New Power Amp for LSi9 speakers

LuSh · June 2003

I just bought LSi9 speaker's and I was looking for suggestions on electronics. Right now I'm using a NAD 320BEE intergrated amp. I want to use this as a pre-amp and buy a power amp. I have looked at the NAD C270 but the spec's look no more different then the intergrated im using right now aside from power. And while I do want more power, I want overrall better sound at lower and higher volume settings. I'm not sure if I'd be getting a better signal up the chain using a same spec Amp at a higher wattage.

Other brands I have considered are:

Classe
NAD silver Series (power and intergrated)
Rotel (1070 power amp)
Audio Refinement (YBA's little brother)
Arcam
Bryston (3B-ST used)
Blue Circle (C series)

that is my list to date. If anybody has any other suggestions I'd really like to hear it. I might take my LSi9's with me if I can't get home auditions. I suspect if I go with higher end gear like Bryston, Blue Circle or Audio Refinement, it will probably be on the used Market.

ps: If you asked me even a year ago if Polk Audio could make a product that could keep pace with Paradigm's Studio Reference series, PSB's Stratus series, B & W 602's or even Energy's Verita's I would have laughed in your face. My how times have changed. A truely performance driven speaker, offering great great value.

Frank Z · June 2003

Have you considered a pair of Outlaw Monoblocks?

STUFFMD · June 2003

Hey Lush..what kind of speaker wires are you using????? That NAD should drive the 9's easily..if I remember right these units have somthing like 300 watt peak @ 4 ohms.
I mean you like the sound you like...but just curious if you shopped for wire....might save some money in the long run...and be really surprised by the result....
And by the way welcome to the forum.
The Bryston amps are really sweet and worth a look into if you decide to go that route....
My 2 Stuff

mantis · June 2003

LuSh
Welcome to the forum.

As far as what to drive your Lsi's with,I would consider changing out the NAD and getting into Rotel.

I own Lsi myself and found Rotel to work very well.
Another you could add to your list would be B&K.There preamps and amps are smooth and clear.Powerfull and clean.Lsi is also a good match.

What are you using for wire??

The comments you made about polk comparing to others like B&W Energy and others is all a matter of opnion.The rt series competes very well with Energy,Paradigm,Boston Acoustics etc in there respected price class.

The downside of polk if you haven't noticed is where there sold.The rooms suck,the gear along with them suck and it's a mess to try to get a good honest clean demo......
Personally I almost bought Dynaudio Audience series over Lsi.It was a very tuff decision for me.It came down to the design of the surround speakers that led me back to polk.Dynaudio doesn't offer a di polar or bi polar speaker,only monos in the 42w's.

Polk needs to step back up to the plate with where they sell there products.Around here We as a company used to carry polk untill Tweeter bought us out.(we where Bryn Mawr Stereo and Video)

LuSh · June 2003

I'm using 10gauge Master Series AR cables right now. My NAD is a very small intergrated amp. It's rated at 50wpc and I know wattage/db by 3 factor. What I'm after is better midrange performance. Separates also offer me a way to get more out of my system down the road. I'm not sure if the NAD 270 will get a more enjoyable sound at the same listening volume as the NAD 320BEE. Both are almost identical in spec.

Frank: Hey, its paulBAW from the hometheaterforum. No I haven't thought about Outlaw, I can't demo them around here so I wouldn't take the chance. I've seen pic's of your setup though and it's quite nice. BTW, I love that Denon, now that's a DVD player.

STUFFMD: I've thought about Bryston for a long time. It's high quality but probably a very poor mate for the LSi's. I find my speakers to be very airy and open, perhaps warm. The brystons would probably all but kill that effect. I know of two people who loved the fact bryston's were built to last. But complained that they sounded robotic like. Very unforgiving. And eventually sold them for EAB and Blue Circle Stuff.

Mantis: I both agree and disagree with you. I personally hate the R and RTi line. I thought for years they sounded too forward. Like sound was coming from a box. People would tell me they were "warm" I thought they were muddy. LIke a beach towel had been thrown over them. Even hooked up on higher end eletronics. I finally stumbled upon LSI's and realized they could make speakers I felt could keep up with some Big Gun value driven company's.

