Amp or Preamp for new speakers

SoundNooB

Hey everyone, I just purchased 1x CS2, 2x Monitor 70, and 2x Monitor 60's Running off an older Sony STR-K9900p. The speakers sound nice but I feel the Receiver isn't delivering enough juice, especially to those power hungry 70's. Do I need an amp or preamp? whats the difference? If it helps, my receiver is connected to my PC's soundcard via Optical.

SoundNooB

I found some Specs on my receiver in case anyone is wondering.

Receiver:
Dolby® Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic® IIx, DTS-ES® & DTS Neo:6 processing
6-channel amplifier (140 watts x 6)
5.1-channel analog audio input for SACD
digital audio inputs: 2 optical and 1 coaxial
component video switching (2 in, 1 out)
2 audio and 4 audio/video inputs (including 1 front-panel)
30 AM/FM presets
16-7/8"W x 6-3/16"H x 13"D
warranty: 2 years

Outfitter03

If the Sony K-9900 does not have pre-outs, which I didn't see referenced in the manual, you will not be able to connect the 9900 AVR to an amplifier. So if you desire more power to the speakers, unfortunately you will need to purchase either a more powerful AVR or an AVR with outputs for an amplifier and a power amplifier.

There are lots of good suggestions in the electronics section of this forum.

mole'

i would save up and get another AVR that has Pre-outs. nice setup. i had the CS2 with monitor 70/50/40 and a PSWi225 sub.

cnh

Monitors are pretty efficient speakers...and can run IMO with no extra amplification off, let's say a 130 watt/channel Onkyo 805 which is what I run.

I'm not familiar with that Sony. But at 140 watts...is that an ES model...and if so WHAT DOES THE UNIT WEIGH! I'm curious....because this info would help tell us a bit more about the Sony's real surround power?

cnh

SoundNooB

If I had to take a guess, the unit weighs about 15-20 LBS, This is an Energy Star model if thats what you mean by ES? It also does say DTS 96/24 NEO: ES in front. I doubled checked and there are no pre outs =(. The unit originally came with a 6.1 set up for 6 ohms speakers. I also need to upgrade my sub because I'm using the 150watt sub that came along with that whole HTIB, I'm sure is doesn't compare to a polk 505.

Don't get me wrong, the speakers sound wonderful, but the Monitor 70's seem like they aren't shinning to full potential being that they are rated all the way up to 275 watts.

tonyb

Those units that came with a HTIB, are usually pretty week. Time for an upgrade in the receiver department my man.

SoundNooB

From what I see around, 140 watts per channel is quite high for a AVR. The only Onkyo that provides 140w Per channel costs over a thousand dollars.

TORI3

140 watts per channel sounds strong, but...

I've owned two different Sony receivers in the past that were pretty reliable. From what I remember, both the receivers were rated between 90 and 110 watts per channel. I upgraded to a HK that was only 60 watts per channel. To say the least, it seemed the HK delivered more power.

The differences could have been the placebo effect and a whole host of different variables...nonetheless, I still enjoy my HK in a modest two-channel.

I'm with everybody else on this one, I'd upgrade to an AVR with preouts or a preamp + amplifier (which will likely cost a lot more than just a receiver).

If you upgrade to an AVR, and you still don't think you have enough power, you can then add an amplifier through your AVR's preouts. I'm sure I'll get shot for saying this generalization, but just to make it simple, your AVR will essentially act like a preamplifier when connected to an amplifier via preout.

If you don't mind refurbished Onkyo's, I'd check out accessories4less.

Good luck and nice setup!

Outfitter03

Watts sound like an accurate measure, but in the audio world it does not work out quite that way. Most, not all, but most of the AVR's are rated in Watts by the manufacturer and there are not regulations on how that testing is done. For a 6 channel system it may be a rating based on only two channels at one time and at a specific frequency such as 1000 hz. This is why cnh questioned your receiver weight. The weight is an indication of the size of the power supply transformer in the unit which correlates to the amount of current that can be output.

