting others suffer, which is what started this conversation. I don't think that's an unreasonable stance.

And to go one step further, having a strong belief in "nothing" is, to me, a much more reasonable conclusion, based on what we see around us and know about the world, than that there is something. I don't say that to mock religion, but just to point out that if you were going to blindly assert that one thing is true, the one not involving magic and miracles is probably the one most people without a history of indoctrination would choose. I know most of you would prefer NOT to believe that, under the assertion that it makes life "meaningless", but just because something is convenient and comforting does NOT make it true.

Demiurge

kevhed72 wrote: »

I'm not sure Bobman's outlook is exactly how you describe it, and I didn't get from his posts he definitely does NOT believe in a higher power. Many people believe there is a God, just that he is not active in people's lives on a daily basis. Heck, he may created the earth as an experiment, stepped back, and said, "OK, lets see how this turn's out...".

That would make sense if this was our only interaction on the subject in the 6 years he's been here. He's insinuated numerous times on this forum he's not religious, even in the last couple of months. Religion is the belief and 'worship' of a God or God. The antithesis of that would be not believing or 'worshiping' a God or Gods.

While he hasn't denied the existence of a God or Gods that I know of, I am under the fair assumption he is NOT a believer.

If something's changed or I have been wrong all this time, great, but I'll wait for him to tell the story.

DarqueKnight

I think that everyone, including God, has the right to exercise free will.

Human beings have the right to choose to live in areas prone to earthquake, forest fire, flood and hurricanes.

God has the right to choose to intervene, or not, when things go wrong.

Do a lot of innocent people suffer due to the free will choices of others? Of course. Drunk driver victims, children of stupid, lazy, abusive parents and citizens living under brutal government regimes are a few examples of innocents suffering due to the wrong choices of others.

Does God have a responsibility or obligation to protect innocents from the abuses of others? I don't think so. Put into another perspective, does a wealthy parent have a responsibility or obligation to bail their drug addicted adult child out of jail when that child gets caught committing burglary? Of course not.

What about the sweet innocent children of that drug addicted child? Does the wealthy parent have a responsibility or obligation to step in take care of the neglected grandchildren? Nope. Some people would step in to "save" their grandchildren and take custody of them. Some people would let the chips fall where they may. They think that such "tough love" tactics teach a better lesson. Others, between the two extremes, would just let the authorities, the court system and child protective services, handle both the drug addict and the grandchildren, but would keep an eye on things and offer limited help. This seems to be what God does in most cases.

nooshinjohn

I see God every day. I see him in the actions of a four year old calling 911 to save their mommy. I see him in the soldier laying down his life to save the lives of his fellow troops. I see him in the kindness of an anonymous donor of a kidney or in a multitude of random acts of kindness I see throught my day. God is in each of us and it is by our actions that we share his grace. Man's footprint on the soil of the Moon would not have been possible WITHOUT God's hand guiding the spirits of men to push themselves to achieve their very best.

To deny that God exists is to deny that spark of potential greatness that resides in all of us.

bobman1235

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I see God every day. I see him in the actions of a four year old calling 911 to save their mommy. I see him in the soldier laying down his life to save the lives of his fellow troops. I see him in the kindness of an anonymous donor of a kidney or in a multitude of random acts of kindness I see throught my day. God is in each of us and it is by our actions that we share his grace. Man's footprint on the soil of the Moon would not have been possible WITHOUT God's hand guiding the spirits of men to push themselves to achieve their very best.

To deny that God exists is to deny that spark of potential greatness that resides in all of us.

See, it's posts like this that make me throw up my hands and just make snarky remarks about religion (my usual MO but I'm trying to be reasonable today) rather than trying to discuss it.

I guess this has gone on long enough anyway, it should have been closed (and me reprimanded) a while ago.

nooshinjohn

bobman1235 wrote: »

See, it's posts like this that make me throw up my hands and just make snarky remarks about religion (my usual MO but I'm trying to be reasonable today) rather than trying to discuss it.

I guess this has gone on long enough anyway, it should have been closed (and me reprimanded) a while ago.

I don't believe in religion either Bob... Religion is not needed to believe in a higher power, and based upon all the horrible things being done in the name of religion, I think He prefers it that way. :cool:

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

It's kind of disingenuous to say I have a strong belief that there is nothing, especially since I've specifically said I don't know. I honestly believe that is the only reasonable way to approach this topic - there's no proof so you can't know.

If I had to lean one way or the other I'd probably lean towards "there's nothing" but I don't have strong beliefs on either side. I DO have strong beliefs about certain tenets of religion - such as the seemingly random assertions that God has stepped in and helped people who don't deserve it while letting others suffer, which is what started this conversation. I don't think that's an unreasonable stance.

