Hot Amps

heiney9

Yep, you got it. It's that simple. That's not to say it's an absolute but, most will find simple topologies that tend to run hot have the more pleasing attributes.

Of course those that prefer the edgy sound of ICE modules and class D, H, G topoligies are going to disagree. . And they will argue these types can be made to sound warm and inviting, etc. There is nothing I personally like better than the sound coming from a simple, single ended pure class A amp. There is nothing like it.

H9

rubin

Well my question has been answered. All the amplifiers,receivers I've owned ran warm to very warm but not uncomfortable to put your hand on. I can"t handle edgy sound.Class A or tube amps would probably be best for me but can't afford them.I do however use a tube preamp to help out.

nooshinjohn

rubin wrote: »

Well my question has been answered. All the amplifiers,receivers I've owned ran warm to very warm but not uncomfortable to put your hand on. I can"t handle edgy sound.Class A or tube amps would probably be best for me but can't afford them.I do however use a tube preamp to help out.

Solid state amp and lots of tubes (CDP, Preamp) is a match made in heaven:cool:

zingo

Fongolio wrote: »

My Carver TFM-45 runs very cool and yet is very warm sounding. Go figure.

My SET 845 tube amp is the opposite. It's power transformers run VERY hot, but it's not overly warm in sound; but that's what 1kV will get you.

megasat16

I like Hot Cars, Hot Coffee, Hot Girl, and Hot Anything. If it's not HOT, it must be really cool.

HOT Amps are HOT coz they are like HOT Girls - some wearing extremely short mini skirt. As such, some HOT amps don't have adequate Heat Sinking and Heat Ventilation.

Some supposedly HOT Amps are actually Cool coz they have that oversized and humongous big **** HEAT Sinks on their Sides; an eye candy!

megasat16

mhardy6647 wrote: »

No crossover distortion in Class A. Never had it, never will.

That's the whole point of wanting to have a Nice Class A SE amp! But it doesn't meant it will trump every aspects of sounds reproduction. It's ideal if made it right and small watts Class A amps are very pleasing if paired with efficient speakers.

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

It's ideal if made it right and small watts Class A amps are very pleasing if paired with efficient speakers.

It's very pleasing with mid to high watts w/inefficient speakers too. SE class A comes in all wattage levels for all different speakers, not just low power for efficient speakers.

H9

P.s. And yes, you have to pay to play.

mhardy6647

There's a local fellow (who sometimes posts here) with a pair of the (IIRC) 300 watt Mark Levinson (really Mark Levinson) Class A amps (I believe they're No. 33 amps). They look like space heaters. They are really nice amplifiers, as well.

megasat16

mhardy6647 wrote: »

There's a local fellow (who sometimes posts here) with a pair of the (IIRC) 300 watt Mark Levinson (really Mark Levinson) Class A amps (I believe they're No. 33 amps). They look like space heaters. They are really nice amplifiers, as well.

Yep, the 33 are the heaviest REAL Levinson Madrigal ever made. I think I know the person you mentioned. I wish I could own one but thinking about 400LBs for each monobloc scares the daylight out of me.

It's a coincident that the real Mark Levinson (the man) doesn't make them but the company he left behind.

But Levinson (company) builds are top notch in the Industry. I like their source and preamp but not the amp so much. I've moved onto different things since.

lanchile

rubin wrote: »

Is it true or myth that hotter running power amps also sound "warmer"?

Nope! amps that run hotter do not mean they sound "warmer" it can be they are class A amps since most of them run hot ,but again I have also seen a lot class A/B amps that run really hot, some commercial amps have poor design. The worse enemy for electronics is heat, this heat not only will "shorter the life of some parts" like: resistors, capacitors even if they are 105, cooked board (bad connections), etc,etc but it will affect the sound too.I have build many amps and the amps that I build I make sure they run "fresh" except when I push them really hard and then the amp gets warmer. I have used some of NXV200 amps from Aussie amplifiers, they are excellent amps and easy to build. I also have build some diy amps from Diyaudio.com. many good projects and schematics of amps.

heiney9

lanchile wrote: »

