Possible New Way To Measure Power Cord Performance

markmarc

Shunyata Research, makers of several power cords has developed measuring equipment with the help of a former Tetronix employee that can now show (according to them) the differences in cord performance.

The web page link discusses their initial work. In the future they promise a "white paper" regarding their research. Since the Polk forum is well-known to have a more open mind about the potential of improving sound thru cables, cords and interconnects I thought a respectful discussion might develop. Hopefully, Darque Knight will lend his expertise to the topic. Below are a couple of pics of the measurements. The Shunyata cable used in the graphs is their budget model, the Venom 3.

mhardy6647

EDIT - OK, let me look at the link first...

dorokusai

Uh that's Tektronix. Any cable can be swept with a measurement tool such as a Sitemaster or TDR. It's not new to me.

pearsall001

I'll still let my ears guide me.

98Badger

The graphs are meaningless. No scale on the time axis. Take a look at the current axis too. For standard house wiring, 15 or 20 amps will trip the breaker. Definately not real world conditions shown. I call shennanigans.

mmadden28

98Badger wrote: »

The graphs are meaningless. No scale on the time axis. Take a look at the current axis too. For standard house wiring, 15 or 20 amps will trip the breaker. Definately not real world conditions shown. I call shennanigans.

House current is not the only 'real world' ya know. Besides, Just because a house breaker has a rating of 15 or 20A doesn't mean that higher currents can't or won't flow through them without tripping. After all if that were true you wouldn't need a surge protector would you?
It should also be noted they said 'pulsed transient currents' not continuous.

I don't think the actual 'time' scale is all that relevant anyway since the max current and voltage drops are the main points. It does indicate µsecs.

I can't speak with an EE degree but it makes sense--Cable has resistance, and normally voltage drop is really an issue in long runs and thats with 120V as the baseline voltage. Flow 120V/11A across 100' of 14 gauge and you can get a 4-5% voltage drop (~5.7V). The more current the higher the drop. When talking about a high current transient--That Vdrop can be significant. For kicks and giggles I plugged into an online calculator a current of 200A, 120V, 100', 14 guage and it came up with an 86% VDrop, that's ~103V. If that won't suck the life out of music I don't know what does. Granted the measured power cords are much shorter so not as much cumulative resistance, thus the lower VDrop measurements. I dropped the length from 100' to 6' and the vDrop is calculated as a 5%+ drop at 6.2VDrop. With a 12 gauge cable (like the Venom3) it's 3.27% at 3.9VDrop.

Of course that's using typical house wiring as an example. But then again the capabilities of the Venom3, or its feature of not causing as much of a VDrop as a standard cord may or may not be true, but if you're using it with standard 15A rated 14 awg house wiring, it may not be able to show its true potential just because of that house wiring 'bottleneck'. Upgrade the house wiring to limit some of that VDrop potential, then you can take more advantage of the advances of the end point power cable whether its a special brand or not.

At least that's how my mind is thinking it through at this late hour--I have no idea what the normal µsec surge/current transients amperage levels are in a typical Home Theater or 2 channel setup, and I am not a meter guru, but I'm guessing that a meter that has the ability to generate high current trasient pulses and measure the results is what is new here. I don't think this is the same as TDR.

Some additional food for thought--The Venom3 is a 12awg cable, while most 'standard' PCs are 18awg. Did they mention the guage of the cords tested?

One additioal

BlueFox

In my experience, better cables (power, IC, speaker) have made a positive, noticible difference in sound quality. Assuming we even know what to measure in regard to cables, a current problem in the audio industry is there is no way to correlate measurement differences to sound differences in these areas. As we gain more knowledge, I expect in the future to see advertisements that cable 'X' will increase 'A', reduce'B', and eliminate 'C'. At that point we will be able to make meaningful comparisons between cables before we buy them, and have a good idea what we can expect; i.e. more 'A', less 'B', and no 'C' sounds better than the alternatives.

dkg999

I upgrade my power cables because they look cool. Who gives a crap about measurable performance. If they look uber-cool then they must be better.

reeltrouble1

dkg999 wrote: »

I upgrade my power cables because they look cool. Who gives a crap about measurable performance. If they look uber-cool then they must be better.

the two meter ones are especially nice for spanking someone in assless chaps.

marc is just trying to be helpful, cables matter. CP is one of few forums with entry level members who get exposed to the benefits of cable differences, always been that way.

I'd give the nimnit Russman the majority of the credit on this one and that Doro guy you see might of once had a little cable exchange thing going here.

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tonyb

pearsall001 wrote: »

I'll still let my ears guide me.