I agree with you 100% that Polk really has to get their act together and push this product onto retailers that can demo them with the right gear. Auditioning $1000 bookshelve speakers on a $500 AV receiver and fisher price interconnects is a crime. WHy they let people belittle their company like this is beyond me. And believe me people do. When I mention Polk Audio to some people they laugh. Not because they have listened but because Polk is known as a Mickey Mouse company by many high enders. I can't think of one retailer that carries Electronics like Rotel, NAD, Bryston, Blue Circle, Audio Refinement, Classe and carries anything like Polk Audio LSi's either. And it's a shame, they could be selling these speakers, and Polk could really make a push to be taken seriously again. Untill that time, they wont be. And this is coming from an ower.

Frank Z · June 2003

Originally posted by LuSh
No I haven't thought about Outlaw, I can't demo them around here so I wouldn't take the chance.

I felt the same way about buying my 7100, but I'm glad I finaly bit the bullet and ordered it. Outlaw has a really great return policy, so don't worry too much about that end of the deal. I was very surprised at how good the Outlaw performs, even when compared to other more popular brands.
Check this out;
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10202

Alot of people knock the Outlaw because it's an Internet onl purchase, and you can't go to a store and listen to it. Moot point really, listening to anything in a store is not going to tell you how it will sound in your room, with your speakers, your music, and your furniture, your carpet, etc. at least with the Outlaw you will be able to see how it sounds in your environment. Sure there are some stores that will let you "Buy" a piece of equipment to audition for a couple of days, some will even let you just flat out borrow there stuff, but you, me, and everybody else knows that those stores are few and far between.

If you have your heart set on something other than Outlaw...COOL! Buy what you want, not what anybody else thinks you should get. I'm just thowing out another option for you to consider.

Best of luck with your upgrade!

organ · June 2003

Lush,
Welcome to the forum. From those amps you listed above, the Bryston will be the best IMO. The NAD and Rotel won't cost you as much and I think should provide the best bang for you buck. I own the NAD C270 and had it hooked up with the 9's until I got into tubes. I'm not farmiliar with your integrated but you mentioned that the one you own is 50wpc. The C270 is 125wpc. This extra power should give you less distortion in the mids, better bass and overall dynamcs. I love my C270 and will use it again after I get a pair of Klipsch for the tube amp. I'd like to have a 2ch system in another room one day using horns and tubes. I know mantis told you to take the NAD off the list and go with the Rotel but it's better to go listen to them first.

You may not actually need an amp. You didn't mention what other gear you own. What are you using as a source? If it's better mids you want, upgrading the source can give you a big improvement in that area.

Stuff,
Hey man, how's the C270? I remember your post about getting the amp but haven't seen you post anything about what you think of it.

Maurice

STUFFMD · June 2003

Hey Maurice,
Yeah i'm grooving hard on the C270. At first I was very disappointed in the unit.I didn't feel it was much of an improvement or change over my Oink. The interconnects I wanted finally showed up though, took about a month to get, were on back order and I am very pleased about the results now......I got a pair of Kimber Hero interconnects...and WOW what a huge difference...and surprisingly very much opened up and smoothed out the 800's..I will be writing a review soon on the whole experience....I'm titling it( Kimber Hero.....WOW). You'll see it soon.
Hey lush...Talk to Mantis ..tell him about the sound you are looking for...yes you need a lot more watts, but you will be surprised if you spend some time with cables...I personally love the Kimber 4tc's..and they match very well with NAD equipment....
Stuff

organ · June 2003

Stuff,
Glad to hear you're enjoying the new amp. Looks like there's quite a few members here really enjoying their Kimber Hero's. I'll have to check out Kimber when I find a dealer that carries them. Can't wait to read your review. I'd like to see if you got the same results as me with the RT and NAD combo.

Maurice

polkatese · June 2003

LuSh,
welcome to the forum! all the suggestions so far are right on the money, and I have nothing to add other than to let your LSi9 breaking in for at least 30 hours or so, before you do your critical listening, to decide whether you need a new amp. The reason I am saying that is because LSi9's sonic characteristics differ quite a bit after some burn in-time.

F1nut · June 2003

Lush,

Of your choices I would give serious consideration to the Bryston, but go with the 4B-ST mated to a conrad-johnson tube preamp. The Classe and Arcam are excellent choices also. As mentioned, don't overlook your wires, both IC's and speaker wire. Look at MIT, Transparent, Acoustic Zen and Audience. What source are you using?

LuSh · June 2003

I'm glad I use this forum now.

My source is a Sony SCD - CE775 sacd player. It uses burr brown DAC's. http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/digital-sources/sony-scd-775-sacd.html there's a review if you haven't heard of it. I do want to get a better upsource as well down the road. I was thinking I could get much more out of a seperate power amp in terms of difference in performance.