Nope! amps that run hotter do not mean they sound "warmer" it can be they are class A amps since most of them run hot ,but again I have also seen a lot class A/B amps that run really hot, some commercial amps have poor design. The worse enemy for electronics is heat, this heat not only will "shorter the life of some parts" like: resistors, capacitors even if they are 105, cooked board (bad connections), etc,etc but it will affect the sound too.I have build many amps and the amps that I build I make sure they run "fresh" except when I push them really hard and then the amp gets warmer. I have used some of NXV200 amps from Aussie amplifiers, they are excellent amps and easy to build. I also have build some diy amps from Diyaudio.com. many good projects and schematics of amps.

Simply not true if the designer uses the proper parts. End of story.

H9

lanchile

heiney9 wrote: »

Simply not true if the designer uses the proper parts. End of story.

H9

What is not true? as I mentioned before "some commercial amps have poor design" and that includes under rated parts. why because they try to save as much money as they can.if they can save $5 dollars in one amp and they sell thousands of amps... do the math. most of commercial amps are cheap piece of crabs! and the good ones are way over priced. I know this because I see it everyday.I work fixing amps,TVs,stereos,etc. My hobby is building amps and playing with electronics. and I keep saying "heat is the enemy " for electronics. and now that is the end of story!!!;)

heiney9

lanchile wrote: »

What is not true?

The bolded part in my reply

lanchile wrote: »

My hobby is building amps and playing with electronics. and I keep saying "heat is the enemy " for electronics. and now that is the end of story!!!;)

Heat CAN be the enemy if you have a poor design and cheap parts. But there are many, many higher end amps, mostly single ended class A, that run extremely hot and are dead reliable for 20+ years. So for you to just say "heat is the enemy" is NOT the end of the story. . Tube amps can run very hot and they seem to be even more reliable than common mid-fi solid state.

Carry on

H9

lanchile

heiney9 wrote: »

The bolded part in my reply



Heat CAN be the enemy if you have a poor design and cheap parts. But there are many, many higher end amps, mostly single ended class A, that run extremely hot and are dead reliable for 20+ years. So for you to just say "heat is the enemy" is NOT the end of the story. . Tube amps can run very hot and they seem to be even more reliable than common mid-fi solid state.

Carry on

H9

Why tubes get weak with time? can it be the "HEAT" that start burning Little by little the inside phosphor coating? and then you have to adjust the bias every now and then to compensate the weakness of tubes. Why light bulbs burn? can it be the intense "Heat" that the filament can take and all that heat gets the filament weak and it burns?
Why do speakers blow? can it be the extra "HEAT" for any reason to the voice coil that burn the thin wire?
Well as you can see HEAT is not so good for electronics.

heiney9

So the original thread is about amps and you extrapolate to all electrical devices. Are you a politician? .

I'm simply talking about amps in my discussion which is the topic of this thread. I've know some tubes to last 20 years in day to day use.

H9

nooshinjohn

lanchile wrote: »

Why tubes get weak with time? can it be the "HEAT" that start burning Little by little the inside phosphor coating? and then you have to adjust the bias every now and then to compensate the weakness of tubes. Why light bulbs burn? can it be the intense "Heat" that the filament can take and all that heat gets the filament weak and it burns?
Why do speakers blow? can it be the extra "HEAT" for any reason to the voice coil that burn the thin wire?
Well as you can see HEAT is not so good for electronics.

When you go outside in the summertime, does your skin not burn and you drink tons of water trying to stay cool? I guess heat is the enemy of people too. The logic you used to explain your comments would suggest heat has damaged the electrical connections in your brain as well.

Proper care given to your gear can negate or eliminate the risk of heat damage to electronics, just as sunscreen can reduce or eliminate sun damage to your skin. You might want to try some.

lanchile

heiney9 wrote: »

So the original thread is about amps and you extrapolate to all electrical devices. Are you a politician? .

I'm simply talking about amps in my discussion which is the topic of this thread. I've know some tubes to last 20 years in day to day use.

