I have a pair of rti12's and I need a good sub!!

bigreddog

Hi, I have a pair of Polk rti12 speakers and they are bi-amped on an Onkyo TX-NR807. The speakers sound great on the high end but even when set on full range I have to say, for all those woofers they have terrible bass. So, I bought an eD (Elemental Designs) A5-350 older style which I've have for a few years and its been junk since day 1. So then a built my own sub using a Dayton Titanic MkIII 15" + 500w BASH plate plate and it downfires and is rear vented but when cranked, the towers get louder than the sub and if I put too much gain into the sub it sounds awful with port noises. So, here is my question.... I love my Polk speakers but they are not good for bass. BUT is the Polk PSW505 a good sub or if I spend a little more is the Polk Micro Pro DSW2000 sealed sub better. Basically I use my system mainly for 2 channel music, all varieties, but I want bass that I can hear and feel. Should I get either of these two mentioned or I'm also looking into a Definitive Supercube III or II. I just don't want to waste my money. My room is 16x20 and it's in a corner. I just don't feel like messing with a ported or vented box after all my recent problems and i know the PSW505 is ported but it's Polk and according to the ad has no port noise due to enlarged roll off? PLEASE HELP!! THANKS!!

cnoat

the 505 is a good sub.I too have rti12's and the bass was very lacking.I was using an onkyo ds 898.Since I have gone the pre amp route and bi amped with a parasound 1500a for the low end and a parasound 1000a for the upper range I have great bass.IMO the avr has alot to do with it.

Toolfan66

The RTi12's do not lack in bass. it's what they are being powered with, it's not the speakers...

bigreddog

Actually its funny because i was running them on my Parasound HCA-1500 but couldn't bi-amp and so I bi-amped them on my Yamaha RX-V2700 networking receiver but since I've switched receivers. With my old eD 350 sub I could hear the plastic ports rattle as if it was blown not to mention a smoked plate amp. Then I built the box I did and its great until really cranked and it sounds awful. When I took them off my Parasound amp I never noticed a drop in my sound level or quality. The Onkyo TX-NR807 is basically the beast model. And every person I talked to before getting the rti12's said I would need a sub, including Polk Direct. So I'm not complaining that I need a sub, and I can afford the Polk Micro Pro 2000 or the Definitive Super cube but the Polk SWS505 seems to be such a good deal.......

quadzilla

I'm running my RTi12s bi-amped with Mackie 1400s, and I had to move them out from the wall to tone down the bass in a room of around 10-12K cubic ft. RTI12s also go to 18 Hz, and are -3b at 27. Most subs aren't going to go much lower.

domflane

The 807 isn't exactly their top of the line model, and every speaker, from little monitors to huge full range towers, will benefit greatly from seperate amplification. The 3 x 7" woofers in the RTi12's are going to take an awful lot of power to really start moving some air for bass you can "feel", but that doesn't mean that they're lacking in the bass department. That's not to say that a good sub wont do you some good. If you have the budget, look into Epik, SVS or the bigger Velodyne's for bass you can feel. Good luck,

Dominic

cnoat

Try and find a cheap pre amp just to see.I found an old adcom for 15.00 and with music I don't miss my sub at all.As a matter of fact I turn it off.I run an svs tv 12 which is a beast.Five finger death punch's the bleeding pounds my chest with out the sub.Try the pre you won't be disappointed.It makes a huge difference.

leroyjr1

quadzilla wrote: »

I'm running my RTi12s bi-amped with Mackie 1400s, and I had to move them out from the wall to tone down the bass in a room of around 10-12K cubic ft. RTI12s also go to 18 Hz, and are -3b at 27. Most subs aren't going to go much lower.

