A warm sounding $1,000 system

fallennomad

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to purchase a new sound system by the end of the year (a ways off, I know). I have $1,000 (up to $1,500) to spend on this system. Please help this newbie spend his money wisely

Room dimensions: 13'x14'
Purpose: Music (mostly oldies from 50s through 80s) and movies
Sound preferences: Warm sound (theater-like qualities), strong mids (bass not so important)
Preferred accessories: XM radio/iPod dock (not a deal breaker)
Notes: I need bookshelf speakers, no room for floorstanding ones. Also, I do not necessarily need to fill the room: I am using this in front of a computer nearly all of the time.

From what I've read in these forums, it seems like a good receiver to go with for my sound preferences would be a Denon or a Harman Kardon. I'd be grateful for any recommendations as to what you guys are using, for those of you whose aural preferences are in line with mine. So far, I have looked at the Denon AVR-890 and the Pioneer VSX-9040TXH, but am not sure what to think about them.

So basically, if you had $1,000 to spend on the last sound system you could ever buy (I don't think I can afford any upgrades for a long long time after this purchase), what would you recommend?

Some other random questions:
Should I spend (relatively) more on the receiver or the speakers?
How important is the subwoofer?

I know I'm asking a lot here, so I really do appreciate any and all insights and information you guys could help me out with

Face

HK receiver, Marantz player, LSi7's, and a small sub.

SivaNevets

LSI7, PSW111, Emu 0404-USB soundcard (playoff CD from your computer), NAD entry level integrate amp 40wpc

after comparing different options and owner of two emu0404 usb, i have to say this is an amazing product, ive heard $1000 DAC and they are not significantly better. play CD from your computer ull get some jitter but this thing will still make is sound better than most entry level CD player. plus you can enjoy all your music from your computer.

basically this is the setup im about to step into next year. psw111 is a great little musical sub for the money. u can get them dirty cheap from polk ebay direct (so is LSI7), they will fill the lower end, and make drum sound alive.

packetjones

Face wrote: »

HK receiver, Marantz player, LSi7's, and a small sub.

I agree with this. I have a HK and love it. The LSI's are great speakers as well.

wayne3burk

Find a nice pair of Dynaco A25s on craigslist or ebay - second choice is a nice pair of KLH 17s.

you can't go wong

-- wayne --

danz1906

Marantz receiver,,,,Marantz player,,,,Kef Iq10 speakers.

Try Accessories4less.

debussyj

I've got a Marantz Sr9600 driving my Lsi system. Very sweet and warm. Love it! You might want to check out the NAD or Cambridge Audio products. Best of luck. DJ

Big Dawg

I think that anonymouse has some good ideas with the SDA CRS+ and the sweet integrated.

Or, buy everything used. You can build a very impressive rig that way and with your budget.

For example, you could buy the SDAs above, or save some money and buy some Polk Monitor 7 speakers for $100 or less, and add $200 for upgrading the tweeters and crossovers. You will have outstanding musical speakers.

Add nice integrated, maybe something like this Cambridge Audio Azur 540A for about $250:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1287072130&/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-540A-V2.0

That leaves you with $500-$1,000 for a source and music. I'd buy a Squeezebox Classic for about $200 used and a nice simple DAC, like an Adcom GDA600 ($100-$150 used).

The, just sit back, pour a nice single malt, and enjoy the music.

mhardy6647

Find a used, vintage harman/kardon hk430 and a pair of Polk Audio Monitor Series Model 10s. Add a CD player or turntable and cartridge (new or used) and pocket a lot of change from your kilobuck.

fallennomad

Thanks everybody for all of your input, I really appreciate it!

I'm quite intimidated by the idea of mods and such...I am quite new to this. Are these modifications difficult? I'm afraid of **** things up and would like to avoid modifications as I'm awful at those things

I never thought to use a DAC like the Peachtree. Thanks a lot for bringing that up. I'll probably try to get me one of those somewhere down the line.