H9

lol. ok now apply more heat to those tubes and lets see if they will last 20 years.

lanchile

nooshinjohn wrote: »

When you go outside in the summertime, does your skin not burn and you drink tons of water trying to stay cool? I guess heat is the enemy of people too. The logic you used to explain your comments would suggest heat has damaged the electrical connections in your brain as well.

Proper care given to your gear can negate or eliminate the risk of heat damage to electronics, just as sunscreen can reduce or eliminate sun damage to your skin. You might want to try some.

of course "PROPER CARE" given to a gear can negate or eliminate the risk of heat damage to electronics. but my point here is HEAT is not good for most of electronics.I am not saying it can not be avoid...I am saying it should be avoid as much as it can be!!!!

nooshinjohn

lanchile wrote: »

of course "PROPER CARE" given to a gear can negate or eliminate the risk of heat damage to electronics. but my point here is HEAT is not good for most of electronics.I am not saying it can not be avoid...I am saying it should be avoid as much as it can be!!!!

Heat is beneficial to audio electronics so long as it is considered in the design and is managed well through proper care(placement, ventilation, not blocking fans/vents etc.)

My system sounds best after about an hour of warm up time. This tells me that heat has an important role in the sonic signature of a particular piece of gear.

lanchile

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Heat is beneficial to audio electronics so long as it is considered in the design and is managed well through proper care(placement, ventilation, not blocking fans/vents etc.)

My system sounds best after about an hour of warm up time. This tells me that heat has an important role in the sonic signature of a particular piece of gear.

ok, so "IF" Heat is so BENEFICIAL for audio, WHY do you need "proper" placement, ventilation, fans, vents?:rolleyes:

lanchile

xcapri79 wrote: »

It is a given that heat and the cold are enviromental factors that are the enemy of electronics. That is why it is important to specify the operating temperature range of the equipment and select materials and design accordingly. Thermal management is a very important aspect concerning the electronics design. Not only is parts selection important, but so is the design of the circuit boards and cooling methods.

The Military Electronic Reliability Design Handbook is a great reference on this subject.

http://klabs.org/DEI/References/design_guidelines/content/mil_specs/mil_hdbk_338b.pdf

Well,Thanks. I guess I was not so Koo-Koo after all!;)

Erik Tracy

xcapri79 wrote: »

It is a given that heat and the cold are enviromental factors that are the enemy of electronics. That is why it is important to specify the operating temperature range of the equipment and select materials and design accordingly. Thermal management is a very important aspect concerning the electronics design. Not only is parts selection important, but so is the design of the circuit boards and cooling methods.

The Military Electronic Reliability Design Handbook is a great reference on this subject.

http://klabs.org/DEI/References/design_guidelines/content/mil_specs/mil_hdbk_338b.pdf

The link crusader at it again.....

Somehow, I don't think that a home application is the same as designing for battlefield conditions. Mil-spec parts are designed to run in adverse conditions. Your 'normal' home setup is not at extreme temps or subjected to high 'g's or vibrations.

I think you are spreading fear and mis-information.

Erik Tracy

xcapri79 wrote: »

You are welcome, but I'm afraid that good science and engineering may be too much for some on here to handle.

Please...'good science'?

Please share the 'data' (and a link, of course) that proves that commercial audio tube products have a lower MTBF ( you know what that means right? cuz you are a scientific expert) than SS home audio products.

Please also provide 'data' and a link, that proves home audio tube products will induce failures in adjacently located SS devices because of their adverse heat generation.

The selection of parts and devices is application specific. Somehow drawing a correlation to military applications and home audio is grasping at straws to score a point.

lanchile

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Please...'good science'?

Please share the 'data' (and a link, of course) that proves that commercial audio tube products have a lower MTBF ( you know what that means right? cuz you are a scientific expert) than SS home audio products.

Please also provide 'data' and a link, that proves home audio tube products will induce failures in adjacently located SS devices because of their adverse heat generation.