18hz? Doubt it, more like 30hz.

leroyjr1

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bigreddog wrote: »

Hi, I have a pair of Polk rti12 speakers and they are bi-amped on an Onkyo TX-NR807. The speakers sound great on the high end but even when set on full range I have to say, for all those woofers they have terrible bass. So, I bought an eD (Elemental Designs) A5-350 older style which I've have for a few years and its been junk since day 1. So then a built my own sub using a Dayton Titanic MkIII 15" + 500w BASH plate plate and it downfires and is rear vented but when cranked, the towers get louder than the sub and if I put too much gain into the sub it sounds awful with port noises. So, here is my question.... I love my Polk speakers but they are not good for bass. BUT is the Polk PSW505 a good sub or if I spend a little more is the Polk Micro Pro DSW2000 sealed sub better. Basically I use my system mainly for 2 channel music, all varieties, but I want bass that I can hear and feel. Should I get either of these two mentioned or I'm also looking into a Definitive Supercube III or II. I just don't want to waste my money. My room is 16x20 and it's in a corner. I just don't feel like messing with a ported or vented box after all my recent problems and i know the PSW505 is ported but it's Polk and according to the ad has no port noise due to enlarged roll off? PLEASE HELP!! THANKS!!

Check our Epiks new line. Dual drivers in a sealed box.

Toolfan66

Why spend the money on a sub?? thats just putting a band aid over the problem. Spend the money on a good reciever with preouts and a "good amp" or a preamp with a "good amp" your speakers will thank you and me later.. Then look at getting a good sub.

adding a Epik, SVS or the bigger Velodyne's for bass you can feel just don't make sense if your not going to power what you have..

Just my .02 cents..

Good luck in what you choose to do..

bigreddog

thanks for the two cents but I think I've done just what you said. You mentioned to go out and buy a "good" receiver first. Well my brand new Onkyo TX-NR807 is an $1100.00 receiver, not exactly a KLH best buy toy. Before that I was using a Yamaha RX-V2700 which was almost identical. These are bi-amped and set to 4 ohm impedance and they get loud and rock but the bass isn't even close. Now here is a question.....can I use my Parasound HCA-1500THX External Amp just to power the sub section and use the receiver's amps to power the highs? In all actuality Onkyo's wattage at 4 ohms is about what my external amp is and like I said I didn't notice much difference when I used it, but I can try again. Also, both the Yamaha's YPAO and Onkyo's Audessey calibration system picks up the rti12 speakers as "SMALL" therefore cutting the lower bass off. I can choose Full Range but should I? I think I've tried different spots between 40-80hz cutoff points. I guess I was just thinking, I have the good highs and mids, why not just sell my external amp and buy a nice powered sub for the lows?

tonyb

Why ??

Why did you buy big floor standers if your not going to use the lower part and ditch it off to a sub ? The 12's need current, not wattage,don't confuse the two. Your receiver,most receivers,don't have the current to push all those drivers. Thats why a seperate amp is needed,and yes,I would run them full range. Add a sub if you want, but let those 12's play down to the mid 30's with an amp. Of your choices,I'd probably pick the def tech,but like others have said,svs,velo, epik, all good choices. Sit in your listening position and manually adjust your avr, sometimes the automatic settings don't always work out.

mole'

i just picked up an Epik sub and it rocks.

leroyjr1

For music ditch the speakers and receiver. Get a nice amp/ pre amp and some musical speakers that dig a little deeper. No sub should be needed.

Ric5811

The problem is defo power. And maybe even room size or acoustics. Get a quality amp or maybe you just like unnatural bass. How long have you had them? I hate to say it, but no oinker, yammie or denon is going to power them adequately. Well maybe Denon's flagship.

dekuda

tonyb wrote: »

Why ??

Why did you buy big floor standers if your not going to use the lower part and ditch it off to a sub ? The 12's need current, not wattage,don't confuse the two. Your receiver,most receivers,don't have the current to push all those drivers. Thats why a seperate amp is needed,and yes,I would run them full range. Add a sub if you want, but let those 12's play down to the mid 30's with an amp. Of your choices,I'd probably pick the def tech,but like others have said,svs,velo, epik, all good choices. Sit in your listening position and manually adjust your avr, sometimes the automatic settings don't always work out.