I was thinking of going with newer equipment like the TSi, LSi, or Monitor series: they seem to be easier to attain. So far, I'm looking at the following:

Front Speakers: LSi7 - $420
Center Channel: CS20 - $200
Subwoofer: PSW 110 - $140
Receiver: Marantz SR5004 - $400
Total: $1160

I know people are recommending HK and Marantz here, but I'm not sure how to find the "vintage" stuff. That's mostly why I'm sticking with newer models that I can see and purchase easily.

I'm just going off of the prices on eBay. These components seem relatively easy to obtain. Does anybody see anything wrong with this set up? I am thinking that the great speakers will make up for the small subwoofer (since I'm more concerned with nice mids than heavy bass), and that the receiver is high enough quality that the LSi7s won't be wasted.

Face

That Marantz is only rated for 8ohm operation. You would be better off with a newer HK as most are rated for 4ohms.

fallennomad

Another newbie question: is wattage important for the presence of the speakers in near-field listening (correct me if I'm using the term incorrectly)? I would assume that wattage is only one part the equation, with the quality of the components weighing in quite heavily.

Would I be correct in thinking that the lower the resistance, the more efficient the signal? Thusly leading to better sound?

mhardy6647

fallennomad wrote: »

I know people are recommending HK and Marantz here, but I'm not sure how to find the "vintage" stuff. That's mostly why I'm sticking with newer models that I can see and purchase easily.

Whereabouts (roughly speaking) are you located?

fallennomad

New York City, but I don't get around much on account of my injuries. That's why I do my research online and such.

SivaNevets

fallennomad wrote: »

Thanks everybody for all of your input, I really appreciate it!

I'm quite intimidated by the idea of mods and such...I am quite new to this. Are these modifications difficult? I'm afraid of **** things up and would like to avoid modifications as I'm awful at those things

I never thought to use a DAC like the Peachtree. Thanks a lot for bringing that up. I'll probably try to get me one of those somewhere down the line.

I was thinking of going with newer equipment like the TSi, LSi, or Monitor series: they seem to be easier to attain. So far, I'm looking at the following:

Front Speakers: LSi7 - $420
Center Channel: CS20 - $200
Subwoofer: PSW 110 - $140
Receiver: Marantz SR5004 - $400
Total: $1160

I know people are recommending HK and Marantz here, but I'm not sure how to find the "vintage" stuff. That's mostly why I'm sticking with newer models that I can see and purchase easily.

I'm just going off of the prices on eBay. These components seem relatively easy to obtain. Does anybody see anything wrong with this set up? I am thinking that the great speakers will make up for the small subwoofer (since I'm more concerned with nice mids than heavy bass), and that the receiver is high enough quality that the LSi7s won't be wasted.

why do u need to bother with a centre? and cs20 do not match with lsi7. i still strongly recommended the emu 0404 usb, the DAC and sound came out from that box is amazing. i tried to compare with my denon avr789 (spdif out to avr and use avr as preamp), denon is not nearly even half as good as the emu for music.

also consider the psw111, they are better for music. (while the psw110 is a 50/50 ht/music sub)

fallennomad

I neglected to say that I am connecting a PS3 to the receiver (along with a PC and a Mac) and would be needing surround sound. Sorry about that. I already have a Creative X-Fi soundcard for gaming on the computer, and unfortunately the iMac is stuck with whatever onboard audio is on it (I'm connecting the iMac via S/PDIF for DD/DTS movie soundtracks).

With that in mind, now I wonder if perhaps the PSW 110 would be suitable, considering that I am using this for movies as well? I do care more about music more though...the only problem is that the PSW111 is not on the Polk eBay store: I much prefer to order from one source as everything ships out and arrives on the same day, making it much easier for me to arrange the receipt of the delivery.

I suppose that the LSi7 would be complemented only with the LSiC? Actually, I just found the CSi A4 on the eBay store, does that match up? But more importantly, because I'm interested in learning, how can I tell if certain speakers are an acoustic match or not?

cnh

If you're going to do surround--you may need some external amplification with 3 LSis up front. Something to consider....In which case the Marantz SR500X would serve as a pre for a 3 channel power amp? I assume that unit has pre-outs?