Any thought or suggestions are welcome. I've never had speakers of this calibre before. I've listened to plenty on other setups like Studio 40's, Veritas 2.1's, Stratus and even more upscale speakers like Totem Mani's. But owning speakers then trying to figure out what electronics could make the biggest difference is an entirely different thing.

begbie · June 2003

Originally posted by LuSh
I'm using 10gauge Master Series AR cables right now....

Lush,

Great speaker wire !

I own the same wire as well. Too bad there wasn't a biwire version eh?

How do you find them driving your Lsi's ??

pjdami · June 2003

Hey LuSH,

I really enjoyed your LSi 9 review over at HTF and now I'm glad to welcome you to Club Polk. You've come to the right place to find out the most about the Polk speakers you own and enjoy.

I own the NAD C270 amp and it is great bang for the buck. It has 340 watts power into 4 ohms for dynamic peaks. 180 watts / channel continuous. As my Rotel dealer said to me... this NAD amp has got some serious balls!! He carries NAD / Anthem / Rotel / Perreaux / Audio Refinement amongst others..

I will have a Rotel RB 1070 power amp via Audiogon by the end of the week and will use it on my Rotel RSX 1055 receiver (as a preamp). The RB 1070 has a higher damping factor (500 vs 150 for the C270) so it will be interesting for me to do a head to head demo of both in my house.

I think you have and are getting a lot of good ideas here. A ton of great people on this forum and some of them are some characters I'm telling you but its a fun place. The moderators aren't as strict over here and things aren't always as formal but I've got plenty of learn on over here.

Wires have made a huge difference for me on the LSi's. One has to experiment to find what works best. Lots of good ideas above.

You can get a NAD C270 online for about $420. I got my RB 1070 at Audiogon for $425. I listened to my Rotel receiver vs. the NAD receiver T762 and found the sound to be similarly very good but the bass attack was a little different. I'm trying to remember exactly but will know at the end of the week.

I think the C270 will be better than the 50 watts/channel you have now. I find the LSi to sound better and better at higher volumes where power is needed.

Good luck on your search...
Paul

LuSh · June 2003

All my interconnets are AR master series. I've considered going to Monster MKII's all around but im unsure. There was a Kimber Fire sale at a distribution center locally about 1month ago but I had to work both days it was being held.

I really don't have a budget at this point. I've talked to one person I've really respected over the years and he's told me to just sit back relax enjoy my speakers for now, and start to slowly audition a number of amps. If an amp (regardless of price) doesn't blow away my little intergrated, then keep saving my money regardless if I need it or not, and wait untill I HEAR something that does blow away the intergrated. Right now the room this stereo system is in is very small. Power is something for down the road, hence the want to go seperates and have some flexablity. But my concern for right now is better sound at the same modest levels I'm playing music at right now.

In terms of Cables, I know there are differences. I honestly couldn't hear a different between the stock 12gauge I use to have and the AR master series 10 gauge. Thus, part of me thinks cables are a total myth. Even though that person I respect alot uses Harmonic Technologies and swears they made some of the biggest impacts on his system.

The NAD C270 is something I will seriously consider, I know of a local dealer, and I could probably arrange to bring my LSi9's with me. He will have both the C270 and C320BEE intergrated there. And if he wants my business bad enough I'll ensure he allows me to A/B them.

My mid-bass right now is a little muddy. I know part of this is because I have them close to the wall. When I had them pulled out they sounded better, but right now I can't afford the everyday space. So i'll have to make ammends.

pjdami: Please post a detailed review when you get a chance. So many time's I've heard the arguement. NAD = Best bang for the Buck

Rotel = Slightly better, but not worth the extra dough. I haven't heard or auditioned any Rotel Stuff in years.

F1nut · June 2003

Ah, words of wisdom on wire by ATC. I agree, I agree!!!

Lush, your friends recommendation of Harmonic Technologies wire is a good one too, but do stay away from the Monster stuff. One of the fun and sometimes pain in the **** things about audio is everytime you upgrade one component you discover something else is now the weak link. When you've found your power and cables, upgrade that SACD player. You won't believe the difference.

pjdami · June 2003

LuSh,

I thought Organ did a really good job with his NAD C270 review a few months ago. Here's the thread:

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8552

As far as "best bang for the buck" I feel that when you consider the entry to mid level hi-fi equipment like NAD, Outlaw, Adcom, Rotel, and B&K you will find that the NAD line offers generous power supply (torodial transformer), nice warm amplification and slam for the money. I have no direct experience with Outlaw or Adcom so I can't comment on something I've never heard. But they definitely have their loyalty of followers and I respect that.