Okay, let me give my 2 cents worth. I have a Parasound 1500A driving my RTi12's and I also had the PSW505 and now have two Omni s10 subs.The PSW505 is a good home theater sub for it's price. Before I had differant carver amps like the tf35x which is 250w/ch. My Parasound is over 200w/ch. I have the Rti12's set to small believe it or not and they sound better with the mids amd highs and better with the bass redirecting everything 80hz and below to my two subs. Get a sub and try it. Play some music with some bass and switch your setting for the RTi 12's from large to small and back and let your ears judge!. In my opinion it was clearly better setting them to small. In my mind I did not want to set them to small since these Polk's are monsters that go low. But let your ears be the final judge. I am telling you that even with better amplification the speakers bass will not sound as good as a good sub(or two) and setting these to small. The sub is there with it's own amp to produce the bass that these speakers cannot reproduce as well. And taking the load off the amp to produce that bass in the RTi12's makes the mids and highs in the 12's better. It took me two years to really find this out and believe it with my own ears.:eek:There is alot of good advise here on CP but in this hobby you need to experiment and find out for yourself. BTW,getting a separate amp to power these speakers is definately the way to go.Good luck!



Setup:

---

MARANTZ SR7002 AVR
Parasound HCA1500A Amp
Rotel RCC-1055 Cd Player
Pioneer BD320 Blue Ray
PNF Symphony Speaker Cables
PNF Icon IC
D H Labs IC
PS Audio xStream Power Cables
Samsung 52” LCD
Mains Polk RTi12’s
Center Polk CSi5
Surrounds Definitive Technology BP2X
Subs Mirage Omni S 10’s (2)

Don’t sweat the petty things!
Don’t pet sweaty things!

pearsall001

Your RT12's are fairly easy to drive at 8ohm & 90db sensitivity. Your AVR is more than capable of driving them...the problem is with the bass limitations of the speakers. Bear in mind that most advertised "full range" speakers aren't even close to being a true "full Range" speaker. Those that truly are are generally very large & $$$$$$. Adding an external amp would definetely drive them better but the limitations will still be there.

Now if you add a good sub (or two if you can swing it) it will add another whole dimension to your listening pleasure for both HT & two channel that you're not going to get even if you add an amp. Sub/subs take the load off the AVR/amp & free up the speakers from trying to dig deeper than they're capable of.

Here's a good article to read: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

quadzilla

leroyjr1 wrote: »

18hz? Doubt it, more like 30hz.

Yeah, no.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/rti12/

Overall Frequency Response 18Hz-27kHz

Sorry, -3b is 30. I was thinking 27. But they do go down to 18.

Toolfan66

"Funny" I have the RTiA9's the cousin of the RTi12's, and I can tell you with the right power there is no reason for a sub with music.. these speakers DO NOT LACK IN BASS..they will sit you back in your seat.. You have a fine receiver I,m not knocking that, get a sub if you want I,m not telling you not to but I can tell you your speakers are not being pushed to their potential.

A receiver will not give these speakers what they need to shine. I have the Pioneer SC-07 and yes is sounds good but with the right amp these speakers will shine..


Larry..

pearsall001

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

"Funny" I have the RTiA9's the cousin of the RTi12's, and I can tell you with the right power there is no reason for a sub with music.. these speakers DO NOT LACK IN BASS..they will sit you back in your seat.. You have a fine receiver I,m not knocking that, get a sub if you want I,m not telling you not to but I can tell you your speakers are not being pushed to their potential.

A receiver will not give these speakers what they need to shine. I have the Pioneer SC-07 and yes is sounds good but with the right amp these speakers will shine..


Larry..

There's plenty of good reasons for adding a sub for two channel regardless of your speakers. Have you ever added a good sub into the mix? With a good sub & the proper crossover settings the results are staggering. Your AVR/amp & speakers (and your ears) will thank me later.

Sherardp

Give them more power, 200-500wpc would work well for these. I have mine on an Iceamp 525 wpc. Love the RTi12s, but if your really craving a sub, go SVS Ultra or Plus line up.

treitz3

bigreddog wrote: »

thanks for the two cents but I think I've done just what you said.

If you are not getting chest pumping, pounding bass out of the RTi10's, then you are under powering them and you have not done what he has suggested. Those speakers do not lack in bass whatsoever when properly powered.

Toolfan66

pearsall001 wrote: »

There's plenty of good reasons for adding a sub for two channel regardless of your speakers. Have you ever added a good sub into the mix? With a good sub & the proper crossover settings the results are staggering. Your AVR/amp & speakers (and your ears) will thank me later.

I never said there is not a good reason to get a sub. What I'm saying is take care of the issue at hand and get the RTi12's working to their potential then get the SUB..