A lot of the suggestions above are for a two channel system!

cnh

fallennomad

$1,500 is my absolute maximum, so if there isn't much of a sound quality difference between spending $1,500 and $1,000, I would of course spend less money. I don't imagine that the extra $500 would do very much.

That AVR 1600 looks good. I am concerned though about it being 50W. I checked out the implications of wattage here: http://hubpages.com/hub/Speaker-Watt

But I'm still not sure. I don't think that volume is the same as "presence". On my Logitech Z-5500 setup (62W fronts), with some 69W JVC bookshelf speakers from ages ago, it seems to require a lot of volume to create any real presence. More specifically, a lot of the detail in music is lost at low volume. I feel that a step up to the AVR 2600 at 65W would be good, but then again, I am a complete newbie. Am I way off base here?

fallennomad

Zero,

It certainly helped out by quite a lot, actually. Thanks so much for that clarification! I sort of figured as much: that quality is more important than wattage. Sort of like how more megapixels don't mean better pictures.

So, it seems like so far I'm going for...
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
RTi A3s for the front

Does the CS20 match the RTi? Otherwise, I suppose I'll just have to pick up the CSi A4s.

I've heard of bad subwoofers having "messy" or "loose" bass, which is undesirable. Is the PSW 110 sufficient for my needs? I'm not all that big on heavy thumping bass anyhow. By the way, what do you guys think of the Polk Room Optimizer for the sub? Is it worth the bump up to DSW line?

ZeroCoolPolks

COMPARE a HK TO a YAMAHA: ADVERTISED RATINGS, WEIGHT, PRICE BENCH MARKS, BANG FOR THE BUCK & OF COURSE GOTTA GO SOMEWHERE AND LISTEN.......



Harman/Kardon DPR 1005 A/V Receiver

Power Rating (per channel): 70 watts, into 8 ohms
Frequency Response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz

Weight (pounds): 23.1
Price: $1,499

Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 30.8 watts; 1% distortion at 47.9 watts

This graph shows that the DPR 1005's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 91.9 watts and 1% distortion at 95.0 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 40.4 watts and 1% distortion at 118.5 watts.


==========================================================================


Rated max power: 95Wpc, 20Hz-20kHz, 8 ohms
Max THD: 0.09%

Weight: 26.2 lbs
Price: $550

This graph shows that the RX-V663’s left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads continuously at 1 kHz, reached 0.1% distortion at 166.7 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reached 0.1% distortion at 218.0 watts and 1% distortion at 245.9 watts.

With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, the amp reached 0.1% distortion at 60.0 watts and 1% distortion at 74.9 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, it reached 0.1% distortion at 47.3 watts and 1% distortion at 57.8 watts.

Specs or advertised Power ratings should break the rating for 2 channels for about a nanosecond. Gotta love that marketing garbage.

Notice anything here?

nedh84

fallennomad I think the subs people are recommending are generally going to make your music and also your home theater sound better (more accurate). You don't want a "loose" sub, the sole purpose of those is just to be a cheap way of creating simple loud bass (what you don't want). They may be loud or create that thump but they won't give you an accurate or musical response.

Subs don't need to be turned up loud but if you are going to get one then you may as well invest in a musical one (accurate sub).

Kinda tough to explain but I hope that helps....



Also if something sounds good with music then its typically going to sound good with home theater. Music is hard to reproduce, HT isn't nearly as hard.

nedh84

BTW NAD, HK, Marantz are all great products. Warm sounding. Lots of deals out there for HK and Marantz


Also bear in mind that the Rti series of speakers are generally brighter. Some love them for music but I've heard they excel for HT. Lsi speakers are on the warm side, mostly used for music from what I've read (I'm sure they would be great at HT). You should definitely listen to them both before making a decision. Also go to some boutique shop and maybe watch some movies with both. Completely different sound.

Check out the Monitor 70's and 60's. They are a good option and very affordable.

You gotta have a listen before pulling the trigger imo.

Monitor 60's are on sale today at newegg for 109 each I believe.

fallennomad

Ah, interesting point about music vs HT. Thanks for clearing that up too. With that in mind, I guess it's between the PSW 111 and...what do you guys think of the DSW microPRO 1000?