...and so will most of us Phil. The rest is marketing hype. Thats part of the experience of audio clubs anyway. To discern between the hype and the real world applications.

jinjuku

The graphs are not fully labeled. The don't tell you the make up of the generic power cord. They don't disclose the voltage source (a re-generator, $7 breaker on a populated 150amp panel with 45' of 12AWG contractor Romex, a large **** bank of batteries etc...). They don't tell you what problem they are actually solving. I'm fine for measurements and all but I would like to know what solvable problem they have as a target.

Not sure if amps of any vintage would ever draw several hundred amps at even µseconds periods. They might. They might not. Does it matter if the PC's are driving something like a pre-amp?

Both graphs are missing valid X Axis labels, The Y axes on the voltage graph is missing absolute voltage so there is no sense of scale. Did the breaker trip (assuming there was one in circuit) on both the generic PC and Shunyata PC at their peak? What happened when that peak was reached (really curious about that one).

JNuetron at AVS/AH makes some interesting observations that it isn't about getting power to the amp. It's about noise induction via minimized ground bounce.

Anyone know when the white paper will be released? It may clean up a lot of what is missing.

Face

Let's keep this clean please.

reeltrouble1

Same oh same oh its like being stuck in a eternal echo chamber.

So the light from the sun cannot be manipulated due to the original medium it traveled
Through

I do recommend Shunyata products.

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treitz3

I recommend staying away from this thread. The usual dribble from the naysayers will only lead into the experienced talking to a Bose system stuck on repeat. Why bother?

mhardy6647

treitz3 wrote: »

I recommend staying away from this thread. The usual dribble from the naysayers will only lead into the experienced talking to a Bose system stuck on repeat. Why bother?

I am taking that advice.

Toolfan66

If they don't make a difference then my ears are lying to me.. Oh well they look cool!!

FTGV

Isn't the most important measurable parameter the length?:p:D

mmadden28

jinjuku wrote: »

...They don't tell you what problem they are actually solving. I'm fine for measurements and all but I would like to know what solvable problem they have as a target.
...

The measurements represent three critical performance criteria:

The quantity of instantaneous current available through a specified power device or circuit. Measured in amperes.

The amount of voltage drop across the device during the conduction period.

The stored residual noise component rate of dissipation after the current conduction period.

I used the 100' 14awg house wiring as an example because it was a problem I had--My HT outlet was 100' from the main panel. And it was sharing a circuit with lots of other things like ceiling fans, lights, etc. I replaced the 14awg with 10awg, and it made IMHO, a significant difference in how my overall HT functions. From my lights no longer dimming when my system turns on, to the better sound that is coming from my system, esp during heavy audio scenes, esp those with transient demands (such as Master and Commander-canon attack scenes). My V and I measurements prove to me that the new cable made a difference and reduced if not eliminated my measurable VDrop issue if nothing else. So the first 2 bullets are a parallel here for me.


Aside from any other possible benefits of upgrading a power cord, just upgrading simply with a thicker gauge wire, should yield some improvement in the area of resistance and VDrop, mainly when used on a high current device-at least if there are not other bottle necks in the loop. On a low current device I think the shielding/RFI/noise reducing characteristics would be more important there as I wouldn't expect the current or VDrop to be a issue.

I don't think what they are showing is groundbreaking, but simple marketing on an already known concept in the electrical world, just now with a meter that can measure it. If a potential buyer asks an experienced electrician if VDrop can be a problem, my guess is they would concur thus giving some credibility to the measurements.

This answer from the FAQ addresses my earlier concern about the lack of mention of the gauge of the 'stock' cord--makes sense to me:

s it a fair comparison when the standard cable is just an 18 gauge cable when the Venom-3 has 12 gauge conductors? Is it fair that the Venom-3 uses high quality, heavy gauge solid brass contacts and the standard cable has flimsy contacts? Is it fair that the Venom-3 cable has crimped and soldered wire to contact connections while the standard cable uses cheap press-on contacts? Well, hell no it's not fair! But that is the whole point isn't it? Why would you expect a standard power cord, designed for low cost volume manufacturing to perform at the same level as one purpose built for high performance audio systems? Use a standard OEM cable that came in the box, with an unknown DTCD index or use a cable that is known to be high quality made with an actual MEASURED performance standard for DTCD? It's your decision.

And this also seems to be a reasonable response:

TCD is a foundational power delivery concept, not a power cord or an outlet -- not a make or a model. Replacing one stock power cord with a better aftermarket model on a CD player, pre-amp or amp is analogous to pouring one part clean water into four parts dirty water -- the "water" is still dirty. To get a clear idea of the capability of improved AC cords, it important to replace ALL of the cables that have low DTCD and are impeding current delivery. The integrity of the rest of local AC network should also be evaluated. One loose connection or significantly degraded AC contact point can obscure benefits elsewhere.