The selection of parts and devices is application specific. Somehow drawing a correlation to military applications and home audio is grasping at straws to score a point.

lol. you do not need to provide "data" just read the instructional manual that came with your amp... (unless it is a diy amp like mine) for sure it will say, it will "need" enough ventilation for proper operation.;)

Erik Tracy

lanchile wrote: »

lol. you do not need to provide "data" just read the instructional manual that came with your amp... (unless it is a diy amp like mine) for sure it will say, it will "need" enough ventilation for proper operation.;)

Precisely....when a unit is designed for a particular application - say...oh...home audio...and you then operate the unit within its design parameters, then you should expect it to provide satisfactory performance over its lifetime.

But, to post links to threads to military apps and to somehow posit that tubes are inherently less reliable that SS devices, or, that they induce failures in adjacent components - that is mis-information and not "science" at all.

Also, depending on the specific individuals in question, who like to toss out the 'science' trump card, then it is quite appropriate to then pose the counter challenge for data, and the ever important internet link.

nooshinjohn

lanchile wrote: »

ok, so "IF" Heat is so BENEFICIAL for audio, WHY do you need "proper" placement, ventilation, fans, vents?:rolleyes:

Using your body again as an example.... if you assume "room temperature" you are dead, correct? Nominal operating temperature of the human body is 98.6 degrees, and death can occur at anything above 105 degrees. Through regulating heat, the body does a great job of controlling heat and has many mechanisms to maintain and control temperatures within a range that is optimal for survial. If you lock yourself in a car in the heat of a hot, humid summer day, you will begin to sweat, slowly at first, but this will change in intensity as distress to the body increases. Sweating profusely will give way to no sweat at all, coma as the body tries to protect vital organs and death.

The opposite happens in extreme cold, with shivering giving way to uncontrollable shaking... well you get the picture.

In electronics, covering vents, fans and other heat controlling features leads to to much heat, just like the body. And operating at "room temperature" does not always provide for the best sound quality, therefore allowing things to "warm up" can be beneficial to a particular component such as an amp, preamp or CDP. Did I say heat does not cause damage??? No, as it most certainly can. What I am saying is that properly taken into account in the design and care of electronic components, it may very well be a benefit and not a flaw.

lanchile

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Using your body again as an example.... if you assume "room temperature" you are dead, correct? Nominal operating temperature of the human body is 98.6 degrees, and death can occur at anything above 105 degrees. Through regulating heat, the body does a great job of controlling heat and has many mechanisms to maintain and control temperatures within a range that is optimal for survial. If you lock yourself in a car in the heat of a hot, humid summer day, you will begin to sweat, slowly at first, but this will change in intensity as distress to the body increases. Sweating profusely will give way to no sweat at all, coma as the body tries to protect vital organs and death.

The opposite happens in extreme cold, with shivering giving way to uncontrollable shaking... well you get the picture.

In electronics, covering vents, fans and other heat controlling features leads to to much heat, just like the body. And operating at "room temperature" does not always provide for the best sound quality, therefore allowing things to "warm up" can be beneficial to a particular component such as an amp, preamp or CDP. Did I say heat does not cause damage??? No, as it most certainly can. What I am saying is that properly taken into account in the design and care of electronic components, it may very well be a benefit and not a flaw.

lol. I know this very well thanks. I was just trying to make my point here!

nooshinjohn

lanchile wrote: »

lol. I know this very well thanks. I was just trying to make my point here!

If the point you were making is that you do not know what you are talking about... Job Well DONE!!!:p;)

You and the X-man should start your own forum together.

lanchile

nooshinjohn wrote: »

If the point you were making is that you do not know what you are talking about... Job Well DONE!!!:p;)

You and the X-man should start your own forum together.

lol.This is not science it is a fact! Heat is the enemy of electronics unless it is a heater lol. of course tubes are less reliable and also they need more maintenance. but again, What do I know.

Erik Tracy

lanchile wrote: »

lol.This is not science it is a fact! Heat is the enemy of electronics unless it is a heater lol. of course tubes are less reliable and also they need more maintenance. but again, What do I know.

And again...for home electronic applications, do you have data and a link that proves that SS audio devices have a higher MTBF than tube devices?

Taking 'facts' out of context and for the application in question is not good 'science' and merely conjecture.