Hmmm.....I'm mostly concerned about how music sounds. I will try to make it out to a Best Buy some time to listen to the difference between the RTi and the LSi series, but if what you say is right, I will be going with the LSi.

The only problem is that getting the fronts and center as LSi is kinda costly, leaving me not very much wiggle room for anything else. Considering that the RTi is bright, that leaves me with the TSi. Any thoughts on those? The Monitor series are sold out on NewEgg, and I don't think Best Buy has them (that's the only place I can go to listen).

nedh84

The TSi series and Monitor series are almost identical except for cosmetic differences. They are on the warm side.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290206&Tpk=polk%20monitor%2060b

On newegg search for monitor 60b or 60c depending if you want black or cherry. Promo code for the monitor 60b is EMCYTZT103 . Deal expires at 11:59PM PDT on Thursday, 8/19/2010


Also if you end up prefering the LSi series, you don't have to purchase everything at once. I mean fronts and a center is good. You can fill in the rears later. Can also buy the sub later. If possible try to match your center with your fronts.

I originally organized my system for HT and I find myself listening to music 90% of the time. IMO build with music in mind.


Oh make sure whatever AVR you buy has Pre-Outs. Gives you the option to change your amplification later on.

http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-SR7002-Surround-Receiver/dp/tech-data/B000X14W4G/ref=de_a_smtd

That Marantz is on a huge sale but ask around the forum to see if any polkies like it. I wonder if it will drive 4ohm LSis

SivaNevets

fallennomad wrote: »

Ah, interesting point about music vs HT. Thanks for clearing that up too. With that in mind, I guess it's between the PSW 111 and...what do you guys think of the DSW microPRO 1000?

Hmmm.....I'm mostly concerned about how music sounds. I will try to make it out to a Best Buy some time to listen to the difference between the RTi and the LSi series, but if what you say is right, I will be going with the LSi.

The only problem is that getting the fronts and center as LSi is kinda costly, leaving me not very much wiggle room for anything else. Considering that the RTi is bright, that leaves me with the TSi. Any thoughts on those? The Monitor series are sold out on NewEgg, and I don't think Best Buy has them (that's the only place I can go to listen).

dsw micropro 1000 is a great sub.also check out the dsw pro 400 in between.
not sure about bestbuy in US, in toronto you cant hear anything against the noisy backgroud.

ive never heard the LSi, but i know LSI7 will be my next upgrade.
i have RTI6 and CSIa4+m10 for HT for over a year now, and just got the monitor 40 series II two days ago. i have to say being 1 level step down from the RTI line, they exceed my expectation for their musicality for their price ($150). i do like them better for music when compare to the RTI6.

checkout my pics
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105543

im pretty sure newegg will have them back instock again, maybe series II only.

my suggestion for you is u can either get 5 monitor speakers at once, or just grab a pair of LSI7 and get the LSIC centre later. keep in mind that LSIC is not a great centre.

SivaNevets

nedh84 wrote: »

The TSi series and Monitor series are almost identical except for cosmetic differences. They are on the warm side.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290206&Tpk=polk%20monitor%2060b


I originally organized my system for HT and I find myself listening to music 90% of the time. IMO build with music in mind.

.

thats a interesting point you brought up. i got my RTI set up last summer (its where my polk journey started) i thought i was gonna use them for music 90% of time, but instead since they hook up with the TV and HTPC, me and my gaf use them for HT 90% of time. And i listen to music in front of my computer 90% of time

nedh84

Haha a couple months ago when I still had a gf we were doing a lot of HT SivaNevets

My appreciation for music has been growing since then

cnh

fallennomad wrote: »

Ah, interesting point about music vs HT. Thanks for clearing that up too. With that in mind, I guess it's between the PSW 111 and...what do you guys think of the DSW microPRO 1000?

Hmmm.....I'm mostly concerned about how music sounds. I will try to make it out to a Best Buy some time to listen to the difference between the RTi and the LSi series, but if what you say is right, I will be going with the LSi.