Sounds like you are doing strictly a two channel rig right?

If that is the case and you have no intentions of doing the Home Theater setup in the future then I would put the B&K PT5 / ST125.2 on your audition list. I really love my PT5 preamp. It has a lot of nice features such as a built in crossover if you ever decide to add a subwoofer to augment your LSi 9s. This feature is often only found in receivers. The crossover is fixed at 80 hz for the sub output. There are a set of high pass outputs at 80 hz and above and a set of full range outputs as well. I actually prefer the sound of my PT5 / NAD C270 over the Rotel receiver I have on the LSi but I must have Home Theater in my living room so the Rotel is a great "do-it-all" performer for me. Some may argue that B&K is a little more musical than Rotel or NAD but ultimately your ears must decide. I believe the PT5 / ST 125.2 can be had at around $1,500 retail (less on the internet) and if I were putting together a two channel rig with a sub option this would be the way on the top of my list to audition.

I also agree that taking your time is the way to go. Otherwise, if you subject yourself to impulse purchases it can leave you with a feeling of doubt and a lot of money lost. I have found that it unfortunately takes more than 30 days to really get acquainted with some equipment. Heck, that's right at the burn - in period sometimes if one only plays music for a few hours / day. Some dealers offer a six month upgrade deal in addition to the 30 day return policy so that would be something I would ask for too.

Here's a link to a review of the PT3 / ST2140 that I found informative:

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/bk_pt3_st2140.htm

All reviews one must take with a grain of salt. But its a starting point at least on what to audition. Besides, I've heard that the PT5 / ST125.2 combo is better than the PT3 / ST2140 combo.

Paul

mantis · June 2003

After reading more on this thead......

It's your wire Bro.........

I suggest you try the following in home demo if possible for a shootout.

Kimber Kable 8tc/8tc bi wires
Kimber Kable Hero Interconnects

Transparent Musicwave Bi wires
Transparent Music Link Interconnects

As far as avoiding Monster???Well at what you where looking at in the MKII's..yes please stay away,there no better then AR's.....if you want Monstercable performance,you going to have to use the following in your system

Monstercable M1.4s Bi wires
Monstercable M950i interconnects

For best performance use....(for monstercable anyway)

Monstercable M2.4s Bi wires
Monstercable M1000 interconnects

I have heard alot of other brands like Straight,Audio Quest,Cardos,Ixos and found Kimber and Transparent to sound that much better.Monster is a good cable company ,but if your looking for the absolute finest out of your system for music,I suggest Transparent or Kimber.....

Alot of guys in here didn't believe in better wire untill they sat and heard the difference.......I once didn't put any time into wire,now it's all I think about.

tryrrthg · June 2003

If you feel your midrange is muddy you may want to check out the Arcam A85 integrated amp. It's midrange is fantastic. Check out this review. The reviewer compares the Arcam to an older NAD 340 integrated amp, that may have sonic characteristics similar to yours. The Arcam sounds fantastic for the money!

just my .02

LuSh · June 2003

This is truely a wonderfull board lol...I had no idea. Thanks guys.

mantis: I just sent an email out to Denon Canada. They represent KimberKable in Canada. I asked for retail pricing on Hero and 8TC cables and dealer locations. I really would like to demo the cables. I hope most dealers let you try them for 10-30 days and offer a refund policy.

Last night after reading a number of reviews I couldn't help but thinking maybe if I simply upgraded my interconnects and wires and looked at maybe getting a better first contact sourse SACD/CD player, maybe thats the route to go.

My relative that I trust always brings up a theory he now lives by. He spent thousands of dollars always upgrading his amp's, speakers and pre's. Money was also spent on his first source CD/turntables but never to the same extent. Then he read an interesting article (I believe it was UHF) where a number of top reviewers from around the world were welcomed to sit down and listen to a hidden audio system. After several hours the group debated and talked about what they had heard. All agreed, the system was of reference calibre. Some concluded it was one of the best pure 2channel systems they had ever heard. It was then revealed to them that the system was a pair of PSB Alpha bookshelves ($200 CDN) a modest intergrated amp and a LINN CD25 CD player (retails for $11k) that made him reconsider his entire approach and he has since spent more of his resources on his first link.

So I think possibly based on what he and others in this forum have told me, maybe my short term goals should be to look into a better electronic source, then worry about applification when I move this system to a better room.