And to go one step further, having a strong belief in "nothing" is, to me, a much more reasonable conclusion, based on what we see around us and know about the world, than that there is something. I don't say that to mock religion, but just to point out that if you were going to blindly assert that one thing is true, the one not involving magic and miracles is probably the one most people without a history of indoctrination would choose. I know most of you would prefer NOT to believe that, under the assertion that it makes life "meaningless", but just because something is convenient and comforting does NOT make it true.

I think you're missing the entire point I'm making, hence my comment about your perspective. If you took the time to look at this from the point of view of those you disagree with you would not be saying half of the stuff you've been saying.

You've talked of the sweet and innocent doe-eyed boys and girls who have died of cancer and of the suicidal jerk off that lived. You suggest that if God truly played a role in our lives he would 'save' the cancer stricken children and the suicidal jerk off would die, right? God would make sure there weren't hurricanes that kill hundreds of people. God wouldn't allow tornadoes, earthquakes, etc....right?

That isn't how it works.

We all have free will to make choices for ourselves and those choices can affect others. What we do with our time on Earth is what matters, not how much time we get.

I'm not sitting here saying you're wrong, because I can't prove that just like I can't prove I'm right.

That's why its called faith.

bobman1235

Demiurge wrote: »

You've talked of the sweet and innocent doe-eyed boys and girls who have died of cancer and of the suicidal jerk off that lived. You suggest that if God truly played a role in our lives he would 'save' the cancer stricken children and the suicidal jerk off would die, right? God would make sure there weren't hurricanes that kill hundreds of people. God wouldn't allow tornadoes, earthquakes, etc....right?

That isn't how it works.

I'm only saying that IF you want to believe that God stepped in and saved this suicidal jumper (because of rosary beads, no less, which is how this all started), you have to then believe that he COULD HAVE saved other more deserving people. That's all. There are a million interpretations of God in the world, and one or many may be "right," but if your interpretation has God's hand reaching out to this particular person and snatching them from death, then THAT is something I can't agree with, even in an abstract sense.

If instead you believe in GOd but just believe this dumbass survived a 40-story fall by freak luck and accidents of physics, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I just don't liek the convenient "this guy survived cuz God saved him" juxtaposed with "this kid died because there's a plan". I hate that every time someone is saved from cancer it's a "miracle of God" (while the efforts of the doctors are ignored, or just waved off as the hand of God), but then all the subsequent people that die in the exact same situation aren't explained.

It's a perfect representation of "confirmation bias." The things that fit your theory are praised and noticed, the things that don't are ignored. All I ask is consistency.

nooshinjohn

bobman1235 wrote: »

I just don't liek the convenient "this guy survived cuz God saved him" juxtaposed with "this kid died because there's a plan". I hate that every time someone is saved from cancer it's a "miracle of God" (while the efforts of the doctors are ignored, or just waved off as the hand of God), but then all the subsequent people that die in the exact same situation aren't explained.

A good doctor trusts in their skill, but they believe in miracles.

bobman1235

Then, by your definition, please allow only bad doctors who believe in science and medicine to work on me.

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

I'm only saying that IF you want to believe that God stepped in and saved this suicidal jumper (because of rosary beads, no less, which is how this all started), you have to then believe that he COULD HAVE saved other more deserving people. That's all. There are a million interpretations of God in the world, and one or many may be "right," but if your interpretation has God's hand reaching out to this particular person and snatching them from death, then THAT is something I can't agree with, even in an abstract sense.

If instead you believe in GOd but just believe this dumbass survived a 40-story fall by freak luck and accidents of physics, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Even though my perspective is different than yours, I hear you loud and clear. I'm not arguing with your opinion. I'm trying to get you to look at it from a different perspective. Your responses are not considering the other perspectives about life, death and the hereafter.

Some people believe that when you die that there is an afterlife. To them, other than the physical time spent on Earth, a 7 year old dying isn't really any different to the deceased than if the deceased was 80. To the ones left here on Earth, there is certainly a different impact and much questioning and confusion. We question why an innocent kid suffers and dies in a horrible fashion while someone who has no desire to live fails at killing himself.

There are things that happen that can be explained and there are things that can't. Some believe that the inexplicable things are the work of God(s) and some believe they're just plain coincidence.

I'm not here claiming one belief is right and another belief is wrong. I'm just saying this is all about faith, whether your faith is in a God or Gods or in something else (?) or nothing. I've heard you express you don't know. There's nothing WRONG with that.

bobman1235 wrote: »

I just don't liek the convenient "this guy survived cuz God saved him" juxtaposed with "this kid died because there's a plan". I hate that every time someone is saved from cancer it's a "miracle of God" (while the efforts of the doctors are ignored, or just waved off as the hand of God), but then all the subsequent people that die in the exact same situation aren't explained.

It's a perfect representation of "confirmation bias." The things that fit your theory are praised and noticed, the things that don't are ignored. All I ask is consistency.