A hundred watt high current power amp such as the Adcom gfa545 mkii that I own is rated for 100 watts, but weighs 24 lbs. Some of that weight is a heavy case but the circuits are much simpler than an avr. No receiver, video processing etc, just an amplifier. Most of the weight is a large power supply for a lot of current output.

There are a lot of affordable used power amplifiers on the market and if you do some wise shopping, the cost of ownership if you choose to upgrade will be very low, maybe just what you paid for shipping. This is why the pre-outs are so nice as you can have a medium priced AVR and try various power amplifiers to push your speakers. A high current power amp rated over 200 watts will make those Monitor 70's sing!!!:):D:)

SoundNooB

Nice way of explaining it TORI3, I understand exactly what you are saying.

Outfitter, I should have known those numbers on the Sony were a big stretch.

The initial reason I started this thread is because of the performance of the 70's. When I listen to music, normally I set the AVR to MULTI ST. (audio coming from all 5.1 speakers) and for some reason, my 60's in the rear are louder than my 70's up front, thus my reason to believe the 70's are not getting enough power. I can set my AVR to 2 Channel and it will direct sound only to the 70's, but am I supposed to play my music only through 2 channels?

Also, Im using 16 guage speaker wire from Radioshack, if it helps.

Outfitter03

How you play music is another personal choice. Most existing music is recorded and optimized for two channel playback. There are some 5 channel SACD recordings available but you need to have a compatible player and the right cabling to take advantage of this format.

My personal preference is two channel for music but as a newbie to audio, with limited space and budget, I only have one rig right now. I have a feature on my AVR that is called pure direct by Yamaha, Denon and maybe others. When this is turned on the AVR bypasses a lot of processing circuitry within the AVR for a more direct signal for music playback. The monitor 70's sound really good with this mode. If you listen to a lot of music I would recommend looking for pure direct or HT bypass when you upgrade.

One CD I have that does sound better in 5 channel is Lady Gaga, Fame Monster. The system really rocks in surround with this CD.

cnoat

SoundNooB wrote: »

Hey everyone, I just purchased 1x CS2, 2x Monitor 70, and 2x Monitor 60's Running off an older Sony STR-K9900p. The speakers sound nice but I feel the Receiver isn't delivering enough juice, especially to those power hungry 70's. Do I need an amp or preamp? whats the difference? If it helps, my receiver is connected to my PC's soundcard via Optical.

An amp produces power.A pre amp does not.With a pre amp you need external amplication.

SoundNooB

I definitely will, I also new at this and I have not tried all the different possible connections, my Sony does support SACD but I do not have the cables for that. I used to use the 3.5 mm jack to analog (red/white) but I now have switched to an Optical cable.

I'm a fool, I just noticed my center and rears were set at +10, which explains why they were sounding louder than the 70's

Outfitter, what gauge wire are you using?

Outfitter03

I started with 10 gauge to my front three and 12 gauge to my surrounds. PM Sent.

SoundNooB

cnoat wrote: »

An amp produces power.A pre amp does not.With a pre amp you need external amplication.

Please teach me! What the hell does a preamp do? I looked up an AMP and from the looks of it, I can just buy an amp and not even bother with a AVR...

cnoat

SoundNooB wrote: »

Please teach me! What the hell does a preamp do? I looked up an AMP and from the looks of it, I can just buy an amp and not even bother with a AVR...

A pre takes the signal and distributes it to amplifier.

cnoat

You need something to send the signal.An avr does it all.Sends the incoming signal to the proper speakers and produces power.A pre amp just takes the signal and sends to the external amps and the external amplifiers send the signal to the speakers.
Hope this helps.

Steve

TORI3

The preamp and the receiver process the information/codecs (Like DTS HD Master Audio). With just an external amplifier, you won't be able to do the processing. To make an external amp work you'll need either a preamp or receiver with preouts.