Any suggestions on a good sacd/cd player? I'm probably better off just buying a decent dedicated CD player. And leaving my sony.

F1nut · June 2003

Lush,

If you want to demo cables, all kinds, then check out this cable renting business. http://www.fatwyre.com/. They tell you how it works and all your options on their site. As Mantis finally got around to stating, there are much better choices than Monster. My fav at the moment is MIT Shotgun's, but I want to check out the Audience AU24 wires, which are getting great reviews.
You didn't say what price range for the SACD/CD player, but I highly recommend the Sony XA777ES, but you'll be hard pressed to find a new one because the new model, the XA9000ES comes out in October. You can find a used XA777ES on Audiogon for around $1750.00, they were $3000.00 new. The new one will be $3000.00 also. The XA777ES is Stereophile rated Class A+ and since the XA9000ES is about the same machine I'm sure it will be also. Another one worth looking into is the Marantz SA-14, priced about the same as the Sony ES. The CD layer on the Sony is reference level, the SACD is out of this world.

mantis · June 2003

Yes Sony ES

The XA777ES is one bad as mother effer........I love this player.It sounds like a reference transport and plays SACD's.

With it I would run KimberKable Hero Interconnects.

polkatese · June 2003

Dan, so which SFaber do you guys working on this week? how 'bout the REL? I love to hear those pair...

LuSh,
the triple 7 is definitely THE reference....add the Mod Wright tweak, then you will be in 7 heaven...

sorry for the quick HJ, now back to topic....

mantis · June 2003

Polkatese,
Grand Pianos in the livingroom for 2 channel.

Home theater was 4 Concertino's with a Solo center,Rel was a Strata III.
The Sonus Faber line is one killer line.I really like the Walls for surround and surround back.Smooth accurate and very pleasing to listen to for a long periods of time.

They could very well be my next speaker system down the road.......way down the road.

Gary Robertson · June 2003

Yes ,mantis is correct--My local high end audio store dropped polk beacuse they went too commercial---all the mass market chains sell polk now-hooked up to a $150.00 technics reciver is "NOT" gonna give you a fraction of the speakers potential.cCouldn't you imagine gong into a high end store and seeing Bowers and Wilkins and NHT amd Martin Logan and JM Lab and then right next t then stande a little polk that you saw at the lcal circuit city hooked up to a Sherwood reciver ha ha,,Anyway also don't forget to audition the ADCOM line of amplifiers--top notch amps designed by Nelson Pass..hioghly praised by stereophile and quite affordable..s

Gary Robertson · June 2003

Oh yeah, i you have the right amp and carefully selected cables--those polks can blow away a whole lot of the high end stuff literally..those LSI'S are just so damn beautiful..especially with a decent sub..

bikezappa · June 2003

Lush

Makes perfect sense to me that the source is the most critical element in the chain of equipment next to the CD that is playing. Bad CD and the music sucks. Good CD and cheap CD player and the music sucks. This principle is in life everywhere. The CD and the CD player are first order effects. All the other equipment elements massage this signal and are second order effects. I wish there was a high quality CD jukebox out there. I don't understand why no company has made one. If anyone has any suggestions for a high quality CD jukebox please let me know, because I hate the space the CD's take and love the convenience of 400 CD's in one machine.

Thanks for posting your friends advice regarding source equipment.

Peter

LuSh · June 2003

I was considering just getting a 5 disc CD player. Or perhaps I'll get a decent single disc player, then use both my SACD for CD's and my single disc for redbooks.

My budget couldn't come close to what it would take to get a 777ES even used.

Any suggestions for a player 400-500 mark? Perhaps a NAD 541? Or a used Rotel?

gidrah · June 2003

Maybe just an outboard DAC?

Loud & Clear · June 2003

For a little more you can find the Jolida JD-100A tube CD player. It may well be worth it to you if you have a large collection of standard CD's; VERY musical; built like a tank; move tubes in and out depending on preference. There are many fine players, and this is one of them.

pjdami · June 2003

LuSh,

Audio Advisor has the Myryad Z110 24-Bit CD Player at 1/2 original cost (currently $449).

You can get a used Rotel RCD 1070 for about $450 - $500.

The NAD C541i is a nice choice too. I prefered the Rotel but that's just me. I have the RCD 961.

I have read / heard good things about Cambridge Audio and AMC players as well.

Lot's of choices here.

Paul

New Power Amp for LSi9 speakers

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