Then you can thank me later...;)

thejck

I used a Parasound HCA-3500 with my RTi12's. trust me they can go pretty low.. They might not be able to do everything a sub can but with proper amps you can get them to sing.

treitz3

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

What I'm saying is take care of the issue at hand...

Ed Zachary.

mdaudioguy

bigreddog wrote: »

These are bi-amped and set to 4 ohm impedance and they get loud and rock but the bass isn't even close.

I believe this thread has spiraled somewhat. The line I quoted above raised a red flag for me. These are 8ohm speakers. I think that running your AVR at 4ohms may be detrimental to performance. Set up properly (with an AVR in Direct mode - full range), the 12s should perform rather nicely, even at the low end. Of course, an amp could improve performance, but I suggest you re-evaluate your setup first.

cnoat

A good pre will solve the issue.I know I went through all the different ways with the avr.Just try it you can find a used one for cheap just to see.I will send you mine when I get a new one.An adcom 400gtp.Give me a week or two.And if you don't like it just karma it.

tonyb

dekuda wrote: »

Okay, let me give my 2 cents worth. I have a Parasound 1500A driving my RTi12's and I also had the PSW505 and now have two Omni s10 subs.The PSW505 is a good home theater sub for it's price. Before I had differant carver amps like the tf35x which is 250w/ch. My Parasound is over 200w/ch. I have the Rti12's set to small believe it or not and they sound better with the mids amd highs and better with the bass redirecting everything 80hz and below to my two subs. Get a sub and try it. Play some music with some bass and switch your setting for the RTi 12's from large to small and back and let your ears judge!. In my opinion it was clearly better setting them to small. In my mind I did not want to set them to small since these Polk's are monsters that go low. But let your ears be the final judge. I am telling you that even with better amplification the speakers bass will not sound as good as a good sub(or two) and setting these to small. The sub is there with it's own amp to produce the bass that these speakers cannot reproduce as well. And taking the load off the amp to produce that bass in the RTi12's makes the mids and highs in the 12's better. It took me two years to really find this out and believe it with my own ears.:eek:There is alot of good advise here on CP but in this hobby you need to experiment and find out for yourself. BTW,getting a separate amp to power these speakers is definately the way to go.Good luck!



You just made my point....you can get a monitor,or smaller speaker,add an amp and get great mid bass, why do you need a floor stander for mid bass ??
Waist of money imho,but hey,to each his own in this hobby. Take Phils system,AAD'S and dual velo's,why on earth would he get floorstanders with dual subs blowing out the low end ? Just my .02 anyway,I just don't see paying for something then not using it to it's full potential.

PrazVT

Though I ordered a PSW-505 the other day (for movies mostly), I'd like to continue to use my A7s for music w/o the sub. How much power (for lack of a more accurate term) is enough to drive the woofers on an RTi 10 / 12 / A7 / A9 alone - say we're bi-amping w/ discrete amps?

All I know is the specs say the A7s' power handling is 300wpc. I've got 125wpc (or something close to that realistically) going to the woofers/highs from the Denon and 105wpc going to the woofers from an Onkyo power amp. And for the most part, without touching any tone controls, bass is pretty good - but I have no idea if I'm driving them effectively. Do we all need to invest in these $1000 power amps to get the most out of the floor standers?

To the Op, though, the RTI12 has 3 7" woofers - I would think you should be getting a decent pounding from them alone - one way or another..

I will say I'm learning a lot here Too bad some of it is after I've spent money on things lol.

dekuda

Tonyb, if I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I would surround myself with LSI9's and run a good sub or two and I know I would be happy. But I started by buying my RTI12's at a great price used at $500.00 before I had a sub. Then I purchased subs after. You are right, it is somewhat of a waste but at the time I did not have a sub and these did okay with bass . When I got some subs I realized that these speakers could not produce the bass that a good sub(s) can. There is no way I am under powering these. they just can't produce bass as good as my two Omnis10 subs can.I learn as I go.:rolleyes: I question those who say that these can produce alot of bass. I thought that untill I compared them with a good sub and letting all the low frequency be handled by a sub.

leroyjr1

quadzilla wrote: »

Yeah, no.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/rti12/

Overall Frequency Response 18Hz-27kHz

Sorry, -3b is 30. I was thinking 27. But they do go down to 18.

try them at 18 hz and let me know what you hear.