Your entire argument is predicated on your perspective of life and death, not that of anyone else. I'm not ignoring anything and I'm not being inconsistent because I fully recognize it can't all be explained. You might want to investigate within yourself why what others believe about life and death makes you so upset, though. Perhaps its because you can't explain it either.

tommyboy

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I see God every day. I see him in the actions of a four year old calling 911 to save their mommy. I see him in the soldier laying down his life to save the lives of his fellow troops. I see him in the kindness of an anonymous donor of a kidney or in a multitude of random acts of kindness I see throught my day. God is in each of us and it is by our actions that we share his grace. Man's footprint on the soil of the Moon would not have been possible WITHOUT God's hand guiding the spirits of men to push themselves to achieve their very best.

To deny that God exists is to deny that spark of potential greatness that resides in all of us.

This is a real touchy subject (which is reason why religion is a banned topic on the forum) but I do have to agree with bobman here. Why are you taking away the actions of these people? Why is God a part of everything good in this world (that is done by the people themselves) but lets millions of others die from something that he (by your logic) can control (disease, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, "ethnic cleansing", etc etc etc)

I was in catholic school (and an alterboy) till I was in 7th grade. And the only thing I got out of it that made any sense was that this is a test for us all.But if it ds a test, then he should have no influence on us while we are here.

Long story short, I also can't stand when people make these type of remarks that he saved someone from certain death. Its a way to bring religion where it doesn't need to be.

Demiurge

Trying to apply logic to God is pretty funny. If it was all logical there would be no need for faith. Logically we all die and that's it.

bobman1235

It's a good point Dave. My entire argument is based on the idea that our time on Earth is, at the very least, meaningful and significant.

Face

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

It's a good point Dave. My entire argument is based on the idea that our time on Earth is, at the very least, meaningful and significant.

I think it's significant if we do something to make it so, good or bad.

We're probably not all that far off anyway.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

tommyboy

Demiurge wrote: »

Trying to apply logic to God is pretty funny.

I couldn't disagree more. Everything we do in life should have some sort of logic including religion. Thinking of religion without logic is why we have had so many religious wars in the past and still goes on today. I know we both think Islamic extremists are completely nuts for what they do. But in their heads, they truely believe by sacrificing themselves, they will be praised by god (and lets not forget the 72 virgins;)). To us, that is completely illogical, but they throw logic right out the window.

Now I know i'm going to the extreme here from what we were talking about before, but I was trying to prove a point. Questions like "why did God put us here" should be thought about. Do I believer in God? yes but I don't think God has a part in everything we do..

Ok, thats enough religion talk for me. Good luck and good night

BIZILL

two things come to mind. SOMEONE'S gonna pay for my car. oh, and Alcides Moreno got this guy beat.

anyway, if you're gonna do the suicide thing, here's a note, don't do it in a place where you'll force tens to hundreds of people to see your brains splattered amongst the sidewalk.

cstmar01

Face wrote: »

ahh his noodley appendage touched me.

you know there has been an increase in pirates lately...stupid global warming...

Demiurge

tommyboy wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Everything we do in life should have some sort of logic including religion. Thinking of religion without logic is why we have had so many religious wars in the past and still goes on today. I know we both think Islamic extremists are completely nuts for what they do. But in their heads, they truely believe by sacrificing themselves, they will be praised by god (and lets not forget the 72 virgins;)). To us, that is completely illogical, but they throw logic right out the window.

Now I know i'm going to the extreme here from what we were talking about before, but I was trying to prove a point. Questions like "why did God put us here" should be thought about. Do I believer in God? yes but I don't think God has a part in everything we do..

Ok, thats enough religion talk for me. Good luck and good night

You're arguing the logic/illogic within organized religions.

Its amazing how such a clear one sentence statement could be misinterpreted.

BIZILL

bobman1235 wrote: »

It's a good point Dave. My entire argument is based on the idea that our time on Earth is, at the very least, meaningful and significant.

found myself lol'ing a few times in this thread. reading bob's comments and then reading my sig. not that i care if he believes or not, but just coincidental, to say the least.

tonyb

Do we really need to validify one's faith ? Be it in God,or anything else? I would subscribe to the idea of who cares what you believe in,as long as you do no harm to others. Over the coarse of history,more have died over religion than any other reason. Athiest have a saying,"..in the beginning,man created God." Sometimes I'm not so sure thats not too far from the truth. Take the bible itself, a collection of books,scriptures, from all over,some were put into the bible and some not. The idea being to get everyone believing in the same direction. Why ? History shows us that when you control one's faith,you can control the person. Look at the Muslims, no tolerence for none believers,and swift and cruel punishment awaits those who stray. Now you have a whole society of people of one faith,willing to do the bidding of it's leaders. Catholics were no different in the middle ages. Religion is a personal choice, a journey of truth,whatever that truth means to you individualy. For me anyway, once a religion is used to harm others,it no longer becomes a religion,but a tool.
God having a hand in saving this guys life ? How about just dumb luck ? Because if God did have something to do with it,I have a few issues with him when we meet.