Looks like they have the Whitepaper available now...(I haven't read it yet)
http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-whitepaper.html

All in all it doesn't look they are trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes -at least not with respect to this comparison and to their low end $99 cord. Of the FAQ and little else I read they seem to be on the up and up with their answers and generally make sense to me.

mmadden28

BlueFox wrote: »

.. As we gain more knowledge, I expect in the future to see advertisements that cable 'X' will increase 'A', reduce'B', and eliminate 'C'. At that point we will be able to make meaningful comparisons between cables before we buy them, and have a good idea what we can expect; i.e. more 'A', less 'B', and no 'C' sounds better than the alternatives.

Sounds feasible to me. Kind of like the ratings on auto tires no?

LessisNevermore

Along the same topic, this video is kind of long, but you have two cable manufacturers cooperating to measure the previously unmeasurable. Apologies if it's been posted before.

Seminar video

DarqueKnight

I think that cable manufacturers, if they are going to discuss evaluation methods, should take care to use evaluation methods that can be duplicated and independently verified.

I am always turned off when I see a proprietary testing device. The only quasi-workaround for this is full mathematical theory disclosure where other people can derive the test results mathematically without the use of the proprietary test device.

LessisNevermore

There was a hinting of full disclosure at the end of the video. You can tell though, that they are tempted to sell this as a software product.

Can't really blame them, but then they wouldn't gain any ground with naysayers. i.e.; "They can make it say whatever they want", etc. Make it open source, and available to all manufacturers, and consumers alike.

jinjuku

LessisNevermore wrote: »

There was a hinting of full disclosure at the end of the video. You can tell though, that they are tempted to sell this as a software product.

Can't really blame them, but then they wouldn't gain any ground with naysayers. i.e.; "They can make it say whatever they want", etc. Make it open source, and available to all manufacturers, and consumers alike.

You mean like the breathalyzers and voting machines that were found to have buggy code?

LessisNevermore

jinjuku wrote: »

You mean like the breathalyzers and voting machines that were found to have buggy code?

Right on cue, and proving my point. Now go sit in the corner, before I give you something sharp to play with.

jinjuku

LessisNevermore wrote: »

Right on cue, and proving my point. Now go sit in the corner, before I give you something sharp to play with.

The point about making the algorithm available is so it can be reviewed independently. Same with voting machines and breathalyzers.

Diebold made certain claims about their voting machines. Claims that got the ever loving crap sued out of them because didn't stand up to independent code review.

It could even be done under NDA by an accredited organization. Shunyata would be in a relative better position by having some 3rd party, without the shine of bias, backing up what they say.

reeltrouble1

I just never could get wrapped around the idea that someone else needed to tell me what sounds good or matters in my rig.

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disneyjoe7

Why are we always trying to prove why or why not a cable sounds great? If it works for my ears I love it, could care less if someone can prove why or not.

dorokusai

Ted - The premise might sound good to you after the result works but you're no different really. You may have blindy tried it out but you still have the hype under your fingernails. Nobody is a leader on the end user retail side, sorry man. If you were the Unibomber I might believe that crap.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I just never could get wrapped around the idea that someone else needed to tell me what sounds good or matters in my rig.

RT1

Many people do not trust their ears. They need a guarantee of what is best otherwise they go insane in short order. This is why bose is in business. A good example of this is a switch mounted on a piece of equipment which the manufacturer says to set where it sounds best. Certain types of people can not deal with the issue of not "knowing" which position sounds best. They will work for months switching it back and forth and eventually trading the equipment for another type which has no such switch.
madmax

nedh84

madmax wrote: »

Many people do not trust their ears. They need a guarantee of what is best otherwise they go insane in short order. This is why bose is in business. A good example of this is a switch mounted on a piece of equipment which the manufacturer says to set where it sounds best. Certain types of people can not deal with the issue of not "knowing" which position sounds best. They will work for months switching it back and forth and eventually trading the equipment for another type which has no such switch.
madmax

Gosh my sub has one of those switches. It bugs the living hell out of me haha

reeltrouble1

dorokusai wrote: »

If you were the Unibomber I might believe that crap.

I have visited with him, of course, someone trained him.;)

If I have any shred of idealism left in me I suppose it would be some belief that hype does not pervade white papers, although, in a world of pitchmen even these must are questioned.

Leading me back to the rabbit hole, relying on me, and all that is me, and all that will continue to be me, even if there was no more me, what was me will remain as me, and what is you is now me.

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