The only problem is that getting the fronts and center as LSi is kinda costly, leaving me not very much wiggle room for anything else. Considering that the RTi is bright, that leaves me with the TSi. Any thoughts on those? The Monitor series are sold out on NewEgg, and I don't think Best Buy has them (that's the only place I can go to listen).

In an ideal world....Two Lsi7s (first) and a (used) HK 254 (predecessor to the HK 2600--that STILL has pre-outs). Cost about 700 or so....then at the MicroPro 1000 (or 2000)...more or less the same sub--and VERY fast and tight for 'music'. Spend about 300 more on a used power amp (150-200 wats x 2 to 8 ohms and more in 4 ohms--or plan ahead and get a 3 channel amp for a little more?)

Then, when you have some more cash--add the LSI center. And you've got a really nice system that will serve all your needs for many years to come. I'm basically in agreement with Zero.

Recently, though, I've been running some Rti-4s with a Harman Kardon 3490 and I can't quite get rid of the brightness of the small bookshelves...yet when I slap some KLH Model 6s onto the same receiver--INSTANT warmth? And it does not matter what else I do to the 4s--different wires, different sources--etc. In fact, I'm pretty 'dumbfounded' by this?

It should be noted that the Rti-6s (or the successor RTi-A3s) have more low end and range...so maybe that makes a difference here?

cnh

nedh84

If your room is symmetrical you might not need a center unless you were gonna go with the full 5.1 or 7.1 setup. Good 2 channel speakers image voice to the center of the stage pretty well.

Then you can get a NAD stereo amp

fallennomad

First things first: I finally went to my local Best Buy to do some listening! (Siva, you're right, it's hard to hear anything with all that noise anyhow)

Their listening room was worthless: they had a whole bunch of "Definitive" speakers, which - while I haven't a clue whether they're any good - I wasn't interested in. After some searching, I finally found a Polk TSi 100 set. They sounded awful, so I checked out what they were hooked up to. I looked around to see if any employees were going to yell at me, and there were none, so I cracked open the little cabinet they have. Inside I found a Yamaha receiver. I haven't a clue how good it is. In retrospect, I should've checked what model it was (if that's even possible without taking it out to turn around and whatnot).

Anyway, those TSi 100s sounded pretty bad to my ears. It was decidedly bright sounding. They sounded even worse than my crappy little Logitech Z-5500s! I am hoping that they are entirely due to a bad receiver or something. I listened to the radio, and while it was slightly staticy, I could tell that my favorite oldies station wasn't being represented properly. It was almost as if there was all treble and highs and no mids.

Actually, when I think about it...I should've checked the EQ and such...maybe I can go back some time and give a whirl again.

So, on to all the immense amount of information and valuable advice everyone is giving me!


My plans so far, with all of you guys' input, is to purchase two good fronts (for music) and a decent center (for movies; I just tried watching a movie without the center and can't stand it ), with a small but tight 'music' sub (which I can purchase at a later time).

As for the receiver, I'm still not really sure what preouts do for me. I would assume that having a separate amplifier would do something good for my sound quality? My impression though is that another amp would just boost my power, which isn't that important for quality as it is for loudness. I am a little confused

But all in all, I don't think I'll be worried about getting an amp on account of the lack of space. I don't imagine that it's a strictly essential piece of equipment, right?

I do most of my listening square in between the speakers, so those LSis sound good, but unfortunately they seem a little costly and not a viable solution according to Zero, on account of it requiring better receivers. In which case, the RTi A's still seem to be the winner here.

I can't find a HK 264 on eBay, at least not one that I trust. The problem with all these recommendations for older models is that I haven't a clue where to find them.

So far, it seems like I am leaning towards the RTi series, which automatically means that I have to get a matching center, right? In which case, I'd have to go for the CSi A4. Finally, just from reading about them, the DSW sub is growing on me (they are small, thus saving me much needed space).

I keep hearing good things about the Monitors, which mean that the TSi should be good...I definitely have to go back to check on them, because I refuse to believe that they could sound that awful lol....

nedh84

They definitely shouldn't sound awful. Where do you live again?