The significant difference between the receiver and the preamp is that the receiver also has an amplifier within it -- the preamplifier does not have any internal amplification like the receiver (you would need to have an external amplifier to power your speakers with the preamp).

This is my understanding, but I'm sure more experienced members will chime in by either correcting me or adding additional information.

Hope this helps, and hope it made sense!!!

SoundNooB

So if an AVR does it all, what is the point of an AVR having hookups for a preamp? I would think you just need a AVR and an external amp, not a pre amp.

cnoat

Correct.An Avr with pre outs would be your pre amp.

cnoat

And welcome to CP.

TORI3

Right, you can have the following configurations:

Preamp + External Amp

or

Receiver + External Amp

or

Receiver


Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but those preamp hookups you're thinking of are actually preouts on the receiver. Those preouts make your receiver capable of adding an external amplifier.

If you have difficult speakers (like 6 or 4 ohm -- anything under 8 ohm), you would want to have an amplifier. For example, if you're trying to run some LSis on your Sony receiver...the sound quality would likely be "muddy." With an external amplifier, you'd be able to clear the sound up and feed them proper power.

SoundNooB

TORI3 wrote: »

Right, you can have the following configurations:

Preamp + External Amp

or

Receiver + External Amp

or

Receiver

This is exactly what I needed to understand LOL. Excellent, so now my search for a new AVR & amp begins... Wi.lll have to wait a while, my speaker set up put a dent in my spending money.

Much thanks to all helping me out!

halo71

^ Not to sway you or anything. But you just starting out with a limited knowledge, I would buy a nice AVR (receiver) for the time being. Get one with pre-outs so if and when you are ready you can add a external power amp into the mix.

The whole reason, to me anyways, for going the separates route. Is the options it affords you with trying out different preamps and power amps. Seeing which combinations you prefer. Right now I am running a separate preamp, power amp and dolby digital surround processor. Which with an AVR, all three of these are in one box so to speak.

cnoat

Well said halo71

SoundNooB

Thanks Halo, thats exactly what I'll do.

dvran

Onkyo 708 because it has pre-outs and it's a breeze to set up. Listen to the 708 by itself, and if you don't think the power is sufficient enough, then buy an amp.

cfrizz

TORI3 wrote: »

Right, you can have the following configurations:

Preamp + External Amp = Brain + Muscle

or

Receiver + External Amp = Brain/little muscle + BIG Muscle

or

Receiver = Brain/little Muscle


Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but those preamp hookups you're thinking of are actually preouts on the receiver. Those preouts make your receiver capable of adding an external amplifier.

If you have difficult speakers (like 6 or 4 ohm -- anything under 8 ohm), you would want to have an amplifier. For example, if you're trying to run some LSis on your Sony receiver...the sound quality would likely be "muddy." With an external amplifier, you'd be able to clear the sound up and feed them proper power.

Nice breakdown Tori.

Most of us start out with a receiver, then as we learn more & visit sites like this we expand to adding an amp then going to seperates etc.

Get a receiver that has all the bells & whistles that you want it to have, then add a 5 channel 200wpc @ 8ohms amp then sit back & enjoy.

This will ensure you have enough power to drive just about any speakers you have now & in the future.

I recommend a 5 channel to save some money in the long run. I started with a 2 channel, then got a monoblock for my center until I finally got my 5 channel in my system.

If you get a powerful 5 channel amp you won't have to think about changing out that component when you decide you want to upgrade something else since the amp can be used through all other upgrades.

SoundNooB

Great advice everyone, much appreciated. I certainly got the facts I needed.

Fantastic, another hobby to take over my wallet.

SoundNooB

While I'm at it I might aswell ask you guys, Since my AVR is a 6.1, Would it be OK/Safe to use my old Sony Center speaker (6ohms) as my Surround back, even though the rest of my speakers are 8 ohms?